Luke Skywalker vs Superman. Who wins?

[ReiKai]

The "most powerful Jedi ever" still doesn't mean anything to an alien who can move hundreds of times faster than light and reduce a planet to a charred husk with heat vision. Luke dies the instant the fight starts.

[ZahirS]

If we admit that the Force is in fact a form of Magic, that opens multiple angles of attack that Luke Skywalker, the other New Order Jedi, and any remaining Sith that cared to join the fight, could use against Superman, and have be effective. For example, Force Drain would be the most obvious route to success (though in the case of End Game Superman, that might take quite a while, even with the entire New Jedi Order using it). And don't go arguing that Force Drain is a dark side ability. The abilities of the Force are neither light or dark side, it is rather a matter of one's own motivation for using these abilities that determines the nature of the ability. The Force in and of itself is neither light nor dark, it is just an energy field. It's just that certain emotions have a negative effect on the user when coupled with the Force. Notice that Palpatine didn't age artificially until after he used Force Lightning, and probably Force Drain simultaneously in anger at Mace Windu (it was likely the rebound of Force Drain that actually aged him, not the Force Lightning).

 

You are wrong, because your concept of the force is wrong, its not magic as you quote "Its an energy field the binds the galaxy together" but also it has a will (will of the force) which automatically makes it a cult (Lightside/darkside), that been said is more akin to God in Star Wars.

 

Source:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force

 

Second, Force Drain won't work on Superman as it has been tried before:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngev0vzxdF8

 

Basically, no mortal man can acquire superman energy/vital energy as superman is kriptonian and his body is the only body that can sustain that amount of energy and besides Luke wouldn't use force drain as it is a darkside ability.

[ReiKai]

The Force itself is not magic, but has been used as a source of power for magic like Sith Sorcery and the powers used by the Nightsisters in the TCW series.

[XantosCledwin]

Superman. If it came down to it no holding back....Superman would decimate Luke Skywalker. When most people see Superman he's holding back because he doesn't want to really cause collateral damage or murder anyone. It's only when he's fighting people like Darkseid, when he knows the person can take the hits and he REALLY doesn't like them is when he lets loose. Luke would be red paste in less than a few minutes. Don't get me wrong, Luke is a Bad MOFO, but Superman would destroy Luke.

 

Plus I asume in this hypothetical fight Supes isn't holding back and is not up for discussion because I'm sure if the two ever met a fight wouldn't have broken out.

 

Okay, if we are going to get technical, the fight between Superman and Luke would be decided in space not on a planet. In space superman wins, because all he has to do is heat vision Luke's cockpit canopy off.

 

If we are going to argue that the fight takes place inside of an atmosphere on a planet, then Luke automatically has the advantage due to the Doctor Fate clause in Superman's powers (superman is not immune to Magic unlike many other things). Further is the fact that Superman is not immune to a variety of Alien Technology, so he could take damage from a Lightsaber.

 

The "most powerful Jedi ever" still doesn't mean anything to an alien who can move hundreds of times faster than light and reduce a planet to a charred husk with heat vision. Luke dies the instant the fight starts.

 

Except Superman can't move that fast. The fact that the Comics portray him moving that fast defies the laws of relativity as we know them. So either he is defying relativistic law just by his very existence, or he is somehow able to generate enough power within his body to accelerate to the speed of light (the amount of power necessary to move a man sized object with the same mass as a man to that speed is bordering on more energy than is generated by the sun on a daily basis). So basically Superman would require more energy than he absorbs from a Yellow Sun to move that fast. And let's not even bring the Flash into this, because moving at the speed of light on a planets surface or in it's atmosphere is a surefire way to destroy said planet due to a sonic disruption so powerful as to shatter the earth's crust.

 

You are wrong, because your concept of the force is wrong, its not magic as you quote "Its an energy field the binds the galaxy together" but also it has a will (will of the force) which automatically makes it a cult (Lightside/darkside), that been said is more akin to God in Star Wars.

 

Source:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force

 

Second, Force Drain won't work on Superman as it has been tried before:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngev0vzxdF8

 

Basically, no mortal man can acquire superman energy/vital energy as superman is kriptonian and his body is the only body that can sustain that amount of energy and besides Luke wouldn't use force drain as it is a darkside ability.

