Feedback request from James Ohlen - "Your Star Wars fantasy"

[LizardSF]

ROFL. I'm sorry Bioware, but did you REALLY need a poll for this? Seriously, this is just another one of your PR stunts to try to get people to continue subscribing for months in the hope of seeing something worthwhile.

 

Except, since anyone can unsub and then resub at any time, there's no need to maintain a subscription while waiting for content... and I'm pretty sure the folks at Bioware know how their payment system works.

 

This leads me to three possible conclusions:

a)You believe the people at Bioware are morons who don't know that their customers can unsubscribe, follow the progress of the game on a zillion web sites, and then resubscribe if, and only if, there's enough positive buzz from active customers to convince them to do so.

 

b)You believe the players themselves don't realize they can do this, and this are tricked by Bioware, because they don't know they can cancel their subscriptions if they aren't currently having fun in the game and then rejoin if they wish to, later on. (You, of course, are a super-genius who has deduced this flaw in Bioware's evil plan, and you're a generous soul to share it with all of us. Bless you, sir.)

 

c)You are shocked, shocked, at the thought of a company which relies on ongoing subscriptions to make money would be involved in the tricky and underhanded scheme of continually producing new content that people will want to experience and thus maintain their subscriptions. Those cunning fiends, you say, constantly trying to give people value for their money! What evil plot will they hatch next?

 

Which is it?

[Tarka]

Except, since anyone can unsub and then resub at any time, there's no need to maintain a subscription while waiting for content... and I'm pretty sure the folks at Bioware know how their payment system works.

 

This leads me to three possible conclusions:

a)You believe the people at Bioware are morons who don't know that their customers can unsubscribe, follow the progress of the game on a zillion web sites, and then resubscribe if, and only if, there's enough positive buzz from active customers to convince them to do so.

 

b)You believe the players themselves don't realize they can do this, and this are tricked by Bioware, because they don't know they can cancel their subscriptions if they aren't currently having fun in the game and then rejoin if they wish to, later on. (You, of course, are a super-genius who has deduced this flaw in Bioware's evil plan, and you're a generous soul to share it with all of us. Bless you, sir.)

 

c)You are shocked, shocked, at the thought of a company which relies on ongoing subscriptions to make money would be involved in the tricky and underhanded scheme of continually producing new content that people will want to experience and thus maintain their subscriptions. Those cunning fiends, you say, constantly trying to give people value for their money! What evil plot will they hatch next?

 

Which is it?

 

d) None of the above.

 

Check the response from the poster above my post which you are responding to. You will note that because of the possibility of a certain type of content, that poster is fully willing to consider subscribing for longer. Regardless of the fact that, in all probability, said content won't be ready for launch for some time yet. Such a reaction is nothing new. I doubt said poster won't be the only one willing to continuing to subscribe for that reason.

 

Which goes to prove just how incomprehensive that little "conclusions" list of yours actually is.

 

I'll give you 5/10 for trying to justify a PR stunt that in actual fact is superfluous, just because I'm in a good mood. Nice try at the passive aggressive thing though.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Tarka

[Stellin]

For the love of god leave PVP out of the space game or you will just destroy it completely. you do not understand pvp

 

Last time I checked, some of the people who made DAOC are working on SWTOR.

DAOC = Best PvP EVER!!!!!!

Just put them in charge....ignore the forums, and make something truly awesome using the artistic, and creative talents of the people who actually work for the company, not the fans/customers who will just "qq" it to death anyway.

[LizardSF]

d) None of the above. Check the response from the poster above my post which you are responding to. You will note that because of the possibility of a certain type of content, that poster is fully willing to continue subscribing.

 

Nice try at the passive aggressive thing though. I'll give you 5/10 for effort

 

 

Looking as the post above yours that you reference, I think your sarcasm detector is broken. The person you're referring to is parodying the same attitude you ascribe to the customers, that they're basically drooling morons who don't understand they aren't being "forced" to pay for anything (and/or that this is what Bioware thinks of its customers), and that promising some nebulous future feature without any specific implementation details or a ghost of a release date is enough to get them to keep paying for a game they (presumably) are not currently playing and enjoying. (The poll hardly promises "3D space combat" as a guaranteed thing, and there's absolutely no reason to imagine that BioWare's implementation will mirror that of SWG in any way other than "ships in space", so no one could *actually* be that excited over it. Thus, he is acting out the part of the morons who would be so excited... but said morons do not actually exist, except in the imaginations of people who like to congratulate themselves on being far too clever to be taken in by something that was never intended to take anyone in -- and hasn't. It's a wonderfully circular form of self-referential fantasy. In short, the poster you refer to -- and yourself -- are smugly congratulating yourselves on realizing that Marvelo The Magnificent didn't REALLY saw a lady in half, that it's all a trick... ignoring that Marvelo isn't actually trying to convince anyone he's performing real magic, and that every other person in the audience is as aware as you are that it's not real. )

