More Nerfs for Healers

[Morticoccus]

I'm still baffled by how many players are throwing the "bads" moniker around while proclaiming to be the true lords of PvP or whatever.

 

The way I see it there is too much polarization and simplification on both sides, leading to stereotyping of player strata. Pretty much, everyone think that they know everything about their class and that everyone they beat in PvP suck in comparison to them.

 

The faster people accept that learning is an infinite progression the sooner we can focus on the real issue at hand, namely the fact that Bioware seems to change the facts to suit their theory, and their theory to suit the complaints of players, rather than actually looking at the "metrics" before nerfing.

[Cebby]

nerf them, then nerf them before the nerf even comes down.

 

Facing coordianted groops I get rolled on my sorc healer. Facing pugs I can play without dying.

 

Guess what I am not worried about pugs, when ranked wz's come out will we even bring healers?

[LillyWhiteS]

This. Healing is the odd man out indeed. Defense/Damage cancel each other out, leaving bonus healing on it's own. It was required.

 

I don't know why people think healers get more, when every class gets heal, damage, damage reduction bonuses

 

No one seems to mention dps getting damage reduction, just pointing out damage and damage reduction cancelling each other out and healers also get heals.

 

I solo queue, so that means dps will be harder to take down, not by me as I am healing mostly, but by the odd person who actually protects a healer in a pug.

 

Also the damage reduction % is less than the damage increase %, have seen a SS to show it

 

Unless I am going about it wrong

Edited April 1, 2012 by LillyWhiteS

[astrocanis]

same goes for dps going into a situation knowing they cant take a healer out of a fight for good while the healer's dps buddy - once they notice me on their healer - pours into me hard

 

I can pop trinkets, cycle through my cds/stuns & interrupts and pray i make it in time

 

Its, at best, a 1 for 1 trade-off

 

We can - reasonably - only ever expect to delay a healer by putting ourselves at great risk of being taken out of the fight for good

 

anything else usually means (1) the healer is undergeared or (2) isnt playing his class properly

 

cross-healing is where it gets ugly

 

Like beating my head against a brick wall

 

So, 2v1 you would expect to win?

[astrocanis]

And you really think it's that different when you solo queue as dps? Almost no / bad assists on healers. Too often some stupid knight / vanguard pushed/pulled away the healer when I popped my relics so my dmg was reduced.

The grass is always greener ...

 

Then a lot of people in this thread say "Well, you shoulnt be able to kill a healer solo, you should coordinate with other dps".

But you can the say the same "If you want to survive / heal longer, coordinate with the tanks / other heals".

 

My main concern is the static trauma debuff and the dynamic healing bonus with expertise. The two extremes are:

With no expertise healing is balanced, with expertise it's way overpowered.

With expertise healing is balanced, without expertise it's way too weak.

The truth (the point of balance) is probably in between, but still we have unfair / unbalanced extremes for fresh people or max geared players.

Which imho is pretty bad.

 

You are seriously making the case that coordinating DPS (look RED NAMETAG) is as hard as coordinating survival with peels for healers? Really?

[alexsamma]

I'm all for it. The main reason I enjoy 1-49 PvP over level 50 PvP is due to over the top healing that out paces DPS. Going from matches with 60 kills to matches where literally no one on either side dies was just frustrating.

 

umm.... here is a link where five people have over 60 kills, with the top having 84 kills:

 

http://theazureblades.enjin.com/sysmodule/m/3999167/detail/44637#pid=445441

 

There are tons of matches where the kill count jumps into the 60-100 range, and there are epic battles where the kill count averages about 35 but the entire warzone is intense.

 

I don't understand why people want warzones where 99% of the time is spent waiting to get back back into combat...

 

Right now a group of players, spread across classes and "roles" can overwhelm a group of stacked dps and enjoy an intense round of pvp, the changes in 1.2 will make pvp in this game a slaughter fest where the team that can do the most DPS first wins.

[alexsamma]

wow so many bads crying on forums. Can't anyone decent see that healing is indeed too strong? I can dish out 700-800k dmg in a single warzone killing about 10 people TOTAL with my team assisting and interupting /ccing perfectly.

