How do you beat a Vanguard?

[Astarica]

Interesting argument, but I counter with this example.

 

Marauder/Sorc vs. Marauder/Merc Sorc is Hybrid and Merc is Arsenal, Maras are both Anni

 

The Marauders focus first on the ranged dealers (squishiest classes die the fastest). The first Marauder eats 2 TMs as he moves in and interrupts the 3rd one, 2nd Marauder eats a full channeled FL and a Crushing Darkness.

 

KBs come from both sides. The Mara on the TM-er Charges back instantly and the Mara on the Sorcerer is stuck rooted while the Sorcerer channels another FL into him, the Marauder then Charges to interrupt the last tick.

 

Merc uses the 2nd KB, Mara Force Camos back to him and continues DPS. Sorcerer Insta-WW's---->stun at the end, Force Speeds away, and kites with his slow, attacking with Shock, CL(if Wrath procced), Affliction, and Death Field.

 

By the time the Mara on the Sorcerer gets back to the Sorcerer, the Merc should be close to dead, his stacks of TM falling off, and had most of his damage neutralized

 

The problem with Mercs is that they have NO mobility. Their damage is all cast times. They have TM, which is easily interrupted, and no mobility so they cannot keep a class "busy"

 

The Merc can instant Concussion Missile too (without talents) followed by a stun.

 

I really don't see how the Marauder would have a problem with the Sorc in this case. I'd think the Marauder on the Sorc will finish the Sorc first just because Sorcs have less survivality than a Merc (if Merc uses Energy Shield, it wouldn't be close), and then the side with the 2 people win pretty comfortably. Both ranged DPS are probably dead in this case but that's not the point. Between their considerable survivality and that TMs continue to stick around to haunt the enemy after the Mercs is dead, they can usually at least get you a draw compared to any other guy the enemy could've paired with, unless it's something like MaraX2 or Mara+Sin versus Mara+Merc, but I think those two combinations will easily beat almost any combination of 2 players. If your partner isn't a Mara or a Sin, the Merc seems to be the safest one to pick.

[jitsuo]

The Merc can instant Concussion Missile too (without talents) followed by a stun.

 

I really don't see how the Marauder would have a problem with the Sorc in this case. I'd think the Marauder on the Sorc will finish the Sorc first just because Sorcs have less survivality than a Merc (if Merc uses Energy Shield, it wouldn't be close), and then the side with the 2 people win pretty comfortably. Both ranged DPS are probably dead in this case but that's not the point. Between their considerable survivality and that TMs continue to stick around to haunt the enemy after the Mercs is dead, they can usually at least get you a draw compared to any other guy the enemy could've paired with, unless it's something like MaraX2 or Mara+Sin versus Mara+Merc, but I think those two combinations will easily beat almost any combination of 2 players. If your partner isn't a Mara or a Sin, the Merc seems to be the safest one to pick.

 

But Mercs aren't hardy, they're VERY squishy. A Sorcerer has an instant cast Shield and can afford to kite.

 

Mercs can either kite or do damage, not both. A merc would have a Mara with 100% uptime on him, a Sorcerer can afford to run and gun.

 

If both WW and Concussion Missle land and the Merc and the Sorcerer get 30 yards away, the Sorcerer can keep them at 30 yards with the Marauder doing 0 DPS, the Merc can't unless he wants to sacrifice almost all of his damage. The Sorcerer can also Force Speed+Slow to get distance after the Marauder Charges in, the Merc can't.

 

A Marauder can easily kill both a Merc and a Sorcerer, but he will kill the Merc faster and with less damage done to him because he can always stay on the Merc.

 

 

The Merc always dies faster because the enemy will be able to stay on him 95% of the time whereas a Sorcerer can keep the enemy off of him while doing damage. He can't kite, he can't LOS, he can't move. That's why mobile ranged classes are better teammates. TM-ers are good in 4+ person groups, but definitely not in the top 4 classes to use.

Edited April 2, 2012 by jitsuo

[TheNegotiator]

I have continued trying to 1 vs 1 arsenal mercs the last few days, the results are the same as they've always been...BH wins every time unless they are both new and under-geared. I have gotten pretty good at doing interrupts on healers, I can keep one from casting dark heal for about 25 seconds until they force run away and then forget it. There are too many LoS issues in war zones to be able to shut down healers for any length of time without 1/2 the team on them.

 

Bounty hunters don't need to force run because they will just release from your cc and knock you back, a Vanguard does not have a chance against a well played arsenal merc. I can usually interrupt the first tracer or two but it does not matter, he has so many high damage attacks which ignore my armor I am nothing more than a free kill for him. Any of the L2P jerks who claim otherwise simply have no experience playing a Vanguard.

Edited April 3, 2012 by TheNegotiator

[Pistols]

Walls of text.

 

[justntrue]

yeh, walls of text about sent/mara killing sorcs and mercs lol, OP wanted ideas on hwo to kill Vanguard.

