Undying Rage vs Force Shroud

[Neamhan]

Force Shroud mitigations tech and force damage, it DOES NOT mitigation white damage. Meaning you will still take FULL damage from white damage attacks.

 

Im pretty sure that Undying Rage mitigates all damage regardless of type.

 

The force leap roots will also work right through Resilience/Force Shroud (as well as right through Resilience). So if you see a ball running try to sprint through fire with Force Shroud up, Force Leap him and he'll be rooted in the fire like everyone else. You'll be in the fire too, of course, but the goal is to stop the ball carrier.

 

By the way, I'm not getting into which of Force Shroud or Undying Rage is 'better' (both are strong, so it doesn't really matter imo), I'm just want to make sure people are aware of what Force Shroud can and can't do.

[Neamhan]

What I don't understand is why they gave the assassin force shroud the ability to resist the two most numerous types of damage while the op version only dodges ranged and physical. Would make a lot more sense if they made the assassin one resist physical and force and the ops resist ranged and tech.

 

I would assume it's so Assassins can tank Flashpoints/Operations, where they need the defense against tech/force since they don't get a +DR cooldown.

[MrXen]

Marauder:

 

Undying Rage:

Instant

Cooldown: 90s

Spends 50% of current health to grant 99% damage reduction for 5 seconds

(brought down to 75s with 2 set pvp)

 

Assassin:

Force Shroud:

Instant

Cooldown: 60s

Removes all hostile removable effects and increases your chance to resist Force and tech attacks by 100% for 3 seconds. Does not break Stealth.

 

How can people be crying about undying rage when Assassin's have this skill AND can spec tank with dps gear and outperform every other class in terms of damage excluding vanguards and can have white damage mitigation via shields.

 

The fact of the matter is there is no counter to force shroud, while there is a counter to undying rage, specifically knockbacks and cc's.

 

If a marauder is using undying rage, it means their other defensive cooldowns aren't up. This is troubling especially in huttball, where teams stack assassin's and run with sprint and force shroud.

 

Can someone please give me valid reasons as to why this skill isn't worth bringing up yet undying rage is?

 

 

I want you to read this out loud and compare: 1 apple, 2 apple, 3 apple done.

 

 

Now read this: 1 apple, 2 apple, 3 apple, 4 apple, 5 apple done.

 

 

 

Now realize the one that lasts longer reduces 99% of all forms of damage, making the user entirely invincible for all intents and purposes.

 

 

 

Now also realize force shroud only makes the user immune to tech/force meaning white damage AS WELL AS things like rail shot still do full damage (a lot more common and painful than given credit in whiney threads like this).

 

 

 

The shadow or sin still has two more cooldowns at their disposal after the use of force shroud,

Deflection and unbreakable will respectively. No assassin with half a brain would use force shroud in the same circumstance that a marauder uses undying rage, which is near death.

 

Show me a marauder that uses saber ward or cloak of pain after using undying rage. You will have used those skills before undying rage.

 

 

I want you to now realize that deflection is nearly worthless and force/tech attacks go right through it.

 

 

I also want you to realize that unbreakable will is a CC breaker, which every class in the entire game also has on the same cooldown.

 

 

Now I also want you to realize that in comparing "2 skills" you brought in (in a very biased opinionated manner) 2 other skills that the class you dislike has without comparing OTHER skills your class has, as if to make it seem unbalanced. Using the statement "other cooldowns at disposal" as if a marauder would be "unable" to have its cooldowns available ever.

 

 

So now let me do you one further: a smart marauder will use undying rage with a full resolve bar (immune to cc) or with cc-breaker up. A smart marauder would also take advantage of cloak of pain in the right situation making it impossible to detect and move faster.

 

 

 

 

 

As an assassin I'll trade you those skills. Wanna put that as a suggestion since you think undying rage is less powerful than force shroud? I will trade you, nerf my class in this manner please.

Edited April 4, 2012 by MrXen

[LoKiei]

I agree that sin/shadow is far more overpowered then the rest of the classes currently.

 

That doesn't mean Marauders are balanced, but as of now they still don't come close to sin/shadow.

[MrXen]

I agree that sin/shadow is far more overpowered then the rest of the classes currently.

 

That doesn't mean Marauders are balanced, but as of now they still don't come close to sin/shadow.

 

Lol, provide statistical evidence or support before trying to nerf every class but your own.

[Dlema]

People seem to cry about everything on these forums. Do you expect every class to have the same abilities??

 

Yeah I did quote myself. If both classes had these removed they would be useless.

[Rizael]

Now also realize force shroud only makes the user immune to tech/force meaning white damage AS WELL AS things like rail shot still do full damage (a lot more common and painful than given credit in whiney threads like this).

 

Just wanted to point out that you cant be hit by rail shot while in force shroud as it requires a stun or a dot to be on you which force shroud prevents. The hardest hitting thing you can get hit by in force shroud is a sniper.