 

Why? Because healers can do 900k-1million healing getting guard / taunts to save them and they never run out of ressource to heal ever if played correctly. Also dont forget that interups just lock down one single healing spell and you can spam the others right after.

 

Try high end pvp with geared people with a balanced team with about 3 heals 2 tanks 3 dps. No one ever die.

 

The main reason? expertise increase and reduce dmg at the same time so if i get 20% dmg increase and my enemy get 20% dmg reduce nothing change there.

 

But healers get 20% increased healing and it will keep scaling more and more with increased expertise.

 

Power gives more dmg than healing : true, but dmg is also mitigated by more armor/parry/dodge and defensive cooldown and increase in max hp reduce burst potential as gear progress.

 

In order to balance things up they need to do those nerfs on healers so some people actualy die in PvP battle, otherwise the game gets boring pretty fast.

 

It was the same in WoW in the end. Endless battles of organised team bashing on each others at high ranks doing big numbers for 45 minutes without anyone dying.

 

You guys need to learn to protect your healers and peels dps off them and healers need to kite and use their cc and fake cast.

 

 

sigh... so a perfectly balanced 8 man team owns in pvp... who would have guessed?

Edited April 1, 2012 by alexsamma

[Orrow]

Its obvious now that Bioware intends to balance this game around idiot pugs that couldn't find their CC or interrupts to save their useless ***. The game is moving towards dps face roll tunneling something until it dies. How fun.

[Derian]

It's not bonus healing- it's lessening the trauma debuff that automatically applied at all times. It is still impossible for expertise to buff your healing to the point where you're actually healing at normal levels.

 

It's bonus healing in contrast to what we have now. IT doesn't matter about the trauma debuff. If it wasn't there then expertise probably wouldn't benefit healing at all.

[Diet-Hutt]

Its obvious now that Bioware intends to balance this game around idiot pugs that couldn't find their CC or interrupts to save their useless ***. The game is moving towards dps face roll tunneling something until it dies. How fun.

 

...did you read this?

 

 

4) I have a 12-second CD interupt that locks you out of a single heal for 4 seconds. It's amazing how everyone accused of being OP just says "well you be interupting ME" like they are the only one who needs to be interupted on the battlefield. Apparently I'm supposed to be simultaneously interrupting force lightning, tracer missile, ravage, and all forms of healing at the same time. I've got 1v1 against healers many times and at least as a gunslinger, I literally cannot kill you. I may lock out of 1 spell, but you have other heals to fill the gap. Then you have 8 seconds of freecasting before I can even consider interupting again. Interupts force you onto inefficient or longer CD heals, but they also cost energy and therefore reduce the damage I can put out as well.

 

That really needed to be said.

 

Lastly, PUB teams simply do not have the coordination required to counter healing.

 

Made worse by hackers.

This game has a lot of work to do to fix PVP and healers definitely need a serious nerf.

 

- DH

Edited April 5, 2012 by Diet-Hutt

[Jorges]

Some classes are raiding classes while others are PvP classes. It's all apart of balancing. If a class excels at PvP then it should be somewhat weak in raids.

 

No it shouldn't, each class should be equally viable in both PvP and PvE. If Bioware just needs to tweak the numbers right not disregarding one type of gameplay in favor of the other.

 

If that is too hard, balance skill seperatly for PvP and PvE. Then we won't have to listen PvP players complaining about skills being balanced for PvE or PvE players crying tears about skills being balanced for PvP.

Example

In PvP skill G does X damage and stun lasts for Yseconds

In PvE skill G does X+10 damage and stun lats for Y+2seconds

Now everybody is happy.

 

 

Otherwise we will have things like this happening

You like PvPing with class X and would like to start raiding aswell? Sorry your class suck at raiding, go level up class Y instead if you want to raid.

[Antipodes]

Its obvious now that Bioware intends to balance this game around idiot pugs that couldn't find their CC or interrupts to save their useless ***. The game is moving towards dps face roll tunneling something until it dies. How fun.

 

^ Exactly.