 

While, in any sufficiently large population, some morons do exist, they're not numerous enough to base a business plan on. Very, very, very, few people will keep paying for a game they do not *currently* enjoy because someone vaguely promised that there might, in the future, be something or other which they *might* enjoy, when there is no cost to quitting (You don't lose your character, your possessions, etc... unlike, say, SWG, where you could lose your houses and harvesters if you didn't log in every few days to pay rent. Ditto Ultima Online. At least back when I played them, they may have changed since then.)

 

TL;DR: The player base isn't as stupid as you'd like to think they are, and BioWare knows it.

 

PS: To quote one of my favorite TV shows, "There is nothing passive about my aggressive."

 

PPS: For example, I've quit and rejoined COH/V more times than I can recall... it holds my interest for a week or two, then i get tired of the same instances, then I go back when I forget how bored I was, lather, rinse, repeat.

[Tarka]

Looking as the post above yours that you reference, I think your sarcasm detector is broken. The person you're referring to is parodying the same attitude you ascribe to the customers, that they're basically drooling morons who don't understand they aren't being "forced" to pay for anything (and/or that this is what Bioware thinks of its customers), and that promising some nebulous future feature without any specific implementation details or a ghost of a release date is enough to get them to keep paying for a game they (presumably) are not currently playing and enjoying. (The poll hardly promises "3D space combat" as a guaranteed thing, and there's absolutely no reason to imagine that BioWare's implementation will mirror that of SWG in any way other than "ships in space", so no one could *actually* be that excited over it. Thus, he is acting out the part of the morons who would be so excited... but said morons do not actually exist, except in the imaginations of people who like to congratulate themselves on being far too clever to be taken in by something that was never intended to take anyone in -- and hasn't. It's a wonderfully circular form of self-referential fantasy. In short, the poster you refer to -- and yourself -- are smugly congratulating yourselves on realizing that Marvelo The Magnificent didn't REALLY saw a lady in half, that it's all a trick... ignoring that Marvelo isn't actually trying to convince anyone he's performing real magic, and that every other person in the audience is as aware as you are that it's not real. )

 

While, in any sufficiently large population, some morons do exist, they're not numerous enough to base a business plan on. Very, very, very, few people will keep paying for a game they do not *currently* enjoy because someone vaguely promised that there might, in the future, be something or other which they *might* enjoy, when there is no cost to quitting (You don't lose your character, your possessions, etc... unlike, say, SWG, where you could lose your houses and harvesters if you didn't log in every few days to pay rent. Ditto Ultima Online. At least back when I played them, they may have changed since then.)

 

TL;DR: The player base isn't as stupid as you'd like to think they are, and BioWare knows it.

 

PS: To quote one of my favorite TV shows, "There is nothing passive about my aggressive."

 

PPS: For example, I've quit and rejoined COH/V more times than I can recall... it holds my interest for a week or two, then i get tired of the same instances, then I go back when I forget how bored I was, lather, rinse, repeat.

 

ROFL. Please do continue to make gross assumptions about people you don't actually know. After all, if you think they are making grossly inaccurate assumptions about the company or other players, or perhaps being sarcastic, then they MUST be doing so, right? And please, do continue to state facts that are obvious. Because how else would people know?

 

After all, this product and how the company conducts itself is a shining example of how an MMO development company should conduct itself, isn't it?

 

P.S. Just so you don't make the same mistake twice and jump to wild conclusions AGAIN: I'm being sarcastic.

 

TLDR: You know what they say about assumptions don't you?

Edited April 26, 2012 by Tarka

[Pathlight-]

All of the above but if I had to choose one I'd take full 3d pvp space battles.

[LizardSF]

Heh. Between when I hit "quote" and when it came up, you edited your post. Amusing.

 

ROFL. Please do continue to make gross assumptions about people you don't actually know. After all, if you think they are making grossly inaccurate assumptions about the company or other players, then they MUST be doing so, right? And please, do continue to state facts that are obvious. Because how else would people know?