 

Um.... dude when they say "Will of the Force" or "Will of the Light/dark side of the Force." They are specifically referring to the Energy Field, not to the followers of either the Jedi or the Sith. The fact that the Force is magic is made even more poignant by the very fact that it has incarnated itself (i.e. done the Jesus) in the form of "Father, Daughter, and Son" who are beings created by the coalesced essence of the Celestials (i.e. they're essentially 3 Force Ghosts created out of millions of individual beings). The very existence of Force Ghosts in the first place is proof that the Force is magic in fact.

 

If the Force Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi or Yoda took on Superman, he would die in matter of minutes, because of the fact that he couldn't land a single punch, and both of those individuals could still use Force Powers on him. Same goes for if the Daughter, Son, or Father attempted to take on Superman (they have no fixed Corporeal form or in laymens terms, they don't have a fixed physical body). So claiming that the Force isn't magical is stupid beyond all reason. How else would you describe the Force if not magic?

 

Also, the definition of the word "Cult" is simply "Mystery" or "Secret" it has nothing to do with some cosmic will that dictates life. Additionally the word "Cult" is usually applied to an organization, not to a supernatural force.

 

Also, put a Kryptonian under a red sun (like their race was on Krypton itself) and they are as mortal as the next person. It is only under a yellow sun that they become immortal.

Edited April 16, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[ReiKai]

Except Superman can't move that fast. The fact that the Comics portray him moving that fast defies the laws of relativity as we know them. So either he is defying relativistic law just by his very existence, or he is somehow able to generate enough power within his body to accelerate to the speed of light (the amount of power necessary to move a man sized object with the same mass as a man to that speed is bordering on more energy than is generated by the sun on a daily basis). So basically Superman would require more energy than he absorbs from a Yellow Sun to move that fast. And let's not even bring the Flash into this, because moving at the speed of light on a planets surface or in it's atmosphere is a surefire way to destroy said planet due to a sonic disruption so powerful as to shatter the earth's crust.

 

Physics are all but meaningless in fiction. Arguing law of relativity is pointless. The fact he can do this proves you wrong. And since the whole point here is beating Luke, I don't see what any of that has to do with anything. Luke does not possess super-luminal speed nor class 100+ strength nor durability to allow him to survive such a blow. Superman uses more energy in his Heat Vision than he does flying or using any of his other abilities. And that's if he uses it excessively.

 

Fact remains, Superman can move at such velocities, and a single touch will kill Luke. There isn't any reason for this to have been done in the first place.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Can we just end this already? This was a dumb thread to begin with. Don't know why it was brought up again. Edited April 16, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[XantosCledwin]

Physics are all but meaningless in fiction. Arguing law of relativity is pointless. The fact he can do this proves you wrong. And since the whole point here is beating Luke, I don't see what any of that has to do with anything. Luke does not possess super-luminal speed nor class 100+ strength nor durability to allow him to survive such a blow. Superman uses more energy in his Heat Vision than he does flying or using any of his other abilities. And that's if he uses it excessively.

 

Fact remains, Superman can move at such velocities, and a single touch will kill Luke. There isn't any reason for this to have been done in the first place.

 

What Luke can do is the following:

 

A.) Assuming he brought even just one other Jedi with him into this battle he can use that Jedi and a Force Power that enables them to link their minds and force powers so that they can both see out of each others eyes and predict things based on each others precognitive senses. This would allow him to predict when and where Supes was going to attack from. So assuming that Orbit was out of bounds for this fight (and even if it wasn't all they would need is a third Jedi sitting in Orbit with an X-Wing keeping them in the loop for that part of the fight) they would be able to see Superman and react to him before he does anything. Superman can't beat you if you can predict his attacks. And since the Jedi aren't metahumans (Smallville) Superman isn't immune to their precognition.

 

B.) They can enter into a Battletrance using the Force which would increase their Reaction time to levels that are very close to Supermans. Since they are in fact human, and since Superman has a strict policy of not killing humans, he would hold back just enough to prevent them from dying. So their advanced capabilities would be able to keep up with him. So arguing that he would land a punch that would 1 hit kill them, is pointless because such a blow is against Supermans very moral code and there is one thing we can be sure of, the only way to get Superman to violate his moral code is if he is in contact with Red Kryptonite. So unless we are making Red Kryptonite a mandatory component of this fight, killing the Jedi is automatically out of the question for Superman.