 

I play a 38 vangaurd tank spec, and I PVP all the time, so I'll tell you straight up that theres two different marauders:

 

1. knows how to play, and this is about 70/30, with him winning 70%

 

2. doesn't know how to play, and he loses 100% of the time.

 

The marauder who doesn't know how to play is dead so fast he doesn't know what hit him.

 

My method for a fast kill usually goes like this:

 

If I see him first (or I choose the terms on which the fight starts), I'll lead off with sticky grenade+hammer shot let him know I see him. He'll try to close distance with force leap if it's up. If he gets force leap it's straight into my first Def cooldown, reducing all dmg taken by 25%.

 

For a fight in tank spec VG vs mara, it's all about conserving HP during the opening attacks. my 25% reduction lasts long enough that he will blow most of his alpha while trying to chew through my shields and defences.

 

As soon as he's in range I give him stock strike. This starts ion-cell and triggers HiB, after HiB my sticky grenade will have detonated. He should have taken some damage about 10-30% damage depending on what defensive CD's he's used. I willl immediately move into Ion pulse. These attacks are good because they are tech and his defences will be completely mitigated.

 

Now he's dotted and I'll immediately check to see if HiB procced my insta-recharge stockstrike. If it did, I'll have the upper hand for this fight, and his chance of winning are quickly fading.

 

By this point, if I've scored any crits on him with stockstrike, he'll be nearing 50% HP, and I should be at about 80% due to better gearing than most people in under 50 WZ (I use head/chest/pants/boot/glove with purple mod and purple armour and whatever blue enhancement I can find for my current level.)

 

When he's at 50% HP and I'm at 80% it's time to make things difficult for him. At this point I'm usually getting a bit low on ammo/heat, so it is better for me to slow damage a bit and recover my ammo. I like to mix things up and see if he's capable of recovering, fighting and moving at the same time. So, my next move is to immediately back away, spamming hammer shot while facing him. This usually separates the good players from the bad, and the bad stand there trying to figure out what to do next... becuase damage seems to have slowed, they feel like maybe I've switched targets or their defensive stuff has kicked in... This false sense of security fades quickly.

 

I will spam 3-4 rounds of hammer shot plus sticky grenade again, meanwhile trying to put as much distance between me and my target as possible. At this point, good mara's will have closed the gap with force leap and be beating the sh*t out of me (I will use smoke screen or stun on them to slow this), but against most, I can just hold them at range... most will choose a new target, and, I will immediately use harpoon to bring em over to me, pop em with stockstrike again, then I pop my stun, and go back in the same direction I came from.

 

This infuriates most mara's and in most cases by this time the fight is well and truly over, procced 2nd stockstrike, full ammo, close to full health if I use a stim/heal, I still have defensive CD's up and I've utilized my defensive CD's at appropriate time to avoid the main crush of his damage, while utilizing superior range and confusing tactics to completely avoid his damage one he gets his rage/whatever going and charges up all his epic attacks.

 

So, to turn this around, to try to make kills on VG, in tank spec, you'll want to do a few things, 1, maintain strong mobility. 2. don't use force leap until he tries to open distance on you, (if he stuns you this is a good indicator that he may attempt to open range on you). 3. get your healing drains up early so you got a constant source of healing coming in for the duration of the fight, ESPECIALLY when the VG starts running low on ammo, since that is teh time to try to recover and really try to pound him with hard damage. 4. don't let him open up range on you, and if he does, try to get back with him with force leap. 5. don't bother with interupts except on ion pulse which really doesn't do a lot of damage anyway (better to try to max your own damage instead) 6. utilize view direction and get behind him where stockstrike can't land.

 

Those should provide you with at least enough hints to get you fighting on equal terms for most similarly leveled/geared VG's.

 

good luck!

[CaptainInsano]

It depends on RNG really. Some Vanguards can crit you back to back for 6k in the duration of a stun. There's no real coming back from that. Best thing you can do is immediately pop defensive cooldowns (cloak, saber ward) to mitigate the extreme burst and proceed from there. 99% of Vanguards are used to doing their 3 button burst rotation to make things die and won't even pay attention to anything you pop. Edited April 4, 2012 by CaptainInsano

[Kayse]

Currently I am one of the top marauders on Shien and i pvp against the top vanguard/powertechs routinely now and often win.

 

It sounds like, for the most part, you are doing the right thing. I imagine you are doing Annhilation, which is also my preferred spec.

 

My typical rotation at a start is Charge - Power saber - Rapture - Assault (or w.e, +6 rage) Annihilate (if proc'ed Rapture again) and i ALWAYS keep power saber on. You need to time your defensive cooldowns very well with vanguards and sadly Obscure doesn't do much since their tech attacks always hit just about, but it does take out some of their attacks which can help. Before you even face one make sure you have Cloak of pain ready, as their dots will keep it constantly ticking.