 

The Bioware PvP team is balancing on the lowest common denominator. Same reason that they are buffing Sents/Marauders, which are already top tier (easily top 3 among the damage classes if not the best) in the current version.

 

In the team tournaments I've seen, healers were dying in short order even with guard.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Antipodes

[FiftHorseman]

Im sorry if this has already been said but in 1.2,

 

Damage and damage reduction from expertise will not scale the same. Damage reduction will be less than damage.

 

And im sure everyone will agree that pvp balance should be based on Rated WZ, not regular pug WZ.

 

That said all rated teams will have around the same number of healers (and will adjust accordingly based on matches played what is the right number), so what is the problem with healers when both teams have the same amount?

 

Please dont base your opinions on random regular WZ, when the other team has 4 healers and your team has none, as these scenarios wont happen in rateds.

[Ahhmyface]

This thread is a prime example why most players are too incompetent to even discuss balance.

 

I'll spell it out for some of you.

 

1. Healing got nerfed by 4% in 1.2 at max expertise. Big deal. Do the math.

2. You have never used an interrupt in your life if you claim that the only reason healers own is because nobody bothers to interrupt them. You are so OP you don't even notice when people are spamming interrupts on you because you are alternating heals by default anyway.

3. It takes no skill whatsoever to spamheal yourself.

[fungihoujo]

It's bonus healing in contrast to what we have now. IT doesn't matter about the trauma debuff. If it wasn't there then expertise probably wouldn't benefit healing at all.

 

You don't understand math do you.

 

If you start with 100% healing, get 30% removed, then get a 15% buff- you're at 85% healing- while dpsers are still at 100% dps because they match up with the defensive aspect of expertise 1 to 1.

 

If there was zero trauma, and no benefit to healing from expertise- healers would have 100% healing.

 

 

Do I honestly have to explain that 100% is more than 85%?

[fungihoujo]

This thread is a prime example why most players are too incompetent to even discuss balance.

 

I'll spell it out for some of you.

 

1. Healing got nerfed by 4% in 1.2 at max expertise. Big deal. Do the math.

2. You have never used an interrupt in your life if you claim that the only reason healers own is because nobody bothers to interrupt them. You are so OP you don't even notice when people are spamming interrupts on you because you are alternating heals by default anyway.

3. It takes no skill whatsoever to spamheal yourself.

 

Ironic on number 2, since you've clearly not played a healer at 50 to see how much fun it is trying to heal with a sin or marauder on you.

 

Maybe you should take your own advice and let people who know what they're talking about discuss this hmm? You're right on one think, your post is a prime example why most players are too incompetent to even discuss balance.

[Ahhmyface]

Ironic on number 2, since you've clearly not played a healer at 50 to see how much fun it is trying to heal with a sin or marauder on you.

 

Maybe you should take your own advice and let people who know what they're talking about discuss this hmm? You're right on one think, your post is a prime example why most players are too incompetent to even discuss balance.

 

A sin? I am a sin. my interrupt is 9seconds with 2 talent points.

 

Please tell me how locking out 1/5 abilities every 9 seconds for 4 seconds is going to work?

 

Go ahead, I'll wait.

[Battilea]

A sin? I am a sin. my interrupt is 9seconds with 2 talent points.

 

Please tell me how locking out 1/5 abilities every 9 seconds for 4 seconds is going to work?

 

Go ahead, I'll wait.

 

With my Op healer, I harass other healers. On a merc, I let them have their small heal. It has a cooldown. I interrupt Rapid Scan. Now, that's 5-6s before he can land the next one of those. And before that one completes, I stun him. Now he's stunned for 4s. If he breaks that, flashbang and he's out of it 8s. But if he just waits out the 4, he's going to get his next rapid scan interrupted again. Now, yeah, he can use his basic attack to heal or use his AoE heal. But neither of those is high HPS. By doing that, I have pretty much taken him out of the fight.

 

The same thing applies if I target an Operative. I stop the Injection. That leaves probe, which heals 5-600 or 1-1.2k on crits every 3s, and he's probably already got it on his heal target. Or he can use up tactical advantage. And, again, crappy AoE heal. The amount of healing he's putting out drops, majorly.

