You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.

[thorizdin]

The problem is that you're premise is simply wrong. Jug's as they are today not " the curb stompee in most situations." They're getting a buff in 1.2 and will be even better than they are today. Now, are there somethings that could be improved? Yes, but Jugs are one of the better ACs in PvP and are a long damn way from the bottom.

[thorizdin]

The art of hutball is passing the ball and knowing where I have to stand and where I have to go in every second of the game.

 

...and that's the measure, nothing else.

 

Ah yes, except that Jugs also get a leap to ally which means its easier to get up on the platforms even if there isn't a cooperative opponent. You can in that situation throw the ball, but its better to leap to the ally since two people are harder to kill/stop than one.

[Midichlorien]

Ah yes, except that Jugs also get a leap to ally which means its easier to get up on the platforms even if there isn't a cooperative opponent. You can in that situation throw the ball, but its better to leap to the ally since two people are harder to kill/stop than one.

 

 

If there is a friendly player on a ramp. Good teams have a running team and a defending/zerging team. The first runs with the ballcarrier for protection the second does nothing else as clearing the middle (to be ready to grab the respawned ball) and the ramps...and good teams are very effective in doing this. You won't find a friendly player so often showing up on a ramp. 2 snipers in cover on each corner of the middle ramp will almost do the trick alone.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Midichlorien

[Rethos]

They need to go play some Retribution Paladin on WoW and get back to us.

 

The whole reason I went titan grip warrior dps in pvp. The Ret Pali rofl!

[thorizdin]

If there is a friendly player on a ramp. Good teams have a running team and a defending/zerging team. The first runs with the ballcarrier for protection the second does nothing else as clearing the middle (to be ready to grab the respawned ball) and the ramps...and good teams are very effective in doing this. You won't find a friendly player so often showing up on a ramp. 2 snipers in cover on each corner of the middle ramp will almost do the trick alone.

 

We can go back and forth with different scenarios but nothing changes the fact that Jugs have the best mobility. Teams will certainly try to limit that when they are defending and the team with the ball will try and exploit that movement ability. No other class has those options.

[Veeius]

We can go back and forth with different scenarios but nothing changes the fact that Jugs have the best mobility. Teams will certainly try to limit that when they are defending and the team with the ball will try and exploit that movement ability. No other class has those options.

 

Errrrr, don't powermechs also get a charge?

[Veeius]

The problem is that you're premise is simply wrong. Jug's as they are today not " the curb stompee in most situations." They're getting a buff in 1.2 and will be even better than they are today. Now, are there somethings that could be improved? Yes, but Jugs are one of the better ACs in PvP and are a long damn way from the bottom.

 

I'll remember that when I'm coming out of a stun at 30% of my health. Or when I use chilling scream only see a sage sprint away anyway, or when I get grav spammed from 30 yards away while rooted.

 

I wouldn't say we're trash now, but I also wouldn't say we're OP and deserve the nerfs we're getting.

 

Also, are you serious? Do you REALLY think 1.2 is going to be a buff to rage warriors? It's a flat out kick in the teeth nerf. Instead of being able to use our "crit guarenteed" move, we'll have to stack crit in order to use a move that doesn't even rank as mediocre, but is getting rammed down our throats.

[thorizdin]

Rage Jugs are getting a smack and frankly one that was deserved, despite the damage being predictable 6k (I've heard of larger but never seen them) PBAoE crits is a bit much. h Immortal and Vengeance are both good and lolRage is currently too good. Edited April 5, 2012 by thorizdin

[Schwarzwald]

Rage Jugs are getting a smack and frankly one that was deserved, despite the damage being predictable 6k (I've heard of larger but never seen them) PBAoE crits is a bit much. h Immortal and Vengeance are both good and lolRage is currently too good.

 

7.2k

 

http://i.imgur.com/shGEb.jpg

 

lol ez joke spec is ez

 

but omg, *gasp* one pug healer who really didn't even do that much healing! I guess all my points are now invalid because of the very presence of that one pug healer, who didn't even do a good job of pocket healing me cause I died 3 times! Oh noes, we can't have random stray pug healers ruining our theory crafting, even though the enemy team had nearly 3 times the healing done.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Schwarzwald]

Errrrr, don't powermechs also get a charge?

