1.2 3/29 sniper changes

[Leman]

Imperial Agent

 

 

Sniper

 

 

Engineering

 

Interrogation Probe's cooldown now resets if a target is defeated while under its effects.

 

 

Lethality(Sniper)

 

Lingering Toxins is a new Tier 6 skill that reduces damage taken from periodic effects and gives Corrosive Dart and Corrosive Grenade a chance to apply a weaker version of the same effect when they end (even if they are cleansed).

Vanish has been replaced by Hold Your Ground, which now additionally reduces the cooldown of Escape.

 

^some good stuff for leth pvp methinks?

Edited March 30, 2012 by Leman

[kichael]

The lingering toxins change sounds great. Would love to know what the percent changes are.

 

But the change to vanish, does it not reduce the cooldown of evasion anymore?

Edited March 30, 2012 by kichael

[optimacy]

Instead of a dispel taking a full BM lethality sniper down to a level 40 sniper...now, a dispel will likely only make you a level 50 sniper in greens.

 

It's definitely a change for the better, but hardly a deterrent or anything that adds strategy/decision making to the equation for a dispeller.

 

The biggest change is actually the interrogation probe change. That is a big and needed benefit for an ability heavily relied upon in the engineering tree. It should tip the scales even farther to engineering being the best tree for PvP in 1.2.

[Veala]

Instead of a dispel taking a full BM lethality sniper down to a level 40 sniper...now, a dispel will likely only make you a level 50 sniper in greens.

 

It's definitely a change for the better, but hardly a deterrent or anything that adds strategy/decision making to the equation for a dispeller.

 

The biggest change is actually the interrogation probe change. That is a big and needed benefit for an ability heavily relied upon in the engineering tree. It should tip the scales even farther to engineering being the best tree for PvP in 1.2.

 

Er... what?

 

This is huge. Now if the dispeller cleanses the dots off of himself he still has two weaker hitting versions of both dots ticking away. Which means when the Cull arrives it's gonna be hammering him for full damage instead of tickling him for 2k. Depending on the % chance of the proc happening, this could eliminate the problems Lethality was going to be facing in rated WZs.

[kichael]

From the other thread on this topic:

 

 

FYI, it's being reported that the talent is 100% chance for CD/CG to do 15% of regular damage over 9 seconds when dispelled.

 

Great and sorely needed talent for cull to be usable in PvP. Pretty much kills the leth/eng hybrid, as no one in their right mind will be giving up dispel protection.

[optimacy]

Er... what?

 

 

Let me explain it to you...

 

Right now..a dispeller can negate almost all your damage, so I was being generous saying a dispel took a full BM lethality sniper down to a level 40 equivalent (it's probably worse).

 

After this change, you will still lose 85% of dot damage, but still have a full cull (which I remind you has a cooldown and high energy cost). Net effect of the dispel is not as great as before, but still brings your damage down significantly..hence, the new analogy to a level 50 in greens instead of level 40.

 

However, we are talking just 1 ability here - dispel - drastically impacting your damage. This is ON TOP of the normal mitigating abilities of a dispel class like assassins/ops. They can do alot more things to negate your damage too...among many other defensive abilities, they can just vanish during your entrench, cc you and/or deflect your attacks....now, you are back to being barely a level 40.

 

Understand the underwhelming-ness now???

 

Oh...don't forget...you also have to spend talent points high up a tree to get this minimum benefit, which neuters you in other areas because you can't get important hybrid abilities now.

 

Imagine if a healer or tank class/spec could be shutdown, neutered and killed so easily by several classes/specs. You don't have to balance the game around 1 v 1, but you also can't have absurdly lopsided balance either.

 

Abilities like dispel and immunity bubbles have always wrecked havoc on mmo pvp balance because they are instant, scale perfectly, and rarely have a resource or other cost that make it much of a decision. Just spam them on cooldown whenever needed.

 

I'll give BW credit for attempting to scale dispel more properly with this change, but it's equivalent to using scotch tape to repair a broken glass.

[Falser]

Let me explain it to you...

 

Right now..a dispeller can negate almost all your damage, so I was being generous saying a dispel took a full BM lethality sniper down to a level 40 equivalent (it's probably worse).

 

After this change, you will still lose 85% of dot damage, but still have a full cull (which I remind you has a cooldown and high energy cost). Net effect of the dispel is not as great as before, but still brings your damage down significantly..hence, the new analogy to a level 50 in greens instead of level 40.

