Point of Combat tree?

[Quor]

Watchman Sentinel here, and I've done a lot of research on the differences between the three trees, what their strengths and weaknesses are, and I've come to the conclusion that my playstyle fits best into Watchman.

 

Which is ok. It''s great, I love Watchman. But having been Watchman my entire time as a Sentinel, I'm curious about Combat and how it works. I don't much care for Focus; I have a Juggernaut, and I've done Rage spec on him, and it didn't really feel all that fun to me, and I know Focus, even as a Sentinel, won't be that much different.

 

But Combat....that's an entirely new tree. And ideally a new playstyle, or at least a new purpose. But I can't for the life of me figure out enough good reasons for going Combat instead of Watchman. I know why I would choose Focus over Watchman. Focus drops heavy aoe damage with buffed Sweeps. Whereas Watchman is more of a "hot knife through butter" spec, Focus is more like smashing the butter with a mallet; great against a large quantity of butter, but with slower windup and more recovery if you miss.

 

Then there's the group contribution; an extra two Centering per focus-user goes a long way to making sure I'm throwing out more Zen and Transcendence. That stuff wins matches. And Focus even helps with that, what with the Centering-after-Transcendence talent it has, not to mention the extra survivability thanks to the lower CD on GbtF.

 

But what does Combat bring? Nearest I can come up with is that it focuses on using Blade Rush and Blade Storm while buffed with Precision Strike (and possibly Zen if it's up) to REALLY tear down a single target. You'll be throwing out all this damage that is ignoring all of the targets armor and you'll be doing it over the course of 7-8 seconds.

 

But...that seems to be it. It has the utility of the root on Dispatch, and a longer range on Pacify, but compared to the PB Leap and lower Leap CD in Watchman, or just the raw damage you get from Sweep in Focus....I can't bring myself to spec out of Watchman. I just destroy casters with my 6s CD interrupt, I get self-healing on DoT crit, Merc Slash hits like a mack truck, and on top of it all I'm building Centering faster.

 

I'll be honest; I've never been Combat, or the Marauder analogue, Carnage. I don't want to knock the spec, even though I'm sure it sounds like I am....I just can't see any reason *not* to be Watchman or Focus. So for the Combat Sents out there....what is it about the tree that works for you?

[jbuschell]

edit: looked at combat tree and i saw nothing to back up my statement so im removing it Edited April 2, 2012 by jbuschell

[thepilk]

Well, on paper:

 

Watchman is based around a sustained DPS through DoTs rather than a front loaded burst, and as a secondary function excels at interupts. (reduced kick cooldown, point blank leaps)

 

whereas

 

Combat is based around windows of high burst damage, with a secondary function of mobility/anti kiting (extra roots, longer range specials focus, faster footspeed)

 

but... the reality of the matter is Merciless Strike does as much damage with no set up as a combo-d up blade storm in Combat, and useing zen while 4 DoTs are active provide more burst than Combats rush spam zen too. on top of that Merc slash has a progressivly reducing cooldown too.

 

This effectivly gives Watchman the best of both trees, because it already does Combat's concept in addition to its own with a single special...no need to set up combat trance and precision, no need to build up singularity ticks... just hit Merc Strike, and fire off zen when available and you have both sustatained and burst damage.

 

To me, Merciless Strike simply does too much damage baseline for a spec that is otherwise designed around sustained DPS. I might be biased because I like Combat, but i feel like Watchman's burst is too high considering how strong its sustained damage is.

 

Even after 1.2, unless Ataru procs get a crazy high damage increase this will remain the case. Watchman simply simulates enough of what Combats function to keep the spec from really standing out on its own in my opinion.

[Quor]

Well, thanks for this folks. Here's hoping they add a bit more to Combat, although with the new Master Strike, having an uninterruptible root that can't be stopped outside of using a CC will be nice.

 

But I'll probably stay Watchman, just because of that interrupt CD.

[LeonBraun]

There is a preference thing as well... I love the way my Combat Sentinel plays, and do great damage. Same can be said for I'm sure any spec, when played effectively.

[YourMomWasHere]

I've played mostly Watchman spec up to level 50 and 60 valor. I switched to Combat last night and spent about 10 war zones in the spec. I may have been a mistake to wait so long to do so. For me, personally, I feel more comfortable with the Combat spec. Maybe it's a lack of patience on my part, but I've found I'm not a fan of waiting for DoTs. I am doing 10 - 20% less damage, but I am killing more opponents. Hypothetically, DoTs needing to tick give them time to heal. With a high damage combo of Precision, Blade Rush and Blade Storm, that time isn't available. Small sample, anecdotal, YMMV.

 

I miss the 5m leap (I only put one point into Close Quarters). I miss the reduced cool down on Leap.