 

And keep in mind that I am playing a healer Op. I don't do much damage. If I was an actual DPS class, not only could I mess up the healer's healing, but I'd also do enough damage so they'd have to apply what they do have to themselves, rather than others, as well as trying to shake me off by LoS'ing and such. And I'd probably have more CC abilities. But because I play a healer, I know what annoys me. And I do it unto others

 

But, basically, try playing a healer and you'll quickly see that just that 1 interrupt people have is so annoying.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Battilea

[fungihoujo]

A sin? I am a sin. my interrupt is 9seconds with 2 talent points.

 

Please tell me how locking out 1/5 abilities every 9 seconds for 4 seconds is going to work?

 

Go ahead, I'll wait.

 

2.5 second main heal- interrupt it at 2 seconds and you'll wait 6 seconds, then they'll have another 2.5 to use it so a total of 8.5 seconds to get off the main heal.

 

In the mean time- a weak hot can go off which'll no longer reduce the cast time of the main heal- that's 800 health+300/3 seconds. The secondary, 1.5 second heal for 1500 health is the back up- or a 700 heal/second for 3 seconds on 9 sec CD- and if you must, the aoe heal but that's not particularly efficient.

 

Since the big heal there is on CD, I'll assume you're smart enough to CC it to waste it. That leaves about 1k healing per second until the big heal's back minus your stun, which a healer will get off once- probably manage to heal around 6k health in ten seconds, plus crits so maybe around 8k on average, not taking into account your CC or pushback.

 

Can you do over 8k damage in ten seconds? Can you keep CCed for part of that to improve your damage even more? If the healer's moving they can't be healing, so did the healer just stand there taking a beating?

 

 

No, probably not, since you're a sin who can't kill a healer 1v1 it's pretty clear you're not a very good sin at all. Piece of advice- find out you have some abilities beyond just interrupt that can help you make a healer's life difficult. Or, find out which heal the class is most reliant on due to CDs, weakness of the heals, etc... and try interrupting it. Also, look up some of the guides on rotations so you can maybe manage to break 1k dps when you're in burst mode with your adrenals/relics up.

 

 

Oh, and get some adrenals and relics, that'll help too. Stop wearing shield and defense heavy gear, and... hmm, oh, right- learn to play.

Edited April 5, 2012 by fungihoujo

[Ahhmyface]

2.5 second main heal- interrupt it at 2 seconds and you'll wait 6 seconds, then they'll have another 2.5 to use it so a total of 8.5 seconds to get off the main heal.

 

In the mean time- a weak hot can go off which'll no longer reduce the cast time of the main heal- that's 800 health+300/3 seconds. The secondary, 1.5 second heal for 1500 health is the back up- or a 700 heal/second for 3 seconds on 9 sec CD- and if you must, the aoe heal but that's not particularly efficient.

 

Since the big heal there is on CD, I'll assume you're smart enough to CC it to waste it. That leaves about 1k healing per second until the big heal's back minus your stun, which a healer will get off once- probably manage to heal around 6k health in ten seconds, plus crits so maybe around 8k on average, not taking into account your CC or pushback.

 

Can you do over 8k damage in ten seconds? Can you keep CCed for part of that to improve your damage even more? If the healer's moving they can't be healing, so did the healer just stand there taking a beating?

 

 

No, probably not, since you're a sin who can't kill a healer 1v1 it's pretty clear you're not a very good sin at all. Piece of advice- find out you have some abilities beyond just interrupt that can help you make a healer's life difficult. Or, find out which heal the class is most reliant on due to CDs, weakness of the heals, etc... and try interrupting it. Also, look up some of the guides on rotations so you can maybe manage to break 1k dps when you're in burst mode with your adrenals/relics up.

 

 

Oh, and get some adrenals and relics, that'll help too. Stop wearing shield and defense heavy gear, and... hmm, oh, right- learn to play.

 

Here's the thing. I'm in maxed gear, with the best of every mod, the best consumable, the best relics, and even if I play perfectly, and I will still lose to a good healer. I make it my mission to kill healers. I wish I could debunk your example, but it makes no damn sense. I hope english is not your first language.