 

Yes, but they don't get force push into another charge.

 

They don't get an intercede which allows themselves to move again, and if they are rage specced, then they get a short gap jumper (obliterate) which increases run speed.

[Schwarzwald]

I'll remember that when I'm coming out of a stun at 30% of my health. Or when I use chilling scream only see a sage sprint away anyway, or when I get grav spammed from 30 yards away while rooted.

 

I wouldn't say we're trash now, but I also wouldn't say we're OP and deserve the nerfs we're getting.

 

Also, are you serious? Do you REALLY think 1.2 is going to be a buff to rage warriors? It's a flat out kick in the teeth nerf. Instead of being able to use our "crit guarenteed" move, we'll have to stack crit in order to use a move that doesn't even rank as mediocre, but is getting rammed down our throats.

 

What are you talking about? We still have Shockwave and Dominate, so maybe you should read the patch notes again before sharing your opinions on the 'nerf'.

 

Its a 3 second cooldown reduction that is being removed, so stacking more crit just for 1-2 globals per rotation is a pretty silly idea to me.

 

The default 1.2 vindicators will be close to BiS and won't need further min/maxing in most situations.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Veeius]

Rage Jugs are getting a smack and frankly one that was deserved, despite the damage being predictable 6k (I've heard of larger but never seen them) PBAoE crits is a bit much. h Immortal and Vengeance are both good and lolRage is currently too good.

 

Look, lolsmash hits hard, I get that. But you're deluding yourself if you think that's the only thing that can put out that kind of damage in that time frame. I've seen grav spammers chew through nearly a full healthbar in a single cryogrenade.

 

Edited to add:

 

Sure, you can put huge damage up. Any competent healer will erase most of that before lolsmash is up again. The other moves we have don't do the kind of damage that other classes can do. So sure, nerf lolsmash (by dramatically increasing it's cd), but if you don't give us anything else that hits hard, and worse make us prioritize crit, which is otherwise useless - you'll see those numbers go into the toilet, numbers, which, by the way, were created because the opposing team was stupid. You know full well how easy it is to stop lolsmash.

 

 

Edited one more time:

What makes me just shake my head is this:

 

To set up lolsmash you need to charge (1 gcd) and 4 ticks of either force crush or force choke. At ANY point of this, the 4 guys that you're setting up for the smash can just turn around and gang you to dead. And even when you get EVERYTHING ready, a well timed push makes it all go away.

 

In that same time, you could eat 12k worth of grav spam/rail shot. Lolsmash is op? really?

Edited April 5, 2012 by Veeius

[beyondkilling]

This really doesn't have anything to do with the post. I can out play a lot of people too, that doesn't make the class balanced - it just means I'm better at the game than the people I just beat. The fact that it's doable with what is, effectively, a broken class, does not change the base premise.

 

 

 

 

What is the scissors to the juggernaut's rock?

 

Plus I honestly don't care about 1v1 - I care about group combat, and in a group situation there is nothing a juggernaut can do that one of the other tanks can't do just as well while either putting out more damage or having better survivability.

 

i can 1v1 anything and win except marauder because they just have to many CDs and maybe powertech tank so u need to get better?

[dirtyv]

My point is you have to rate the different tanks on what they can do.

 

You'd have to rate each class in a certain aspect and then assign some arbitrary score to it and then compare the total scores in each field among the other tanks.

 

Like for instance, Jug tanks would have a much higher score in mobility and the amount of pure straight stun control.

 

On the other hand PT's would have a higher score in ability to suck up damage, etc, etc.

 

I think a lot of confusion coming from here is that people are not playing the strengths of a class properly and then cry when they see another tank class doing something that Jugs were not intended to be doing.

 

 

If we are going to compare tanks without the presence of healers, then you need to create a situation in which all tank classes have some sort of benefit in and then put each tank into that situation and rate their ability to stay alive.

 

 

This^^

 

I have an assassin tank which I love. When I switch from my jugg (which I play a lot more) it is so wierd switching gears from being able to charge and intercede everywhich way I want, and instead force speeding and getting around in other ways. Its a tough adjustment. Not sure what PTechs have but Im sure they have their own mobility issues.