 

Well, you seem to think it's inobvious that promising features not yet designed or released is an attempt to keep people paying attention to the product's development and felt obliged to tell us this...

 

I mean, this product and how the company conducts itself is a shining example of how an MMO development company should conduct itself, isn't it?

 

Seems like it to me. It shipped with the same amount of bugs, missing features, and broken designs that most equivalent titles shipped with; it had the same rush of customers in the first week followed by the usual stupid response of opening too many servers and spreading the population to thin; it's had the usual series of emergency patches, bug fixes, and broken patches which cause uproars for the four hours they exist before they're patched again and then forgotten forever; at the 4-5 month mark, they've fixed many issues, produced new content, given us a good sense of their vision for the game (sufficient for anyone to decide if that vision matches their own desires and to quit now if it doesn't).

 

Having been playing MMOs since, depending on how you count them, either UO in 1997, Neverwinter Nights in 1991, or Isle of Kesmai in 1989, I think I've got enough experience to judge, and I see nothing spectacularly wrong with either the game or the release and development process, as compared to actual games that exist and how they've been released and developed, not some platonic ideal of perfection.

 

If you don't think the game is fun as-is... well, then you're not having fun. So be it. I can't tell you what you should think is fun. That's too personal. If you're not having fun, quit. Rejoin later if you think the game might have changed for the better. You're allowed to do that.

 

If you think the game fails to meet the expected standards for a title of its budget and corporate backing, relative to its release date and development status.... then, frankly, your standards are unrealistically high, and you will spend your life being bitter and disappointed, because it's not going to get dramatically better than this with any similar game in near future, and it will likely be worse ofr most of them. There are economic and technological factors that mean that bugs, missing features, and bad design choices will be part and parcel of this genre for many years to come, and if you simply *have* to play a game at release, you'd better learn to deal with it. Or, you could just wait a year or two for the hype to die down (and the first wave of patches to go in), and play it then.

[Tarka]

.....snip.....

 

Firstly, I would like to apologise for not quoting parts of your post that weren't relevant to my post that you originally responded to. It was done for clarity.

 

Secondly, I did wonder when the obligatory shift in discussion would occur, that is often seen on these forums. By this I am obviously referring to going from discussing the ACTUAL details of a post, to clinging to inaccurate assumptions, going off on wild tangents, passing judgement on whether someones expectations are realistic to ultimately inferring that perhaps a person shouldn't subscribe purely because you disagree with them.

 

But, thank you for your post. After all, no one else has been playing MMO's for nearly as long as you have. And therefore, we have all benefited from such a unique insight.

 

TLDR: If you don't agree with a persons assessment of a situation, just say so and move on. Giving them your life story doesn't make your opinion any more valid than anyone else's.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Tarka

[Darth_Acherus]

Space battles and capital ship battles!

[LizardSF]

Firstly, I would like to apologise for not quoting parts of your post that weren't relevant to my post that you originally responded to. It was done for clarity.

 

Secondly, I did wonder when the obligatory shift in discussion would occur, that is often seen on these forums. By this I am obviously referring to going from discussing the ACTUAL details of a post, to clinging to inaccurate assumptions and passing judgement on whether someones expectations are realistic and inferring that perhaps they shouldn't subscribe.

 

Well, let's try to summarize the flow, shall we?

 

You: Bioware is fiendishly plotting to TRICK people into subscribing by promising nebulous nothing!

 

Me: It's a pretty stupid evil scheme, since no one needs to keep subscribing, and can stop paying until/unless the features are actually implemented. How stupid do you think the customers are, or how stupid do you think Bioware thinks the customers are?

 

You: They ARE that stupid! Look at the post above mine!

 

Me: Yeah, that post was what we like to call "sarcasm". It's rare on the Internet, but it does occur.

 

You: You're just a fanboy who thinks the game is perfect!

 

Me: No, I think it's no worse than every equivalent game. I fully acknowledge the existing bugs, launch issues, and ongoing design flaws. They're within my expected bounds.

 

You: Stop changing the subject! Bioware is evilly trying to trick us with their evil trickery!

 

Do I have that right?

 

I mean, what part of your posts haven't I responded to? You popped in to warn us all of that Bioware was trying to trick us into subscribing by the cunning plan of not actually promising anything or providing a release date; I pointed out this actually provides no reason to keep subscribing (as compared to, say, a fully-developed feature list and a reasonably firm patch date, which would keep people paying if it was in the near future), and Bioware knows it. All proceeded from there.

 

Well, thank you for your post. After all, no one else has been playing MMO's for nearly as long as you have.