 

However, we are talking just 1 ability here - dispel - drastically impacting your damage. This is ON TOP of the normal mitigating abilities of a dispel class like assassins/ops. They can do alot more things to negate your damage too...among many other defensive abilities, they can just vanish during your entrench, cc you and/or deflect your attacks....now, you are back to being barely a level 40.

 

Understand the underwhelming-ness now???

 

Oh...don't forget...you also have to spend talent points high up a tree to get this minimum benefit, which neuters you in other areas because you can't get important hybrid abilities now.

 

Imagine if a healer or tank class/spec could be shutdown, neutered and killed so easily by several classes/specs. You don't have to balance the game around 1 v 1, but you also can't have absurdly lopsided balance either.

 

Abilities like dispel and immunity bubbles have always wrecked havoc on mmo pvp balance because they are instant, scale perfectly, and rarely have a resource or other cost that make it much of a decision. Just spam them on cooldown whenever needed.

 

I'll give BW credit for attempting to scale dispel more properly with this change, but it's equivalent to using scotch tape to repair a broken glass.

 

I don't think anyone misunderstood your analogy, I think they're just disagreeing with it. While DoTs contribute to a hefty chunk of lethality damage, the brunt of your damage is still in culling a fully DoTed target. This allows you to do that regardless of cleanses. I can assure you it hits harder than a 50 sniper in greens, since they're still taking full cull damage. This is a huge (and probably needed) buff. Dispels have always been the bane of DoT classes in MMOs. They always will. If you aren't willing to work around this with some rotation fillers and selective targetting, you may want to spec out of lethality.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Falser

[psi_overtake]

I like the change to IP! Very very nice, and makes Engineering all the more awesome in 1.2.

 

I saw:

Lingering Toxins ... gives Corrosive Dart and Corrosive Grenade a chance to apply a weaker version of the same effect when they end (even if they are cleansed).

 

I would have preferred:

Lingering Toxins ... gives Corrosive Dart and Corrosive Grenade a 100% chance to apply a weaker version of the same effect if they are cleansed.

 

But if this is true:

Originally Posted by Somokon

FYI, it's being reported that the talent is 100% chance for CD/CG to do 15% of regular damage over 9 seconds when dispelled.

 

Then I'm very, very happy =)

 

The only thing I'm not liking is how hard it's going to be to pick a spec come 1.2!!

[nikthebeast]

Oh...don't forget...you also have to spend talent points high up a tree to get this minimum benefit, which neuters you in other areas because you can't get important hybrid abilities now.

 

This is a non-issue, since if you going for Lingering Toxins you'll want to go for Weakening Blast. Hybrid specs not being able to make full use of Tier 6 abilities should be self-evident as you play a hybrid and thus opted out from gaining the benefit from someone who've gone deep in lethality. Can't have it all as then why would anyone go full lethality?

 

On the flipside, for all you hybrid players out there interrogation probe now refresh on target death and calculated pursuit is a very useful skill as well.

[psi_overtake]

On the flipside, for all you hybrid players out there interrogation probe now refresh on target death ...

 

Meh, it's a nice DoT, but doesn't do anything for hybrids other than added DPS. It's much more useful if you stick with Engi

[Ayestes]

I personally didn't like the Hybrid Lethality/Engineering build before 1.2, but I did acknowledge it's strength in retaining energy. With Weakening Blast not costing any energy and a dispel protection talent up there you'd be absolutely crazy to play without a full Lethality build. At least in PvP.

 

A simple CD -> WB -> CG -> Cull combo does not put you into the lower energy bracket when combined with Energy Tanks. In fact, with a 50% DoT crit rate you will end this combo with ~93/110 Energy. You just did your burst combo that normally places you at ~72/110 energy. I think people are severely underestimating what can be done here with a full Lethality combo costing 15 less energy since it keeps you out of the lower energy bracket the entire time.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Ayestes

[nikthebeast]

Meh, it's a nice DoT, but doesn't do anything for hybrids other than added DPS. It's much more useful if you stick with Engi

 

I'm mainly a PvPer and make use of the 30% snare. Being able to reapply it on fresh targets is welcomed addition. The hybrid I am running now is more single target centric and I am definitely putting points into calculated pursuit(which will make even better as maintaining energy) come 1.2.

 

First stop though, 31 point lethality build.

 

Like Ayestes points out, the reduced energy cost makes a big difference as well.