 

Combat can blow through sorc shields in a single hit, and I am almost immediately back to doing damage on targets instead of waiting for it to burn off. For damage reducing shields, I'm still doing plenty per single hit; Undying Rage can be an issue, but as a Sentinel with Guarded by the Force I know to wait it out and not burn big hitters unless they are REALLY low. Then I'm set up immediately for a crit Blade Storm and putting people on the defensive/running. And I have a root on Crippling Throw to keep that from happening. Plus if they fix the Master Strike root bug, I'll have that as well.

 

Combat works for me, and I'll be sticking with it for a bit. It suits my playstyle, it may suit yours.

[Cooperal]

It's a PvP tree. It doesn't seem able to pump out the damage of the others on a static target (such as most enemy NPCs) but it's got the CC to hold something in place roughly 15 seconds straight when blowing all its cooldowns (not including awe). It makes it's damage back for himself and close-by teammates when it keeps runners and circle-strafers in place.

 

As their additional crippling throw and master strike CC are specifically snares, not stuns or throws, they are not affected by the resolve bar. Of course the CC also helps to abuse fire/acid traps in huttball and buy extra time when defending point-cappers. Crippling throw itself has a 12 second cooldown and is further incentivized by the resulting reduced healing on the target. Yet another thing which sees far more use in PvP than PvE. We've all had those matches where a team seems impenetrable because they've got 4 or more healers.

 

Their passive, faster combat movement and their force camo CC-break can also squeeze extra effectiveness especially on the offensive. It's blatantly obvious that these abilities were never designed to help much on the NPC-front.

 

I main watchman now for PvE sake but this is tried and tested and it works great. Watchman and focus are prone to losing DPS to an enemy constantly repositioning themselves often ending up as a slave to their force leap timer.

[AdamLKvist]

It's a PvP tree. It doesn't seem able to pump out the damage of the others on a static target (such as most enemy NPCs) but it's got the CC to hold something in place roughly 15 seconds straight when blowing all its cooldowns (not including awe). It makes it's damage back for himself and close-by teammates when it keeps runners and circle-strafers in place.

 

As their additional crippling throw and master strike CC are specifically snares, not stuns or throws, they are not affected by the resolve bar. Of course the CC also helps to abuse fire/acid traps in huttball and buy extra time when defending point-cappers. Crippling throw itself has a 12 second cooldown and is further incentivized by the resulting reduced healing on the target. Yet another thing which sees far more use in PvP than PvE. We've all had those matches where a team seems impenetrable because they've got 4 or more healers.

 

Their passive, faster combat movement and their force camo CC-break can also squeeze extra effectiveness especially on the offensive. It's blatantly obvious that these abilities were never designed to help much on the NPC-front.

 

I main watchman now for PvE sake but this is tried and tested and it works great. Watchman and focus are prone to losing DPS to an enemy constantly repositioning themselves often ending up as a slave to their force leap timer.

 

All true except that you failed to mention that combat can't keep up. Atm, the combat tree is a support role - there's no damage (because its too situational)

[iiell]

Personally, I like the play style of Combat more so than that of Watchman. I think it really comes down to play style. Both are viable specs, imo

[Aaramis]

Also as of 1.2, Combat will have better melee AoE than Watchman with Zen + Cyclone Slash.

 

As for Combat, I think Yourmomwashere summed it up pretty well.

Personally, I'll be using my free respec tomorrow to play around with Combat for a bit. Worst case scenerio, I switch back to Watchman. But it seems like an opportune time to try out Combat for a change

[KhalifaHaze]

All true except that you failed to mention that combat can't keep up. Atm, the combat tree is a support role - there's no damage (because its too situational)

 

to say there is no damage in the combat/carnage trees means you're doing something wrong.

[Ainianu]

to say there is no damage in the combat/carnage trees means you're doing something wrong.

 

i agree, combat dps parses higher than watchman currently in my testing on dummies (and it was roughly equal in my timed tests prior to 1.2)

 

Watchman dps is however very easy to sustain and apply. Combat by contrast requires a lot of timing and anticipation, an unskilled combat spec sentinel can be completely useless if they are pressing things at the wrong times constantly, whilst a decent one can be bursting enemy after enemy down at a sick rate.

 

Essentially the static test dummies wont be doing CC's, knockbacks etc on you, which can screw combat spec more than it would watchman.

[EboahEboah]

^ This. If you can't do solid DPS with combat, your not playing it correctly. I have played both, and do combat because I prefer the playstyle. But at no point do I sit back and think to myself that my damage is any lower.