 

Here's how the fight actually goes.

 

1. Spammable heal : 1 attack in first 2 sec + interrupt + 1.5sec GCD :=~2k (voltaic) damage

2. Big heal : 1 attacks in first 3 seconds + 1.5s GCD + lowslash + 1.5s GCD, = ~(2k voltaic, 1k lowslash) 3k damage

3. Rejuvenate: 15 second hot, instant, + armor buff : 1.5sec GCD = ~ 4k (shock) damage, ~2k heals (over time)

4. Spammable heal (interrupt not up yet): 1 kb + 1.5sec GCD = ~1k (overload) damage

5. Big heal: 1 attack in first 3 seconds +1.5 GCD + interrupt = ~4k (discharge)

6. AoE/Bubble: 1 attack + 1.5sec gcd + stun = ~3k(voltaic + electrocute)

7. Any heal: interrupt is down, all stuns are down, relic/adrenal close to down, kb is down, out of force.

8. Slow climb back to full hp

 

Tallying up the dps:

Total hp healed = 2k

Heals interrupted = 5

Damage: 2k+3k+4k+1k+4k+3k = 17k

Healer HP: 15k + 3.5k (bubble) + 2k heals = 20.5k

HP remaining: 3.5k

 

Even interrupting FIVE HEALS IN A ROW, it's still not enough to kill a healer. And then I'm spent, and I can't do anything. Not to mention I had to time 5 abilities perfectly, and u had to mash ur face into your healing binds.

 

You're funny, insulting me, like I don't know what to do. If you ever die to an assassin, delete yourself irl.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[HanzBlix]

With the amount of interrupts in this game, a team that's not borderline retarded should be able to kill any healer as it currently stands.

 

I have a healing sorc and a dps sniper at level 50.

 

Healing is already pretty tough against opponents that don't lick their keyboard or roll their face on it. DPS is being increased in 1.2 with expertise increase, healing is being nerfed at three different levels for PvP.

 

Seriously, why would anyone in their right mind play a healer in PvP after 1.2? You're going to get focus fired, and between the interupts and nerfed healing your going to die in .5 seconds.

 

I honestly don't care one way or the other, I'm simply going to change to lightning or madness spec and screw healing. I HIGHLY doubt I'm the only one that is thinking this way.

 

You folks that complained are going to get exactly what you wanted. There are going to be very few healers and once a team catches wind that there is one, they are going to be focus fired down in seconds (or less). That will not be fun for said healer, they will either quit PvP or switch to a dps spec.

 

Having everyone play dps in WZ is going to be stupid, there is going to be 120 kills per game and you are going to spend half your time behind a wall waiting to get back into the action where you die again in a half second.

 

I hope I'm wrong, I really hope I'm wrong. Knowing how it currently is, I can't imagine this is going to be good. If you think healing is so face roll and easy, try rolling one and having a target over your head for 15 minutes.

[Ahhmyface]

If you think healing is so face roll and easy, try rolling one and having a target over your head for 15 minutes.

 

I'm amazed you've managed to twist the facts so incredibly. It must be nice to be able to warp reality to suit your bias so easily.

 

Answer me a question: why do you think a healer has a target on his head for 15 minutes?

 

Because he takes a full team's coordination to defeat, and if you don't, you LOSE. Not the marauders. Not the tankasins. Or the tracer missile spammers.

 

Funny how you take that as a mark of how bad you have it... Really, amazing.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Antipodes]

It would be blatantly obvious how easy healers are to kill if BW ever introduced cross server arenas. The only reason they are still good in WZs is 1) a healer can stay behind his teammates, and if a single damage class goes for the healer, the healer's teammates will help 2) respawns make dying a less important factor.

[fungihoujo]

Here's the thing. I'm in maxed gear, with the best of every mod, the best consumable, the best relics, and even if I play perfectly, and I will still lose to a good healer. I make it my mission to kill healers. I wish I could debunk your example, but it makes no damn sense. I hope english is not your first language.

 

Here's how the fight actually goes.