[Froggert]

From a strictly mitigation standpoint Undying Rage is clearly better, but from a usefullness standpoint Force Shroud easily wins.

 

I would much rather be able to simple ignore CCs while kicking the **** out of someone, than basically hit my 5s of damage mitigation that HALVES my health. When a Mara hits Undying Rage they are either in a 1v1 or they are admitting defeat and trying to take what they can with them. When a Sin pops Force Shroud its to kick your *** without being able to be stopped.

 

So I can have 5s to live and be completely CC-able, or 4s of constant damage output.

 

The OPs point isn't that Force Shroud is MORE op. Its that people are crying about Undying rage while at the same time Force Shroud is equal and arguably better than Undying Rage and yet no one seems to care.

 

Quit QQing and learn to play around it. "Oh look Undying Rage" Stun. "Oh he's got Shroud up" Pop a defensive cd or kite away. Neither of them is OP they just force the ignorant masses to think, and that makes them cry.

[Dentari]

Warrior force leaps still root assassins even through force shroud. And jugs can talent it to last 3 seconds, almost the entire duration of force shroud.

[Adzzy]

Now also realize force shroud only makes the user immune to tech/force meaning white damage AS WELL AS things like rail shot still do full damage (a lot more common and painful than given credit in whiney threads like this).

 

you can't do rail shot on someone using force shroud.

 

I'd imagine that a lot of marauders will go carnage this patch though, ravage/master strike root is probably going to pretty painful on top of snipers attacks currently.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Adzzy

[HyperThomas]

As an Assassin I do rarely get snared while Shrouding. I must point out however the obviousness of someone using Undying Rage versus Force Shroud. Personally Shroud is only super amaxing in Huttball, anywhere else I'd take Undying Rage. Simply due to the substantial difference in CC usage.

 

In all reality it's situational and seeing my mega crit doing 33 damage sucks as much as everyone else's resisted grapples as I go to score.

 

I would take undying rage for the exact same reason. Marauders can actually use the ability to get over fire with virtually no damage in huttball anyway, force shroud only prevents force/tech based CC and absorbs 50% (estimated) of damage abilities, doesn't last as long too (for infiltration shadows).

[Astarica]

The only white attack that hits extremely hard is Railshot, and Force Shroud cleanses all dots when you use it, which prevents Railshot from being used (target must be dotted).

 

White damage is just not very powerful in this game. Back in the mega standoffs in Ilum I'd get grappled into a sea of 20+ reds, pop Force Shroud and sprint away and only lose 20% of my life. Try doing that with a 100% dodge ability and you'll be dead immediately. Almost all the most powerful attacks in the game are Force/Tech type. Not to mention Assassins do start with the highest base avoidance which works on white attacks.

 

Another constantly overlooked fact is that Undying Rage absolutely cannot be used while you're winning, since using it destroys whatever advantage you may have had due to the health cost, while Force Shroud can be safely use to turn an advantage into a rout.

[HyperThomas]

Not to mention Assassins do start with the highest base avoidance which works on white attacks.

Wait... what?

Also,

Not to mention light armor compared to medium armor. K thx.

[Adzzy]

Wait... what?

Also,

Not to mention light armor compared to medium armor. K thx.

 

deception assassins are a 1v1 class, that's about it....the good pvp spec, the assassin has heavy armor equivalent....

[HyperThomas]

deception assassins are a 1v1 class, that's about it....the good pvp spec, the assassin has heavy armor equivalent....

 

We are talking about deception/infiltration in this thread I believe. I was just pointing out Marauder (DPS) have medium armor, and Infiltration (DPS) have light armor. Wasn't trying to prove a point.

[Adzzy]

We are talking about deception/infiltration in this thread I believe. I was just pointing out Marauder (DPS) have medium armor, and Infiltration (DPS) have light armor. Wasn't trying to prove a point.

 

to quote the op

 

How can people be crying about undying rage when Assassin's have this skill AND can spec tank with dps gear and outperform every other class in terms of damage excluding vanguards and can have white damage mitigation via shields.

 

which isn't really a surprise since this is a pvp forum, and that is their pvp spec.

[HyperThomas]

to quote the op

 

How can people be crying about undying rage when Assassin's have this skill AND can spec tank with dps gear and outperform every other class in terms of damage excluding vanguards and can have white damage mitigation via shields.

 

which isn't really a surprise since this is a pvp forum, and that is their pvp spec.

 

Read the post, he is comparing the Infiltration/Deception Force Shroud to Undying Rage.

I made no comments about the Shadow tank spec.

[falcon_Xtreme]

Marauder:

 

Undying Rage:

Instant

Cooldown: 90s

Spends 50% of current health to grant 99% damage reduction for 5 seconds

(brought down to 75s with 2 set pvp)

 

Assassin:

Force Shroud:

Instant

Cooldown: 60s

Removes all hostile removable effects and increases your chance to resist Force and tech attacks by 100% for 3 seconds. Does not break Stealth.

