Assassin hybrids officially NOT OP

[PolakToma]

http://dulfy.net/2012/04/07/paxeast-2012-swtor-q-a-panel/#more-2605

 

Q: I know in MMOs class balance is always an ongoing thing, it is never perfected. Most of the changes in 1.2 I agree with but shadow/assassin tank hybrids – 400k damage and lots of protection. TLDR: there is a shadow/assassin tank hybrid spec I feel is overpowered- are the devs ok with this?

 

A: If there are hybrid specs that are outperforming the metrics we have set for them, we are certainly going to take a look at that. As of right now, we have not found hyrbid specs we have not addressed yet. As of right now, we don’t see it right now. You may see a flash of brillance from a particular spec in one particular situation/warzone but overall we consider all the specs are performing in line with each other.

 

 

---------------------

Its finally nice to see the devs say screw off to all the people crying Tanksins are OP, its not like I can walk up as one and completely stun lock and kill you in 5-10 seconds like Smugglers, as these people would have everyone think, it takes awhile for Tanksins to get a kill and you have plenty of options to run away if you think the fight isnt going the way youd like, and alot of those DPS numbers come from crazy Wither spam in the right places.

Edited April 7, 2012 by PolakToma

[verfallen]

Forums like the class one is a very bad place to try and get valid opinion about class balance. For every 1 relevant post, you get 5 people threatening everywhere that if their beloved class gets a single nerf, they are unsubbing, then 5 others that can't play for **** that are going to be : "yeh...nerf them and buff ME!!!!"

 

To which erupt in flame of L2P (which are or aren't warranted) and dev bashing about how they are totally blind to not see things as the poster.

 

 

That said nice to see devs Q&A about this. Altough its not hybrid per say, just full Darkness spec and DPS gear.

Edited April 7, 2012 by verfallen

[unclekaula]

I think they are OP. Not really the dmg they can do or the protection, its that the class has too much utility.

[trakata]

I think they are OP. Not really the dmg they can do or the protection, its that the class has too much utility.

 

May I introduce you to my friends the Vanguard and Powertech?

 

Poster before is right, though. You are never going to get a an unbiased, rational opinion on an MMO class forum.

[SenatorPalpaTANG]

Altough its not hybrid per say, just full Darkness spec and DPS gear.

Yeah, I think this is a semantics issue. The questioner meant to ask about Darkness specs+DPS gear, but instead the dev response is about hybrid specs.

 

That doesn't mean tank sins won't see some readjustment.

[Cowflab]

Yeah, I think this is a semantics issue. The questioner meant to ask about Darkness specs+DPS gear, but instead the dev response is about hybrid specs.

 

That doesn't mean tank sins won't see some readjustment.

 

Wrong, reread the article...

 

You may see a flash of brillance from a particular spec in one particular situation/warzone but overall we consider all the specs are performing in line with each other.

 

In particular.

[SenatorPalpaTANG]

Wrong, reread the article...

 

 

 

In particular.

 

Darkness spec + DPS gear is more than just a spec issue though, and that quote is way too broad to draw any conclusions from. Darkness in tank gear is far from imbalanced for example.

[Astarica]

It's not like devs are all knowing or you wouldn't need patches in the first place.

 

That said when you say hybrid I'd think they're thinking about 27/0/14 or other variants, which really isn't that overpowered because without Wither, all you do is put up pretty numbers but you're missing about 1/3 of your utility without Wither. I can easily see the dev thinking he was being asked about the spec in question and say it's not overpowered, and that'd be correct. 31/0/10 would usually be considered as a 'pure' spec, since I don't know of too many people doing 41/0/0 specs out there.

[Krytycal]

People need to stop calling 31/0/10 hybrids.

[AGx-Spike]

People need to stop calling 31/0/10 hybrids.

 

^This because technically its a full on tank spec. What should we do with the other 10 points? Dump them into (arguably) uselss or less preferred skills we skipped to begin with?

 

Anyway, for anyone saying any class is OP, I urge you, go play it. Shadow was my first 50, followed by Guardian. Right now, I'm working on a Sage and Sentinal (to round out Jedi classes). I don't feel that Shadow is OP. For one reason, I know the metrics of the class from playing it and I know how and when to take advantage of a Shadow when I'm on my guardian.