 

Just one example how the playstyle WILL affect your play. Jugg is def not cut out for everyone... but it really is apples and oranges when comparing the different tank classes (atleast in PVP).

 

Let me just say its tough not being able to charge/intercede across fire pits and acid pools and out of the pit when you have been spoiled with that lol.

[bananaface]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=379289&page=5

 

and here you can read that schwarz is clueless about rage, cba repeating it again.

 

so schwarz dude, don't even bother trying to say anything about rage or posting an outdated screenie of a pre-nerf moment vs a 0 expertise target kk ty.

 

edit: changing the subject cause you know you're wrong wont do you any good, so either stay on topic or don't reply. yur making a fool out of yourself again.

Edited April 5, 2012 by bananaface

[WarbTen]

 

Not sure what PTechs have but Im sure they have their own mobility issues.

 

 

Vanguard / PT have Storm / Jet Charge as Tier 5 in their Talent Tree. Works much like Force Charge.

[Schwarzwald]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=379289&page=5

 

and here you can read that schwarz is clueless about rage, cba repeating it again.

 

so schwarz dude, don't even bother trying to say anything about rage or posting an outdated screenie of a pre-nerf moment vs a 0 expertise target kk ty.

 

edit: changing the subject cause you know you're wrong wont do you any good, so either stay on topic or don't reply. yur making a fool out of yourself again.

 

Its current patch. dated 3/28/2012. You could check the file data.

 

duh, the only thing that would explain numbers that big is that the guy had low resilience with a few sunders applied. Although it was an operative that I hit to get that number, so it could have been even higher had it been a sorc.

 

I didn't change the subject, you just failed to address my points in a consistent manner and will jump from one situation to another instead of explaining yourself. You've compared apples to oranges countless times.

 

The only person who thinks that I've made a fool of myself is you, and maybe one other person who just mimics your points. But hey, what ever gets you off kid, keep living in that fantasy world of yours.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Schwarzwald]

To set up lolsmash you need to charge (1 gcd) and 4 ticks of either force crush or force choke. At ANY point of this, the 4 guys that you're setting up for the smash can just turn around and gang you to dead. And even when you get EVERYTHING ready, a well timed push makes it all go away.

 

In that same time, you could eat 12k worth of grav spam/rail shot. Lolsmash is op? really?

 

I read that as "I have no clue what I'm doing in pvp because I am so focused on setting up a smash that I let myself die" Am I to assume your other juggernaut complaints are 'I died running through the fire' and 'Why are operatives killing me so often'

 

Setting up smashes should be second nature and a part of your muscle memory if you want to be a good Rage jug. This free's up your actual thinking for positioning and group survival. If you are just sitting there getting hit by that much grav spam, then you are bad or in horribly over your head. Also missing a Smash isn't a weakness in the spec, its a weakness of the player.

 

Also, there is no situation in which you should ever lose to a grav spammer 1v1 as Rage.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Schwarzwald]

This^^

 

I have an assassin tank which I love. When I switch from my jugg (which I play a lot more) it is so wierd switching gears from being able to charge and intercede everywhich way I want, and instead force speeding and getting around in other ways. Its a tough adjustment. Not sure what PTechs have but Im sure they have their own mobility issues.

 

Just one example how the playstyle WILL affect your play. Jugg is def not cut out for everyone... but it really is apples and oranges when comparing the different tank classes (atleast in PVP).

 

Let me just say its tough not being able to charge/intercede across fire pits and acid pools and out of the pit when you have been spoiled with that lol.

 

The amount of people who don't understand the importance of how positioning can effect the game is astounding.

[Veeius]

I read that as "I have no clue what I'm doing in pvp because I am so focused on setting up a smash that I let myself die" Am I to assume your other juggernaut complaints are 'I died running through the fire' and 'Why are operatives killing me so often'

 

Then I suggest you learn how to read, because that's NOT what I'm saying.

 

Setting up smashes should be second nature and a part of your muscle memory if you want to be a good Rage jug. This free's up your actual thinking for positioning and group survival. If you are just sitting there getting hit by that much grav spam, then you are bad or in horribly over your head. Also missing a Smash isn't a weakness in the spec, its a weakness of the player.