 

1. Spammable heal : 1 attack in first 2 sec + interrupt + 1.5sec GCD :=~2k (voltaic) damage

2. Big heal : 1 attacks in first 3 seconds + 1.5s GCD + lowslash + 1.5s GCD, = ~(2k voltaic, 1k lowslash) 3k damage

3. Rejuvenate: 15 second hot, instant, + armor buff : 1.5sec GCD = ~ 4k (shock) damage, ~2k heals (over time)

4. Spammable heal (interrupt not up yet): 1 kb + 1.5sec GCD = ~1k (overload) damage

5. Big heal: 1 attack in first 3 seconds +1.5 GCD + interrupt = ~4k (discharge)

6. AoE/Bubble: 1 attack + 1.5sec gcd + stun = ~3k(voltaic + electrocute)

7. Any heal: interrupt is down, all stuns are down, relic/adrenal close to down, kb is down, out of force.

8. Slow climb back to full hp

 

Tallying up the dps:

Total hp healed = 2k

Heals interrupted = 5

Damage: 2k+3k+4k+1k+4k+3k = 17k

Healer HP: 15k + 3.5k (bubble) + 2k heals = 20.5k

HP remaining: 3.5k

 

Even interrupting FIVE HEALS IN A ROW, it's still not enough to kill a healer. And then I'm spent, and I can't do anything. Not to mention I had to time 5 abilities perfectly, and u had to mash ur face into your healing binds.

 

You're funny, insulting me, like I don't know what to do. If you ever die to an assassin, delete yourself irl.

 

You've lost to the healer because you're at max hp, and they're at 3.5k and could be killed in two more hits? You've proven that a healer has done NOTHING in the span of time you've brought him to almost no health, and you can't finish the deal?

 

You're also talking quickest reaction time for a healer- sorry you have difficulty hitting your buttons on a character who must stand still, it's tough I know, you're just so pro.

 

 

Healers can't move while healing- making them an excessively easy target- decent heals are either on such long CD or have such a large cast time it's near impossible to not interrupt them or their usefulness is limited.

 

The only thing you continue to prove is that you're awful at managing your resources, getting off your rotations and you think that anyone who beats you is bad.

 

So, let's look at this logically- a healer can use big heal, small heal, bubble, HoT, aoe heal and channelled heal.

 

Big heal and small heal are the two things not on CD. Bubble can be kept up every 30 sec, HoT every 6. Channel every 9. When big heal is down to interrupts, you're limited to the small heal, which both sucks and eats your force. If you try to move you'll both be pulled back and lose time to heal yourself.

 

Yet you consider it 'bad' that a healer is spamming their big heal, or when it's down, their small heal? What would you suggest they do instead? There's no CC in a heal spec- you're limited to a GCD knockback which'll maybe buy you one heal, and a stun once a minute.

 

So what, exactly, do you suggest a healer does when they're being beaten mercilessly to 3.5k health from max by a sin other than heal that would make them 'good', since you clearly know that healing themselves and trying to stay alive makes them 'bad'? I'm waiting, not with much hope since your grasp of logic is around the same area your grasp of English is- it's all right, not everyone can finish high school.

[fungihoujo]

I'm amazed you've managed to twist the facts so incredibly. It must be nice to be able to warp reality to suit your bias so easily.

 

Answer me a question: why do you think a healer has a target on his head for 15 minutes?

 

Because he takes a full team's coordination to defeat, and if you don't, you LOSE. Not the marauders. Not the tankasins. Or the tracer missile spammers.

 

Funny how you take that as a mark of how bad you have it... Really, amazing.

 

I guess you're playing with a team all as skilled as you then- locking down a good healer as a sin/marauder is easy- killing them is a bit more of a challenge, but thank goodness it's a team game- find me a second decent mara/sin and put me against a healer, no matter how good they are they're crumpling in a short time.

 

I know, heaven forbid you learn to focus like everyone else.

 

I guess since you only play a sin though, your opinions are going to be the closest to fact, since nobody on the internet ever warps the facts when their OP class is under scrutiny and being primed for a nerf.