 

C.) The Laws of physics do still apply in most fictional settings. The fact of the matter is that Superman is a character from a Comic written in 1938. The Laws of Relativity as we understand them, were still in their very early infancy back then (Einstein had only proposed the Theory of Relativity 33 years earlier), and I have to wonder if the authors of Superman were even studying physics at the time to begin with.

 

Even if they did study physics, and even if Superman as an adult could travel faster than the speed of light under a yellow sun, that still doesn't excuse the fact that his spaceship traveled from Krypton to earth at significantly faster than light speeds. Because it managed to travel to earth in what seems to have been the time it takes for Clark to reach 5 or so years old (he was an infant on Krypton). Even at exactly the speed of light it would have taken centuries for a ship to arrive at earth from a star even as close to us as half-way across the galaxy. Add into the fact that you have meteor rocks traveling with him over that distance. Sorry to say it but there is friction in space. Objects do slow down over vast distances if they don't have the pull of gravity acting on them (the way Comets and Planets do) or they don't have propulsion on them. So the very idea of meteors traveling across interstellar distances is absurd... the explosion of Krypton would have had to have Galaxy destroying capabilities for it to send rocks that far.

 

Point is, the Rocks sent to Earth from Krypton along with Clark, were either an engineered part of his delivery to earth (as Smallville seems to be proposing), or the writers of Superman just didn't do a very good job.

 

Star Wars on the other hand does use a great deal of the laws of physics. Or at least it attempts to. Heck, Star Trek has had stuff in Physics named after things in that series.

 

That said, there are Fantasy series featuring magic where the magic itself is a stand in for physics. Meaning that the magic is ordered and structured and explains reality in that fantasy setting in the same way that physics in our reality explains our reality... take Full Metal Alchemist as a prime example, that show goes so far as to call it's form of Magic, Science.

Edited April 16, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[ReiKai]

Superman has flown across galaxies in minutes, bake a planet with heat vision, split a moon in half from flying through it, moved the moon, tanked planet-level and super-nova level explosions, resisted and withstood numerous forms of energy weapons, missiles and Power Ring Constructs. He can resist mental abilities with Kryptonian Mental Disciplines, among various other things.

 

Superman can lobotomize Luke in an instant if he's feeling generous. There is honestly nothing Luke can do.

[XantosCledwin]

Superman has flown across galaxies in minutes, bake a planet with heat vision, split a moon in half from flying through it, moved the moon, tanked planet-level and super-nova level explosions, resisted and withstood numerous forms of energy weapons, missiles and Power Ring Constructs. He can resist mental abilities with Kryptonian Mental Disciplines, among various other things.

 

Superman can lobotomize Luke in an instant if he's feeling generous. There is honestly nothing Luke can do.

 

Which version of Superman flew across Galaxies in minutes? Because I have seen versions of him that can't breathe in outer space without a breathing mask. I have seen versions of him that require spaceships to travel across interstellar distances. Heck he was delivered to earth in a life pod. Clearly not all versions of Superman are equal when it comes to the ability to travel interstellar distances.

 

Taking the full brunt of a Supernova is one thing (that is Solar Radiation, which is where he gets his power to begin with). Taking a blow from a Lightsaber Blade which is a form of Plasma generated by a combination of things not the least of which is what I assume is an Ion-Power Pack, as well as the Force infused focusing Crystal... I doubt Superman would be as capable of shrugging that off.

 

Worst case Scenario, Luke could just study a Rakata Holocron and learn how to generate a Force-Saber (i.e. a Blade created from coalesced Force instead of plasma). I imagine being hit by solidified Life Energy would hurt a bit more than Plasma any day of the week.

 

The only version of Superman I know of that lobotomizes people with his heat vision is the version from the Justice Lord's universe (Though I may have missed a couple) and that version was one that took the meaning of "Knight in Shining Armor" and perverted it into "Knight of the Holy Roman Church's Inquisitorial Squad" which is to say he was more than a little overzealous about the whole justice thing.