Edited March 30, 2012 by nikthebeast

[optimacy]

This is a non-issue, since if you going for Lingering Toxins you'll want to go for Weakening Blast. Hybrid specs not being able to make full use of Tier 6 abilities should be self-evident as you play a hybrid and thus opted out from gaining the benefit from someone who've gone deep in lethality. Can't have it all as then why would anyone go full lethality?

 

On the flipside, for all you hybrid players out there interrogation probe now refresh on target death and calculated pursuit is a very useful skill as well.

 

I think you helped make my point even more. Are you saying the Lingering Toxins/Weakened Blast change is so good that it is better than being able to...

 

1. Get Cluster Bombs,

2. The extra cluster bomb and energy return from Imperial Methodology, and

3. Interrogation Probe and Calculated Pursuit which just got even better buffs

 

Not to mention...Lingering Toxins is primarily helpful only when you are going against dispellers in PvP...It is garbage for PvE whereas the Hybrid Leth/Eng build is viable for both...have fun respecc'ing multiple times a week just to learn the hard way what I am saying.

[optimacy]

I don't think anyone misunderstood your analogy, I think they're just disagreeing with it. While DoTs contribute to a hefty chunk of lethality damage, the brunt of your damage is still in culling a fully DoTed target. This allows you to do that regardless of cleanses. I can assure you it hits harder than a 50 sniper in greens, since they're still taking full cull damage. This is a huge (and probably needed) buff. Dispels have always been the bane of DoT classes in MMOs. They always will. If you aren't willing to work around this with some rotation fillers and selective targetting, you may want to spec out of lethality.

 

I didn't notice many people disagreeing with my analogy - just a few - but you helped make my point by mentioning DoT classes in MMOs. Have you played a Warlock or Shadow Priest?

 

Remember when they didn't have any PENALTY for dispelling? Why do you think Blizz had to add in these abilities? To this day, how many destruction warlocks do you see in Arena???

 

The answer is ZERO because they get totally neutered by dispelling immolate. On the flip side, how many Affliction warlocks do you see? A fairly healthy representation compared to other classes ONLY because they have a big PENALTY to dispellers. It actually makes dispellers think and strategize versus mindlessly spamming.

 

You could argue that the Lingering Toxins changes makes Lethality snipers slightly better off than a Destruction Warlock, but that is debatable and equivalent to comparing different forms of cancer.

 

As I said before, you don't have to balance 1 v 1, but you can't have totally lopsided balance issues where certain classes totally neuter another. It's miserable for the player and makes you a liability in a group setting. Why take a class/spec with such a big weakness? If full Lethality snipers brought some amazing utility that others didn't, maybe I could understand having a severe weakness on top of the many weaknesses already "balancing" snipers.

 

If you think the "amazing" damage of a full cull (whose base dmg was nerfed too this patch), is enough to lose all the engineering hybrid talents...good luck with that...look forward to seeing your video in rated warzones.

[vimm]

I like the change to IP! Very very nice, and makes Engineering all the more awesome in 1.2.

 

I saw:

 

 

I would have preferred:

 

 

But if this is true:

 

 

Then I'm very, very happy =)

 

The only thing I'm not liking is how hard it's going to be to pick a spec come 1.2!!

 

They're all going to be good, lol.

[TaiRevant]

So far it seems bioware wants to make the 31+ specs far more appealing then they are now, nearly everyone runs some form of hybrid and it's generally more effective then the full specs.

[psi_overtake]

So far it seems bioware wants to make the 31+ specs far more appealing then they are now, nearly everyone runs some form of hybrid and it's generally more effective then the full specs.

 

Puzzlingly, out of all the great changes they've made, they haven't touched Rapid Fire.

[The-Smasher]

wonder if u can get the 2 weaker toxins then re apply dart (mabye grenade if off cd) then get double your internal damage on cull which would do like a billion damage.

 

ps. A billion is accurate

[TheRagingPwner]

wonder if u can get the 2 weaker toxins then re apply dart (mabye grenade if off cd) then get double your internal damage on cull which would do like a billion damage.

 

ps. A billion is accurate

 

My guess is that if you re-apply the dots, they will override the lower ones. Seems like it would be a little OP if you were able to get double the bonus damage from Cull.

[Ayestes]

Puzzlingly, out of all the great changes they've made, they haven't touched Rapid Fire.