[babiegirlla]

Yeah, people who say combat is a "support spec" are just people who have never played combat and are completely clueless. seriously, they think "okay, so I just have to use precision slash and master strike and that`s it." I`ve played combat since I was full champion gear, and I will never waste a master strike until if i`m lucky to get it off with 1-2 secs on PS, that should not be how your rotation goes on a precision slash application, even with the MS buff that is not what combats burst came from.

 

They`re also the same people who charge a sorc, then hit precision slash, and immediately get knocked back or stunned, it`s like people said, if you can`t think ahead and don`t know the proper time to use your burst, you will feel like it`s a bad spec. Even going around and blade rush + blade storming does an incredible amount of damage even if you don`t notice it.

 

so many people are trying combat and calling it useless, it`s amazing in PvP, it always has been it just lacked utility and the skill of people to play it, which is why all you see in these forums is "combat is a support role and combat sucks compared to watchman" because people don`t understand.

Edited April 13, 2012 by babiegirlla

[Ainianu]

They`re also the same people who charge a sorc, then hit precision slash, and immediately get knocked back or stunned

 

This is exactly what i was referring to in my previous post, there is a lot in anticipation.

 

If your going to leap on a merc or sorc you can realistically expect them to do their knockback shortly afterwards. Result? possibly a wasted precision or an inturrupted masterstrike if you was silly enough to start those right away.

 

My method = run in... start with zealous or something, maybe hit a blade rush too if time, then the predictable knockback comes. NOW is when you leap back in (if your rooted you can usually get off a blade storm here too which has the crit from the blade rush you just done ) after your leap back in, chances are they have already used their CC on you if they had it, thus its 'usually' safe for precision window and bursting that guy down. NOTE: in many cases you can just stand in certain spots nexto an enemy such as next to a wall from the enemy so they will hit the knockback and not even remove you from melee range

[Kheg]

Yeah, people who say combat is a "support spec" are just people who have never played combat and are completely clueless. seriously, they think "okay, so I just have to use precision slash and master strike and that`s it." I`ve played combat since I was full champion gear, and I will never waste a master strike until if i`m lucky to get it off with 1-2 secs on PS, that should not be how your rotation goes on a precision slash application, even with the MS buff that is not what combats burst came from.

 

They`re also the same people who charge a sorc, then hit precision slash, and immediately get knocked back or stunned, it`s like people said, if you can`t think ahead and don`t know the proper time to use your burst, you will feel like it`s a bad spec. Even going around and blade rush + blade storming does an incredible amount of damage even if you don`t notice it.

 

so many people are trying combat and calling it useless, it`s amazing in PvP, it always has been it just lacked utility and the skill of people to play it, which is why all you see in these forums is "combat is a support role and combat sucks compared to watchman" because people don`t understand.

 

Your apostrophes are on backwards.

[ErisktheRed]

Yeah, people who say combat is a "support spec" are just people who have never played combat and are completely clueless. seriously, they think "okay, so I just have to use precision slash and master strike and that`s it." I`ve played combat since I was full champion gear, and I will never waste a master strike until if i`m lucky to get it off with 1-2 secs on PS, that should not be how your rotation goes on a precision slash application, even with the MS buff that is not what combats burst came from.

 

They`re also the same people who charge a sorc, then hit precision slash, and immediately get knocked back or stunned, it`s like people said, if you can`t think ahead and don`t know the proper time to use your burst, you will feel like it`s a bad spec. Even going around and blade rush + blade storming does an incredible amount of damage even if you don`t notice it.

 

so many people are trying combat and calling it useless, it`s amazing in PvP, it always has been it just lacked utility and the skill of people to play it, which is why all you see in these forums is "combat is a support role and combat sucks compared to watchman" because people don`t understand.

 

I agree. I've been a Watchman since leveling... I'm trying Combat again, and, it's definitely a different style - it's a lot more proc heavy and situational so timing is more vital, so more can go wrong to lose DPS.

 

I'm giving it a try... it's definitely NOT a support role. It just has more support aspects now than watchman for less survivability watchman has BUT doesn't mean combat is weak that way. Timing you precision slash is key, the 100% AP is where the huge burst comes into play. But Combat Stance and BS 100% crit and Ataru strikes for the 10% Dmg increase used properly all add up I think most ppl miss that or don't time it - and now MS can be a real crazy move, with adrenal, relic inspire and Precision on target... 5k medal wow. BUT can't rely on it. I think for new Combat players it seems that's your bread/butter and it's not.

 

A lot of ppl like me go from WM to Combat and don't give it enough time to get used to it, the rotation/styles are very different. I admit I was about to switch back myself but knew I just wasn't giving it the time to get used to it's difference. I don't know if I'll end up staying my minds so used to WM esp losing 5m leap and I miss getting healing medal lol but gonna give it a long try.