 

Honestly, my guardian was 44 before I even started my Shadow and when Shadows/Sins tried to 1v1 me I used to laugh because I almost always won that fight easily. Once I played a Shadow I found out why but also learned how to combat guardians (having been one). I'm not saying there aren't balance issues, even in Shadow/Assassin but "overpowered" is a bit of a stretch.

Edited April 8, 2012 by AGx-Spike

[Astarica]

On a scale of 1-10, 31/0/10 is something like 8/10/10 on offense/defense/utility. Problem is the latter two categories are inherently defensive in nature. Since every form of DPS, including your own, pretty much just bounces off a Tankasin, you end up doing no damage to your mirror match for the same reason why you're nearly unkillable.

 

Now a lot of people just take the easy way out and only mash weak targets but if that's what you want to do, you'd probably do better rolling a Marauder or a Rage Jugg. Assassins are far better at taking down hard targets (guarded healers, Marauders, themselves) than any other class but that means your performance is going to take a serious hit by the virtue you're fighting the hardest to kill guys. I don't know about others, but if I play the most powerful class in the game I think it's my duty to get rid of the other powerful classes on the enemy side, given there is clearly no shortage of Tankasins/Marauders out there. Also, a well played Tankasin should die a lot because the whole point is to use your superior survivality to make sure other people don't have to die. But, as hard as you're to kill, you'll still die eventually but because you're the hardest guy to kill, this means there's nobody you could offload your death to (they'd all be worse choices than you) so you should die a lot.

[Kalaesk]

The problem with Tankassins is that they dont give up anything for their survivability. My powertech can't really DPS as a Shieldtech especially after 1.2 will remove his ability to get railshot procs with the tank cell on. Meanwhile a Tankassin in full tank spec with DPS gear is just as hard to kill as me, healing himself constantly, and pumping out DPS.

[Xancath]

Take a look at the community's opinion about each class.

 

Take a look at the various class changes implemented and to come(1.2).

 

Conclusion? Bioware doesn't give a **** about the community's opinion of balance, and rightly so.

[jbuschell]

If they nerf darkness they need to buff deception and madness

[Technohic]

I haven't done any 50+ warzones; but I think that will be less relevant come 1.2 as it seems they are trying to close the gap between fresh 50s and full battle gear they have now but that being said...

 

I hit 50 this weekend on my assassin (31/0/10) and the last sub-50 warzone I did for my daily at level 49 I bet would make a lot of sub-50s yell nerf but the thing is, I had been stripping PvP sabers to get expertise as well. Still, when I finished with upper 30s in kills and 1 single death at the very end as I had drawn a lot of attention to myslef, I couldn't help but wonder.

 

But then I hit 50, and being the altoholic I am; and not to mention how much I like the game play of sniper (really switches things up from a tank assassin) I logged in my sniper at level 28 and did my daily warzones with him. Now, I am not charging in with that class like I would an assassin; and no, it doesn't quite have the utility my assassin does (although it does have a decent amount more than people give it credit) I had several matches where I had 30+ kills and 1 to 4 deaths. It just depended on my team and the other team TBH.

 

 

TL;DR story short: 50 or sub-50 warzones; anyone can look overpowered when playing bad players. Those numbers at the end, are all bull****.

[Dusksoverture]

May I introduce you to my friends the Vanguard and Powertech?

 

 

Ah, yes. The Powertech, the class that has less utility and less damage than an Assassin when in their tanking cylinder. Clearly, the perfect rebuttal.

 

>.>

[trakata]

Also, a well played Tankasin should die a lot because the whole point is to use your superior survivality to make sure other people don't have to die. But, as hard as you're to kill, you'll still die eventually but because you're the hardest guy to kill, this means there's nobody you could offload your death to (they'd all be worse choices than you) so you should die a lot.

 

True story. The point of a tank class is to absorb the damage that would otherwise squish your dps and healers. That's how I play, and I really don't care how many times I die. In Rated it's not your damage or protection that matters, it's your wins.

 

Ah, yes. The Powertech, the class that has less utility and less damage than an Assassin when in their tanking cylinder. Clearly, the perfect rebuttal.

 

>.>

 

Right, because having a speed-boost granting immobilizing charge, an immobilizing pull, a cap-stopping 30m ranged basic, a 30m ranged AOE, immobilizing stealth scans, and both single target and AOE stuns positively SCREAMS lack of utility. Lower damage? Sure.