 

If you are proc'd into the 99% damage reduction with force stealth, use it the instant you hear their "beep beep" as it hits the hardest, this cancels out a lot of their burst at the start. Their damage though is honestly random as their procs are mostly random.

 

Basically, Cloak of pain - Obscure (when that time runs out) - Saber ward - while keeping all of your dots and snares on them, if you need to even through your crowd CC on them for that extra second of damage it helps.

 

Another trick i use against vanguards (and everyone) is when i get my 3 deadly saber debuffs on them i force choke them to get the most damage while they can't get out. (also why i throw down the crowd CC, it may make them freak and use their CC Break early)

 

 

Just always have your dots out, TIME out your defensive cooldowns, including stealths, and if you do not have the stealth damage reduction in (I dont) use a medpac the instant the explosion goes off. (Warzone or Rakata)

 

an example of how well i play marauder - Just click on the "60"

 

I could give more tips at the moment, but im not sure exactly what all you are having trouble with. I imagine the dots, OP stock strikes, and the spammable electro jolt shock crap that hits us like a truck. Marauder i feel takes the most practice esp against certain classes, name Vanguards/Powertechs and Shadows/Assassins (because of their dodge it makes it extremely hard to set up dots) If you have any exact questions just send me a message.

[Poulay]

you're doing something wrong, im a 40 marauder, and I've been dominating since 24, its just cake now, 300k dmg done, 7 medals avg per wz for me now.

 

I'm Annihilation , also spec'd more towards pve

 

So true...

[McGarnagle]

I have continued trying to 1 vs 1 arsenal mercs the last few days, the results are the same as they've always been...BH wins every time unless they are both new and under-geared. I have gotten pretty good at doing interrupts on healers, I can keep one from casting dark heal for about 25 seconds until they force run away and then forget it. There are too many LoS issues in war zones to be able to shut down healers for any length of time without 1/2 the team on them.

 

Bounty hunters don't need to force run because they will just release from your cc and knock you back, a Vanguard does not have a chance against a well played arsenal merc. I can usually interrupt the first tracer or two but it does not matter, he has so many high damage attacks which ignore my armor I am nothing more than a free kill for him. Any of the L2P jerks who claim otherwise simply have no experience playing a Vanguard.

 

are you playing lvl50 or low level pvp? What Vanguard spec? If you are a tank, yeah, you will have issues with mercs. If you are dps you should destroy mercs. Mercs are tank killers, yet are awful vs. healers (no interrupt, easy to los) and any melee dps 1v1.

 

As for so many high damage attacks? Once you interrupt tracer there is heatseekers (a cooldown and if you interrupted tracer you nerfed it), unload, and, um, fusion missile maybe? Power shot is not powerful. Railshot needs to be buffed by tracer, cannot be used on you until you have a tracer stack on you, and without the tracer buff it's really weak. Unload is a long channel, and without the proc from missiles you nerfed that too. Arsenal mercs only have 1 attack they actually use that ignores armor, and only the dot portion (fusion missile). Only elemental and internal ignores armor, and that is the only elemental attack arsenal mercs use (very sparingly mind you since it's a very high heat ability). Are you talking about the armor debuff from tracer? Well, you interrupted it.

 

On the other hand, the mirror to powertech pyrotech (I forget the name for Vanguard) will have a railshot (again, I forget the pub mirror name) that ignores a very high percentage of the armor.

 

Sorry, but honestly I know all the BH specs well and you seem to be the one who doesn't know what he is talking about. Please tell me you are not using lowbie pvp to compare classes. Some classes mature faster than others due to their trees and gear is all over the place. Once you get to the top end with full battlemaster vs. battlemaster you will soon find out arsenal mercs have very, very poor survivability and can pretty much only beat tanks 1v1 (assuming the other class is not played poorly). You can claim knockbacks and cc breakers, yet you have to realize arsenal mercs have people jumping on them non stop (high priority targets and have to stand still). Those are on cooldown all the time.

 

BTW...if you are tank spec, you should not being running around trying to kill mercs. You should be glued to your healer with your guard on him making both of you virtually unkillable.

Edited April 4, 2012 by McGarnagle

[Vaipyr]

According to the standard of the community here:

 

1) Run to forums

2) Create "NERF VANGUARDS" thread

3) Wait for everyone else to join in

4) Listen for BW to nerf VG's

[DrKarma]

I Only read up to page 3 before i was flipping my table in anger at the whole you cant kill vanguards if it has changed in the last 10 pages my apologies. I have a lvl 50 Sentinel and I eat vanguards, tank or damage spec, I am Combat (The middle tree) I have full champion and my Battlemaster lightsabers. i literally burst ANY vanguard for 4k with a bladestorm (Scream) and Bladerushes hit fairly hard as well don't have exact numbers at this point in time. But I haven't lost to a vanguard in a while unless they are packing a pocket healer then it gets interesting.