 

And all of that said, Superman still gets his *** whopped any day of the week by Doctor Fate.

[ReiKai]

Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis, All-Star, Prime, 1million and such can all do it. The "versions" you refer to are from the Animated series. We only go by Main Canon unless otherwise specified. Even New 52 Superman can benchpress the Earth for three days straight and not strain himself.

[JouerTue]

i'd bet luke

[XantosCledwin]

Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis, All-Star, Prime, 1million and such can all do it. The "versions" you refer to are from the Animated series. We only go by Main Canon unless otherwise specified. Even New 52 Superman can benchpress the Earth for three days straight and not strain himself.

 

The question isn't so much "Can Superman Lobotomize Luke Skywalker?" Cause the answer is always going to be a yes. The question is "Would he lobotomize Luke Skywalker?" because unless I missed some massive character developments in all of the versions you listed, Superman automatically defaulting to "Lobotomize" on any of his would be enemies would be so out of character for him, it would be like saying the following about Captain Kirk and the Doctor:

 

Doctor Who would automatically default to sealing anyone who crosses him in a temporally locked sub dimension (i.e. what he did to Gallifrey and the Daleks at the end of the Time War).

 

Kirk would have the Genesis Torpedo mass produced and use it on the home planets of any enemy who dares to cross the Federation.

 

Basically you are suggesting that Superman, the man known for saving people's lives and being so stubborn as to save the lives of even his worst enemies, would automatically default to using his most powerful offensive weapon (Lobotomy Heat Vision) on someone who is not even evil incarnate (Darkseid).

[ZahirS]

Im with Reikai on this, Superman in the comics is what we are talking about and also Luke from the EU both at their peak.

 

Superman can and will shrug off a lightsaber attack mainly because his physical body can take it, he has taken nuclear blasts and Solar radiation inside a sun.

 

The Force precog is pointless against someone than can warp to speedes beyong the speed of light or even speed of thought.

 

Superman has also Macro and Microscopic vision he can disable any threats to him from distance and do attacks like pressure points on Luke rendering him in coma (without killing him) or any jedi along with him.

 

Like Reikai said he can lobotomize him aswell.

Edited April 16, 2013 by ZahirS

[ReiKai]

Let me put it this way. If Luke and Supes actually met, they wouldn't even fight. At all. They'd be friends. But this isn't that. They are fighting. They're not in character and I see zero reason why Superman wouldn't kill Luke immediately in a fight where one is trying to win nor any reason he would even allow Luke any time at all to use his Force abilities. Trying to say "he wouldn't do it normally" is utterly meaningless when the purpose of a Vs match is to determine who would defeat the other. And the fact remains Superman could very, very easily destroy Luke in a battle.

[JouerTue]

but after a short thinking i guess they wouldn't fight at all...

[XantosCledwin]

Im with Reikai on this, Superman in the comics is what we are talking about and also Luke from the EU both at their peak.

 

Superman can and will shrug off a lightsaber attack mainly because his physical body can take it, he has taken nuclear blasts and Solar radiation inside a sun.

 

We actually don't know whether Superman would shrug a lightsaber attack off or not. Also there have been so many comics of Superman with varying different scales of power attributed to him, you kind of need to pick one for any given comparison of his powers with Luke Skywalker.

 

The Force precog is pointless against someone than can warp to speedes beyong the speed of light or even speed of thought.

 

Again, unless they are fighting on a planet whose surface is made entirely of a substance that is more solid than Titanium, Superman accelerating to the speed of light on a planets surface will cause thousand upon thousands of sonic booms. Each successive sonic boom he makes will get more powerful the closer he gets to the speed of light. As soon as he breaks the light barrier he will shatter the planets surface in a devastating explosion.

 

Superman has also Macro and Microscopic vision he can disable any threats to him from distance and do attacks like pressure points on Luke rendering him in coma (without killing him) or any jedi along with him.

 

Like Reikai said he can lobotomize him aswell.

 

That is all well and good, but this assumes Luke can't sense his attacks coming a mile away and react to them with the blinding speed and accuracy of a Jedi. Which he can.