 

To be fair, I used to be a proponent of how terrible Rapid Fire is. It does look underwhelming when you look at it and when used without Target Acquired it's terrible. However after using it and running the math on it via Tibbel's spreadsheet, I realized a Rapid Fire combo is more damage then you could get if you could theoretically Cull twice in a row. Even the more cooldown limited Hybrid Lethality combo doesn't achieve the same results.

 

Rapid Fire Combo

TA -> SoS -> RF -> SoS -> SoS -> RS Ambush -> FT

~9.5 seconds with ~2450 DPS

 

Theoretical Double Cull

CD -> WB -> CG -> TA -> Cull -> *Cull

~9.0 seconds with ~2293 DPS

 

Lethality Cull Combo

CD -> WB -> CG -> TA -> Cull -> SoS

~9.0 seconds with ~2115 DPS

 

Hybrid Cull Combo

CD -> CG -> EP -> TA -> Cull -> SoS

~9.0 seconds with ~2283 DPS

 

Engineering SoS Combo

IP -> EP -> TA -> SoS -> Ambush -> Snipe -> Snipe

~9.8 seconds with ~2371 DPS

 

Rapid Fire is a lot better then most people seem to think. The only trouble is getting off 3 successive SoS in the 6-7 seconds of staying completely still. It's easier with Entrench of course, but any opponent you knows what you are doing better be LoS'ing or popping a Defensive cooldown or else they are dead by the end of it. Not to mention, come patch 1.2 Marksman has Sniper's Volley and Lethality loses a little damage from Cull's energy damage component.

 

Note: I did a little mucking around with the rotations to see what would be their best combination. I'm sure there could be even more improvements, but I didn't want to spend all day working on rotations I don't plan on using.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Ayestes

[Threskov]

But to get that damage, the person would have to either dispel the 2 dots after 6-7 seconds of it ticking, or the caster wait for his 2 dots to run off, re-apply and then use cull.

 

Since it is very situational, I agree with 4x bleed dmg on cull.

[Ayestes]

It's been tested, weaker versions of your CD and CG are overwritten when you cast the more powerful ones. You will only ever get Cull to interact with 2 DoT debuffs.

[Falser]

I didn't notice many people disagreeing with my analogy - just a few - but you helped make my point by mentioning DoT classes in MMOs. Have you played a Warlock or Shadow Priest?

 

Remember when they didn't have any PENALTY for dispelling? Why do you think Blizz had to add in these abilities? To this day, how many destruction warlocks do you see in Arena???

 

The answer is ZERO because they get totally neutered by dispelling immolate. On the flip side, how many Affliction warlocks do you see? A fairly healthy representation compared to other classes ONLY because they have a big PENALTY to dispellers. It actually makes dispellers think and strategize versus mindlessly spamming.

 

You could argue that the Lingering Toxins changes makes Lethality snipers slightly better off than a Destruction Warlock, but that is debatable and equivalent to comparing different forms of cancer.

 

As I said before, you don't have to balance 1 v 1, but you can't have totally lopsided balance issues where certain classes totally neuter another. It's miserable for the player and makes you a liability in a group setting. Why take a class/spec with such a big weakness? If full Lethality snipers brought some amazing utility that others didn't, maybe I could understand having a severe weakness on top of the many weaknesses already "balancing" snipers.

 

If you think the "amazing" damage of a full cull (whose base dmg was nerfed too this patch), is enough to lose all the engineering hybrid talents...good luck with that...look forward to seeing your video in rated warzones.

 

I'm not sure why you're balancing SWTOR with WoW. It seems irrelevant. Lethality is good now (and preferred by tons of snipers, myself not included), and is getting buffed in the patch. If you aren't doing well as it, simply respec. There's three unique options as a sniper, and frankly there's not a huge legitimate argument that any of them aren't viable or competitive. There's lethality snipers pulling 400k+ regularly while playing objectives. Expect to see that damage rise in 1.2 with the impending buffs.

[psi_overtake]

Rotations with numbers and stuff.

 

Great post, as always =P I started thinking about the energy regen, and it sounds like TA + new Sniper Volley + SoS-RF-SoS-SoS-Ambush-FT is gonna hit pretty steadily and quickly with the added energy and alacrity. Not very sniperish, but very gunslingery, which is still very fun. Sounds like great DPCT for burn phases!

[Technohic]

lol After yesterday, I noticed I was kind of excited to see they are bringing the PTS down today as well. Wonder what they are doing next.