[Truthizhere]

Ah, yes. The Powertech, the class that has less utility and less damage than an Assassin when in their tanking cylinder. Clearly, the perfect rebuttal.

 

>.>

 

Clearly you have never watched a team Full of Trooper-Vanguards completely dominate a VoidStar...and I'm not talking about the end match stats either.

[Dusksoverture]

 

Right, because having a speed-boost granting immobilizing charge,

 

The four-second speed boost is not important to group utility.

 

 

an immobilizing pull,

 

 

Force Pull.

 

 

a cap-stopping 30m ranged basic,

 

It's a CD, but Recklessness + Force Lightning can do the same thing.

 

a 30m ranged AOE,

 

Damage =\= Utility.

 

immobilizing stealth scans,

 

The utility here exists, but it's not that great.

 

and both single target and AOE stuns positively SCREAMS lack of utility.

 

Assassins also have a single target stun at 30 yards. Wither is more useful than Carbonize, due to the CD and Resolve.

 

 

Lower damage? Sure.

 

Well, at least you admit that. ST PT also has Oil Slick, but that's not terribly useful. PT gets Jet Charge while Sins get Overload, each are extremely useful in their own way, so those two offset imo. Grapple is analogous to Force Pull, being a little better with a 3-sec immobilize. But then you take into account Stealth, Mass Mind Control (30% AOE DR, although PT might also have this, don't remember), Mind Trap (10 sec. OOC CC), Whirlwind (8 sec CC), Force Slow (more dependable than the Ion slow, albeit cannot be spammed), Force Speed, Shock (stun), Spike (in-stealth 2-sec immobilize), and it becomes clear which AC has the best/more utility. Being more resilient through some decent self-heals is just gravy.

 

Clearly you have never watched a team Full of Trooper-Vanguards completely dominate a VoidStar...and I'm not talking about the end match stats either.

 

Those VG were not (if any) specced 31/0/10.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Dusksoverture

[Astarica]

I think PT have a targeted AE taunt (30m range) versus the pbae Assassins get. They are all useful in their own way (Assassin version doesn't require targeting which is surprisingly useful given this game really sucks at tab targetting).

 

Utility-wise, nothing in this game compares with Wither for defensive purposes. Assassins have more personal utility (Force Speed, Force Shroud) which is useful for Huttball, though Charge is the great equalizer in Huttball so it's about equal there.

 

It's not a stretch to say that a Tankasin is twice as hard to kill as most classes. That is, in a 3on3 it'd take about as long to kill the Tankasin than the other two guys put together. Therefore, if you died first, this is a good thing because there's no way your contribution can be greater than the other 2 assuming you're all equally geared/skilled. The class is strong not just beacuse it's arguably the strongest spec in the game, but that it gives the illusion of the class being as good as 2 people put together (which it certainly is not) so people actually attack you first over the squishies. From a pure math point of view, if you're twice as hard to kill as someone else, then you'd have to do twice the DPS for the enemy to worth risking the time killing you (otherwise they should kill the squishier class first). As powerful as we are, we certainly don't do twice the DPS as most DPS but we sure can be twice as hard to kill.

 

I actually really hate it when I see another Tankasin get away with 2 deaths when I died 7 times. I know we have the same gear and I saw that guy running away to leave our DPS to die. You're not supposed to try to lower other people's stats (by running away so they die) just to improve your stats. I fought some of the guys posting the crazy screenshots and what I do is just taunt them and kill all the squishies around them, so in the end it's like 2 Assassins versus 5 guys. It still took a long time to kill them but you sure aren't going to lose 5 on 2 no matter how powerful they are.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Astarica

[verfallen]

post

 

 

 

That comparison of PT and assassin utility breaking down each abilities is a load of bullcrap.

 

Especially the part about 30 meter range comparison between FL boosted with recklessness every 1:30 since sorry to say you are requiring use of a CD that is used to boost an energized shock and 3 HD stack and those are only going to be triggered in melee range. So you'll most likely WON'T have it off CD at the time you see someone at 30m, while the PT has its auto attack at 30 meter.

 

Jet charge is also much faster to prevent a cap at 30m.

 

The stealth scan is actually a stun when specced for PvP to foil Scoundrel and operative opening and avoids the biggest opening burst in the game.