 

Again we need to pick a version of Superman. If we are comparing the standard everyday version of Superman that most people are acquainted with, then Luke Skywalker in his prime at the peak of the post-movies EU would stand on even footing with that Superman at worst.

 

If however we are talking about the end game Superman that spent a thousand or so years inside the center of the Yellow Sun... then of course he is going to win. He's made himself into a living God. I doubt even Daughter and Son (actual Force Gods) could do much to harm End Game Superman, though they could theoretically outlast him (having lived for 1,000,000 years each), and / or alternatively turn the sun red using their immense affinity to the force. But other than that I doubt they would have much effect on him.

 

Let me put it this way. If Luke and Supes actually met, they wouldn't even fight. At all. They'd be friends. But this isn't that. They are fighting. They're not in character and I see zero reason why Superman wouldn't kill Luke immediately in a fight where one is trying to win nor any reason he would even allow Luke any time at all to use his Force abilities. Trying to say "he wouldn't do it normally" is utterly meaningless when the purpose of a Vs match is to determine who would defeat the other. And the fact remains Superman could very, very easily destroy Luke in a battle.

 

Okay, if we are going to go with the argument that "One Must Win at all costs, no matter what." Then Luke wins this hands down. Because, Luke would get emotional. Luke would surrender himself to the Dark Side of the Force. Additionally Luke would pull some dues ex machina that ensured that he somehow had a weapon of mass destruction capable of destroying the entire solar system at his disposal.

 

Additionally, pulling the lobotomy card on a Jedi or a Sith is a futile effort. As I mentioned before, they can enter a battle trance. In said state it has been proven that a Jedi or a Sith can operate in battle for extended periods of time, with parts of their brains missing, or heck parts of their heads at that.

[ReiKai]

When Luke can start moving at Lightspeed or better, you'll let us know. Until then, he dies instantly. Even then, he still dies instantly, because he's so far out of his league it's not funny.

[XantosCledwin]

When Luke can start moving at Lightspeed or better, you'll let us know. Until then, he dies instantly. Even then, he still dies instantly, because he's so far out of his league it's not funny.

 

So you are so set on Superman winning this fight that you are willing to defy the laws of gravity, inertia, mass, and a dozen other laws that say it is impossible for a man sized object to accelerate to the speed of light within a planets atmosphere. And you are so willing to ignore these rules that you use Superman's alleged ability to fly at the speed of light as a valid argument in favor of his winning a fight against Luke Skywalker.

 

Okay then.

 

How about this... who would win, Superman, or this guy

 

The rules change quite a bit once we pit Superman against a Force God. First off, Son is a manifestation of the Dark Side of the Force. He has access to all the powers of the Dark Side of the Force instantly, theoretically he can do them without the need for rituals. This includes Force Storms, Force Lightning, and Force Drain, abilities Luke could only use if he fell to the Dark Side. Additionally his powers are significantly stronger than any Sith's powers by virtue of his being a Force God.

 

Further, he has lived for 1 million years. This meas he has several thousand years of experience on even the oldest versions of Superman in the comics. With this advanced of an age and the fact that he can sense the lives of other beings, comes the ability for him to learn countless varieties of fighting styles. Son is in effect immortal, Superman is merely immortal under the yellow sun.

 

Additionally, like Superman, Son is indestructible. Only a handful of individuals could actually hurt him, End-Game Superman would likely be among those individuals. But point is he is very hard to kill. Additionally, Son is capable of shifting his appearance into anything he desires. This means that he can avoid Superman's lobotomy attacks simply by moving his brain at random or by not having a centralized brain to begin with.

 

Worst of all, he can manifest himself inside of Clark's dreams and defeat the Superman in his sleep!

 

Also, arguing that Clark is not susceptible to Force attacks, requires you to also argue that Clark is not alive to begin with. Because only non-living things are immune to the Force (and even that is debatable since the Force can affect Droids).

Edited April 16, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[ReiKai]

Actually nothing changed, and the Son isn't a Force God. And Supes has already fought with gods before. Nothing new there. Son is weaker than GM Luke anyway, so I don't see what you think has changed.