 

Again, l2read. I'm not saying it's difficult to set up a smash. I'm saying it takes time, and its obvious, and it's EASILY stopped. And no, you're absolutely wrong, missing a smash has nothing to do with skill or lack of same. It has to do with latency. If you don't get that, then you're kind of hopeless.

 

Also, there is no situation in which you should ever lose to a grav spammer 1v1 as Rage.

 

Again, L2READ. I never said I couldn't beat a grav spammer 1v1. What I said was that in group play, a grav spammer is VASTLY more dangerous to an individual than a lolsmasher. The lolsmasher is in your face, you see exactly what he's doing, and you know when you're about to get hammered. The grav spammer can be way the heck off to the side, half hidden by a column, and will do ****MORE**** damage in the same period of time than a lolsmasher will to an individual.

 

What you don't get, and it makes me sad is that 30k spread between 5 people IS NOT worth as much as 15k on 1 person. 30k on 5 people is a joke, it's easy to heal, it's easy to prevent, and the 5 guys ARE going to gang you. 15k means YOU ARE DEAD.

[Schwarzwald]

Again, l2read. I'm not saying it's difficult to set up a smash. I'm saying it takes time, and its obvious, and it's EASILY stopped. And no, you're absolutely wrong, missing a smash has nothing to do with skill or lack of same. It has to do with latency. If you don't get that, then you're kind of hopeless.

 

If you don't know how to compensate for latency, then you are a bad player.

 

Its not easily stopped. If it was easily stopped I wouldn't be doing 500k damage on average in premade v premade. So much for your 'easily stopped' theory.

 

Again, if you are missing your smash because of 'latency' then you are a bad player who doesn't know how to compensate properly. How do you explain players who do well in this spec then? Magic?

 

If you are getting 'easily countered' then that probably means that you are blowing your smash too early and hitting it while mid charge like an idiot.

 

 

What I said was that in group play, a grav spammer is VASTLY more dangerous to an individual than a lolsmasher. The lolsmasher is in your face, you see exactly what he's doing, and you know when you're about to get hammered. The grav spammer can be way the heck off to the side, half hidden by a column, and will do ****MORE**** damage in the same period of time than a lolsmasher will to an individual.

 

 

Again, sounds like a personal problem to me. You must have a really predictable playstyle if you everyone is able to evade you. Maybe you should switch targets once in a while, it kinda helps.

 

QQ more please, go play a ranged class if you think they are so good.

 

Only bad players and bad teams let a grav spammer even get his casts off. You are assuming that jugs are in the worst situations while the grav spammer is in an ideal situation. Your hypotheticals are bogus. Your thinking is bogus.

 

If you want to compare these classes then you either have to assume that both classes are in optimal conditions or are in the worse conditions. You can't be all like 'grav spammer sin the corner can LOS easily and do MAX damage to my sorry *** because I'm a terrible jug' and then be like 'but this jug is ONLY targetting one person and not making use of his force push to try to cluster people up for a smash because i would never think of using a thing called strategy.'

 

You have to compare them both in their idea or worst situations if you even want to have a shred of credibility.

 

What you don't get, and it makes me sad is that 30k spread between 5 people IS NOT worth as much as 15k on 1 person. 30k on 5 people is a joke, it's easy to heal, it's easy to prevent, and the 5 guys ARE going to gang you. 15k means YOU ARE DEAD.

 

I have more then 15k health. I AM NOT DEAD.

 

15k on one person over time is just as easy to heal through and considering it is interruptable and can easily be LoS'd you just herped your derp.

 

You have the most asinine comparisons.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Veeius]

I'm done feeding you troll. Enjoy your main and the free hk's juggs will be when 1.2 goes live.

[Schwarzwald]

OMG VEEIUS

 

Master of theory crafting, you were right, look at how I am unable to land a single smash, and how everyone I try to kill just seems to always be topped off by healers immediately after my smashes. Look at these people in full pvp gear in heavy armor!!! Dang!! I am just so weak! You are right, this is definitely the weakest build in the game and it needs to be buffed one hundred billion times

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mgiGjSyBqs

 

recorded in the last 2 random games I just queued into, obvious jugs need to be buffed.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Aethusa]

You win Bioware.