 

Not denying Assassin's ammount of utility in Darkness, but trying to claim its SO superior to PT in that field is worse than shooting yourself in the foot, its ripping it off with a chainsaw.

 

Imo, part of the damage could be changed by slightly tweaking HD.

 

Either : each tack = 1% self heal per tick (for normal damage, but always self-heals) or removing the interrupt immunity (while leaving pushback one) and keeping damage as it is.

 

Lots of utility is part of being a tank, by definition a group leader and in charge of managing the mobs in PvE.

Edited April 9, 2012 by verfallen

[Truthizhere]

The four-second speed boost is not important to group utility.

 

 

 

Force Pull.

 

 

 

It's a CD, but Recklessness + Force Lightning can do the same thing.

 

 

 

Damage =\= Utility.

 

 

 

The utility here exists, but it's not that great.

 

 

 

Assassins also have a single target stun at 30 yards. Wither is more useful than Carbonize, due to the CD and Resolve.

 

 

 

 

Well, at least you admit that. ST PT also has Oil Slick, but that's not terribly useful. PT gets Jet Charge while Sins get Overload, each are extremely useful in their own way, so those two offset imo. Grapple is analogous to Force Pull, being a little better with a 3-sec immobilize. But then you take into account Stealth, Mass Mind Control (30% AOE DR, although PT might also have this, don't remember), Mind Trap (10 sec. OOC CC), Whirlwind (8 sec CC), Force Slow (more dependable than the Ion slow, albeit cannot be spammed), Force Speed, Shock (stun), Spike (in-stealth 2-sec immobilize), and it becomes clear which AC has the best/more utility. Being more resilient through some decent self-heals is just gravy.

 

 

 

Those VG were not (if any) specced 31/0/10.

 

I won't even respond to most of this because your idea of utility is opinion based at this point. However, there are two reasons why I know for sure you haven't played much assassin.

 

1) Whirlwind? A two second cast time for a stun that can be broken with damage? A Sorcerer with instant cast whirlwind. Yes. An assassin with instant cast whirlwind is dipping pretty deep into the madness tree which kinda mitigates your darkness argument.

 

2) Mind trap? A CC that can only be used in stealth IF AND ONLY IF the target is not in combat. Tell me how that is viable in the middle a hutball scrum. Not to mention the 50% resolve bar it fills.

 

Assassin CC abilities minus the one stun (shock) and interrupt (spike) is laughable and one of the weaknesses in the class. Don't bring those up to prove your point.

[trakata]

Post

 

Yeah, I don't think you've played too much of Assassins or Powertechs. I would've refuted what you said, but several people beat me to it.

 

No one is saying that Powertechs are horribly OP; the point is that Tankasins, quite frankly, aren't. They could probably take a slight damage debuff though (easiest quick fix IMO would be to make the 5% melee damage debuff a straight 5% damage debuff--which would affect all attacks). Also, in rateds tankasins will not be the best choice. An 8 person premade will probably benefit more from a Powertech and Jugg pair of tanks. Tankasins are generalists; they put up good stats, but bring less to a coordinated team.

[Astarica]

You guys have some seriously weird conception of how rated is going to work. Nobody's goign to attack a person that doesn't do significant DPS without a good reason. So you want a Jugg as the ball carrier in Huttball (which isn't even related to their survivality but rather they have 2 leaps). The current strategy of leaving Tankasins to last would work even better against the other two tank classes because they have fewer ways to peel DPS off, and the DPS is never threatened by the tank's DPS if they're not a Tankasin. Guard is not enough to stop a determined attacker. A guarded healer, if there's no Tankasin involved, should be attacked by 3 people because you'd need a tank/dps/healer for this combo to make sense, since non-Tankasin tank + healer pretty much can't kill anybody.

[exphryl]

 

Jet charge is also much faster to prevent a cap at 30m.

 

The stealth scan is actually a stun when specced for PvP to foil Scoundrel and operative opening and avoids the biggest opening burst in the game.

 

Not denying Assassin's ammount of utility in Darkness, but trying to claim its SO superior to PT in that field is worse than shooting yourself in the foot, its ripping it off with a chainsaw.

 

Stealth Scan is a root, not a stun when spec'd in to it.

 

I'm all for comparisons, but at least get the talents correct =/