[XantosCledwin]

Actually nothing changed, and the Son isn't a Force God. And Supes has already fought with gods before. Nothing new there. Son is weaker than GM Luke anyway, so I don't see what you think has changed.

 

I could be mistaken, but I don't believe the two words "Force God" actually ever appear in exactly that manner within the cannon of Star Wars. That said, using the term to describe Father, Son, and Daughter specifically, is an apt use of the term as they are the last remaining members of the civilization that discovered the Force in the first place. Not to mention that the three of them together are the three most powerful entities in the known Star Wars Galaxy at the time of the Clone Wars.

 

Now it may be possible that at some future point Luke Skywalker discovered some means of surpassing Son in power, but as of the Clone Wars Son was the most powerful Dark Side user in existence. In fact he was the embodiment of the Dark Side. Meaning he was the living incarnation of the Dark side, the same way that Christains believe Jesus is the living incarnation of God.

 

Being the living incarnation of the energy field that gives life to everything in the universe, would kind of by default give you the distinction of being a God. At least it would according to most ancient Religions on Earth at any rate.

Edited April 16, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[ReiKai]

Hyperbole doesn't work here. Son never did anything impressive, nor of any real importance. Honestly there are dozens of Sith who've done far more than he ever did. And what they say means nothing. Same as Maul saying he once served "The most Powerful Being in the Galaxy". It's completely pointless. If the Son was so powerful he never would've needed a ship to get off Mortis. He also wasn't the strongest DS user at the time either. Technically that would be Exar Kun's Force Ghost that was still slumbering away. Or maybe even Marka Ragnos'.

 

In the end, the Son still got shanked by a lightsaber.

[XantosCledwin]

Hyperbole doesn't work here. Son never did anything impressive, nor of any real importance. Honestly there are dozens of Sith who've done far more than he ever did. And what they say means nothing. Same as Maul saying he once served "The most Powerful Being in the Galaxy". It's completely pointless. If the Son was so powerful he never would've needed a ship to get off Mortis. He also wasn't the strongest DS user at the time either. Technically that would be Exar Kun's Force Ghost that was still slumbering away. Or maybe even Marka Ragnos'.

 

In the end, the Son still got shanked by a lightsaber.

 

um... dude, he may be the embodiment of the Dark Side, but he is still confined by the laws of physics (as are all things in the Star Wars Universe) and according to the Laws of physics living creatures (with very few exceptions) cannot breathe in outer space. There have been a few notable exceptions such as the giant worm that swallowed the Millenium Falcon, but for the most part this is a constant.

 

As for him not doing anything impressive? I think living for 1,000,000 years counts as impressive. Nothing else in the Star Wars universe except his father and sister can claim to have lived that long (unless you count Droids). Even things in Stasis generally don't live that long. So having the ability to live for 1/13,000th of the total time the Star Wars Galaxy has existed (prior to the Battle of Yevon), is an impressive feat in my opinion.

 

That amount of time is enough time to see civilizations rise, fall, and rise again. He was alive to see both the Jedi and Sith Orders come into existence. And he saw the Old Jedi Order in it's final days. He saw the War that is currently waging in SWTOR. He has been there for it all.

Edited April 16, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[ReiKai]

You seem to fail to understand that such concepts hold no meaning in Fiction. Any laws of the universe that we perceive are not infallible as we are only limited by what we can know and understand currently. Fiction strips away such mundane concerns, so there's really no reason to bother with clinging to such things.

 

If you really wanted to try physics. Then let's say, what the mass of an object is moving at the speed of light and how that object would affect a living organism in the form of, say, Luke Skywalker, when striking him at a velocity in excess of lightspeed.

[XantosCledwin]

You seem to fail to understand that such concepts hold no meaning in Fiction. Any laws of the universe that we perceive are not infallible as we are only limited by what we can know and understand currently. Fiction strips away such mundane concerns, so there's really no reason to bother with clinging to such things.

 

If you really wanted to try physics. Then let's say, what the mass of an object is moving at the speed of light and how that object would affect a living organism in the form of, say, Luke Skywalker, when striking him at a velocity in excess of lightspeed.

 

Superman might as well be Cthulu then.

[Airmo]

Superman might as well be Cthulu then.

 

So Supes win's.

 

/Thread