 

I have to conclude that you, at least, haven't, because, if you had been, you'd know better than to expect much more than you got from this game. The alternative -- that you have been playing as long as I have but still don't know better -- would be needlessly insulting. I give you more credit than that.

 

And therefore, we have all benefited from such a unique insight.

 

I am infinitely glad to be of such service. Sadly, my code is done running and now I have to look at the results, so I'll be less prompt about replying.

[Tarka]

Well, let's try to summarize the flow, shall we?

 

You: Bioware is fiendishly plotting to TRICK people into subscribing by promising nebulous nothing!

 

...which is the first of many incorrect assumptions you made.

 

Me: It's a pretty stupid evil scheme, since no one needs to keep subscribing, and can stop paying until/unless the features are actually implemented. How stupid do you think the customers are, or how stupid do you think Bioware thinks the customers are?

 

You: They ARE that stupid! Look at the post above mine!

 

I do believe that I never stated such a thing. In actual fact, I was showing how PR can affect a persons decision as to whether or not they continue to subscribe. I make no assumption about that persons level of intelligence.

 

Proving that here, yet again, you are jumping to wild conclusions and putting words in other people's mouths.

 

Me: Yeah, that post was what we like to call "sarcasm". It's rare on the Internet, but it does occur.

 

You: You're just a fanboy who thinks the game is perfect!

 

Interesting considering said poster never actually made any indication of being sarcastic. You only assume he was. But of course, that didn't stop you from continuing to jump to conclusions about my posts....

 

Me: No, I think it's no worse than every equivalent game. I fully acknowledge the existing bugs, launch issues, and ongoing design flaws. They're within my expected bounds.

 

You: Stop changing the subject! Bioware is evilly trying to trick us with their evil trickery!

 

Do I have that right?

 

ROFL. See above. You are using a typical combination of "strawman" arguments and leading the discussion off on tangents, resulting in reaching some wild conclusions in order to chastise someone.

 

I really think you need to read the original post you responded to again.

 

I mean, what part of your posts haven't I responded to? You popped in to warn us all of that Bioware was trying to trick us into subscribing by the cunning plan of not actually promising anything or providing a release date; I pointed out this actually provides no reason to keep subscribing (as compared to, say, a fully-developed feature list and a reasonably firm patch date, which would keep people paying if it was in the near future), and Bioware knows it. All proceeded from there.

 

I have to conclude that you, at least, haven't, because, if you had been, you'd know better than to expect much more than you got from this game. The alternative -- that you have been playing as long as I have but still don't know better -- would be needlessly insulting. I give you more credit than that.

 

I am infinitely glad to be of such service. Sadly, my code is done running and now I have to look at the results, so I'll be less prompt about replying.

 

Oh, does that mean we won't be illuminated with such inspirational words of wisdom from someone who infers that he messes with coding a bit? Oh, how ever will we mere mortals cope? Bloggers.....Full of their self inflated and exaggerated sense of importance since the late 90's.

 

 

TLDR: I'd suggest you focus more on messing with your keyboard macros, and less on attacking people you don't know with wildly inaccurate assumptions. And perhaps in doing so, this thread can get BACK onto the actual subject for discussion (i.e. James Ohlen's request), and not have it derailed by people who just want to argue for the sake of it.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Tarka

[JarvisW]

Its probably been said already, but I say you guys figure out how to buy JTL from Sony and put it in here!!

If you do that, I'd play that even if I had 5 servers full of 50s!!

PLEASE!!

[Ayla-Sacura]

So when do we get full 3d space combat? Mr. James your post is from 2012 aka last year, some kind of update would be nice. The poll said 3d space combat won so i would like to know where is new space combat because i see same old boring roller-coaster or however you spell it.

[ELRunninW]

ZOOOMBIEEEEEEEE RUUUN!!!

 

 

You must have missed the post that made it clear that opinion polls should not be taken seriously. It was only to gather an opinion not to give you any insight into future development.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ELRunninW

[Ayla-Sacura]

ZOOOMBIEEEEEEEE RUUUN!!!

 

 

You must have missed the post that made it clear that opinion polls should not be taken seriously. It was only to gather an opinion not to give you any insight into future development.

 

Yeah i did, i am kinda tired. Anyway they mentioned SSSP so i presume that is it (3D space combat?)........

[chuixupu]

I think it's not too crazy an assumption to think that the results of this poll led to the creation of the SSSP. They did say that they started working on it directly due to player request/feedback.