 

How can people be crying about undying rage when Assassin's have this skill AND can spec tank with dps gear and outperform every other class in terms of damage excluding vanguards and can have white damage mitigation via shields.

 

The fact of the matter is there is no counter to force shroud, while there is a counter to undying rage, specifically knockbacks and cc's.

 

If a marauder is using undying rage, it means their other defensive cooldowns aren't up. This is troubling especially in huttball, where teams stack assassin's and run with sprint and force shroud.

 

Can someone please give me valid reasons as to why this skill isn't worth bringing up yet undying rage is?

 

I have a assassin and i could care less about undying rage. force shroud is ok but its more an escape tool, used so when we stealth we dont get popped out via dots etc.

 

Bh has cure which does the same thing minus, the 3 seconds buff. however bh cure can target other players not just their own character.. imho thats more impressive. esp since the cooldowns 5 seconds.

Edited April 12, 2012 by falcon_Xtreme

[Adzzy]

Read the post, he is comparing the Infiltration/Deception Force Shroud to Undying Rage.

I made no comments about the Shadow tank spec.

 

I'd suggest you follow your own advice, if he was talking about the deception spec, he wouldnt have said and spec tank in dps gear.

 

Last i checked, deception isn't a tank spec in dps gear.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Adzzy

[HeBeatsMyMom]

So why is it that when all you people are listing defensive cooldowns for Assassins you're blatantly leaving out half of them, including what might very easily be their best?

 

Invisibility. You vanish. Poof. Gone. If I don't have a dot on you then I can do nothing about it. You aren't there anymore. How is that not defensive?

 

Sprint. You are able to put a very big distance between yourself and an enemy. Is it strictly defensive? No. Does it give you more defensive options? Yup.

 

AE Knockback. You change the positioning on the field for one or more players. This can throw them off cliffs, this can put them out of range of being able to attack you. This takes that Marauder that just popped undying rage and puts him into a place where he can't attack you and you can attack him.

 

This game is NOT just about numbers and how each ability provides strict defensive properties. To you assassins that are QQing, learn your abilities. You have more than enough ways to keep yourself alive outside of your blatantly defensive cooldowns.

 

To all you others complaining about Marauder survivability - Go play one. Please. Just go ahead and change from your comfortable bounty hunter or sorc with their forgiving mechanics to my class. Tell me what the transition feels like. Really. I want to know how well you do PVPing with a Marauder with anything less than Full champion gear while being limited to melee range almost exclusively.

[HyperThomas]

I'd suggest you follow your own advice, if he was talking about the deception spec, he wouldnt have said and spec tank in dps gear.

 

Last i checked, deception isn't a tank spec in dps gear.

 

If he was talking about the tank spec, he wouldn't have said Force Shroud was a 3 second ability.

He is talking about both (or has no idea about force shroud), and I made a comment about the comparison of the 2 abilties HE LISTED. I never made a comment about the tank spec.

Edited April 12, 2012 by HyperThomas

[Astarica]

If he was talking about the tank spec, he wouldn't have said Force Shroud was a 3 second ability.

He is talking about both, and I made a comment about the comparison of the 2 abilties HE LISTED. I never made a comment about the tank spec.

 

He's probably listing the base ability since virtually everyone gets the faster Force Shroud cooldown talent too, and Disjunction unless you're 10/31/0.

 

If your Force Shroud isn't 5s duration/45s CD, there's something wrong with your spec, and that also highlights why Deception sucks, because they're the only build that cannot get 5s duration Force Shroud without dropping Voltiac Slash, which kind of makes the whole build pointless.

[HyperThomas]

He's probably listing the base ability since virtually everyone gets the faster Force Shroud cooldown talent too, and Disjunction unless you're 10/31/0.

 

If your Force Shroud isn't 5s duration/45s CD, there's something wrong with your spec, and that also highlights why Deception sucks, because they're the only build that cannot get 5s duration Force Shroud without dropping Voltiac Slash, which kind of makes the whole build pointless.

 

Most deception sins go for the 0/31/10.

You lose out on a massive amount of DPS going into the tank tree, so basically all deceptions have it on a 3 sec duration.

[Astarica]

Most deception sins go for the 0/31/10.

You lose out on a massive amount of DPS going into the tank tree, so basically all deceptions have it on a 3 sec duration.

 

You can't get Disjunction if you have Voltiac Slash no matter what.

 

Not getting shorter refresh on Force Speed/Force Shroud is basically having some sort of death wish for a spec that has no defense to speak of to begin with. You can have Exploitive Strikes and still have the FS reduction talent.

[HyperThomas]

You can't get Disjunction if you have Voltiac Slash no matter what.

 

Not getting shorter refresh on Force Speed/Force Shroud is basically having some sort of death wish for a spec that has no defense to speak of to begin with. You can have Exploitive Strikes and still have the FS reduction talent.

 

I suppose. I go for the extra DPS rather than the extra survivability, mainly because it is better for 1v1.

Survivability for Infiltration DPSers needs to be buffed, no doubt.