 

We get heavy armor. Seems awesome right? Then you realize it doesn't actually mitigate damage from the majority of skills, or mitigates only part of it and you're still taking elemental or internal damage.

 

- Quite right.

 

We're a tank class, so we should have more health than other classes right? Nope, not even if you make an effort to get more, because everyone can mod their gear to have the exact same mods you do and apparently DPS classes like marauders/sentinels should have more base HP to compensate for their lower potential armor. Except the armor doesn't actually mitigate most of the damage that kills you.

 

- Juggernaut is not a tank class, Juggernaut is a class that can be a tank. You' re a tank if you are Immortal specced.

 

Next, we come to base class cooldowns. We get Endure Pain, which seems like it should be good, but in reality just lets you live another 10 seconds maybe, 15 if you spec all the way up Immortal. At the end you will, 95% of the time, have a DoT on you and die to the tick immediately following the expiration of Endure Pain. I have this happen even when I have a pocket healer in PvP because suddenly I lose 30% of my health and then take a DoT tick while he's channeling a heal.

 

- If you use your Endure Pain too late, yes you die when effect fades. You need to use that earlier !

 

Saber Ward is actually a halfway decent cooldown. The problem is it's on a 3 minute timer. This is the ability we get in place of a 4 second stun that the other base classes get. Said stun has a 1 minute cooldown and can be decreased to 50 seconds for every other class. I have no way to reduce the cooldown on Saber Ward, which I can already use only 1/3 as often as the equivalent abilities given to other classes. Also, this ability is available to marauders so they get another defensive cooldown.

 

- Not quite right. For PvP Saber Ward cooldown is good.

 

Force Push is supposed to be our equivalent to Grapple and Force Pull, except it's on a longer cooldown and 50% or more of the time, the client has different positions than the server and you end up pushing your target in a completely different direction other than the one you intended, whereas Grapple and Force Pull you just have to deal with the possibility of bouncing someone off the ceiling. Only really relevant in a few places in Huttball.

 

- Quite right

 

You can spec Immortal and get Invincible, except that has the same problem Saber Ward does - the cooldown is way, way too long for PvP especially considering the abilities other classes get. In turn, you get to try and play in Soresu with terrible rage generation and damage output (which I did for the first 67 Valor ranks). Because tanking in this game is entirely cooldown dependent for PvP, you can tank for about 22 seconds (Invincible followed by Saber Ward) while tank specced. During that time, the best you can put out pitiful damage that can be healed through by an DPS specced heal capable class, which I don't really have a problem with, except the other tank specs don't have this issue. Powertechs get a 25% reduction for 12 seconds every 2 minutes. Assassins get immunity to tech and Force powers for 5 seconds (if specced into it) and a 12% self heal every 20 seconds that does silly amounts of damage while slowing the target.

 

- Quite right.

 

I finally gave up and specced Rage about a week ago, and the damage is actually making it possible for me to kill opponents and feel like I'm actually contributing to my team instead of just making us lose slower in bad matches. I'm enjoying this while I have the option to do so, before 1.2 is released. Once 1.2 comes out, marauders will be better smash monkeys than juggernauts because of Quick Recovery and the multitude of defensive cooldowns that make them more difficult to kill than a juggernaut.

 

- Rage specced Marauders does not make me happy to see around too. This is ridiculous cause with 2 lightsabers they need to be hard melee based classes.

 

I don't want to reroll. I shouldn't have to drop a character I've worked hard on since release because Zoeller seems to think that defensive stats do something in PvP and that class balance is somehow best served by making juggernauts inferior to marauders in almost every shape form or fashion in the DPS arena, and inferior to powertechs and assassins in the PvP tanking arena.

 

- Being a Juggernaut or Guardian is a matter of passion if you ask me. Cause they have harder parts in power than others.

 

If the 1.2 changes go through as posted, there's a pretty good chance I'm just going to be done. My subscription is cancelled as of right now.

 

- This is a game, if you don't enjoy, you don't play. This is the right perspective about it. But also you have the right to demand some things from producer cause you' re making payments to play.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Aethusa

[LordTie]

There is nothing wrong with Juggs in PVP. If you know what you are doing. As seen in the videos i seen and playing one they are actually a lot of fun and helpful in PVP. Then again there is always the grievers in the group that say something is wrong.