Concealment vs Our Cousins: The Assassins Post 1.2 Patch

[irdc]

Whirlwind does the same and you can not interrupt it since he can do it from 30m

 

And? A Scoundrel can knock out 5 people for 7 seconds or so with a flash bang.

 

Fine. How about this. In order to balance the class, we'll get rid of flash bang and add a 2 second cast time, 30 range cc. Would that make you feel better?

 

They run in stealth in equal vs a sorc, not another melee class with faster run speed.

 

Unless I am mistaken, Sorcerors do not get stealth ...

 

85% speed versus 100% speed. Advantage, Operative.

 

thats the area talked about, the center... not the actual bridge. that's pretty much LOL, if you are comparing a team defending the bridge node vs a tankassin jumping the center and getting the door open. His team doesnt even have to follow or the bridge has to come down. The tankasin can win voidstar solo after the bridge.

 

Yeah, but any class with force speed can jump the center. And if they do, then they haven't used Force Speed in 20 seconds.

 

I understand your point. But this is not an issue with operatives. It is an issue with the design of Void Star.

 

Its a core ability for what?

 

For your class. And I am not even talking about the double vanish shoot first bug. Vanish increases your DPS by a considerable amount. It is one of the best defensive abilities in the game.

 

Of course they will do it. its your hardest hit.

 

No, Assassinate is probably their biggest hit. If you are going to complain about something, complain about that.

 

Seriously. Any Tank Assassin that uses Maul (consistently) is a bad Tank Assassin. This means that you should be able to easily beat them in a 1v1.

Edited March 30, 2012 by irdc

[irdc]

 

my main is a Tankassin. Just sayin.

 

Edited: My response was too snarky

Edited March 30, 2012 by irdc

[GeoLager]

Laugh. Well, now there are force-choking cyborg operatives in Star Wars as well, apparently ...

 

Darth Vader?

[irdc]

Darth Vader?

 

Not an operative!

[Gaucho]

And? A Scoundrel can knock out 5 people for 7 seconds or so with a flash bang.

 

Fine. How about this. In order to balance the class, we'll get rid of flash bang and add a 2 second cast time, 30 range cc. Would that make you feel better?

 

I rather get FORCE SPEED

 

Unless I am mistaken, Sorcerors do not get stealth ...

 

85% speed versus 100% speed. Advantage, Operative.

 

FORCE SPEED

 

Yeah, but any class with force speed can jump the center. And if they do, then they haven't used Force Speed in 20 seconds.

 

ONLY ONE CLASS HAS THIS.

 

I understand your point. But this is not an issue with operatives. It is an issue with the design of Void Star.

 

VOID STAR IS FINE, its the classes.

 

For your class. And I am not even talking about the double vanish shoot first bug. Vanish increases your DPS by a considerable amount. It is one of the best defensive abilities in the game.

 

Vanish is not defensive, its death precaution, defensive skills are things like rebuke or saber ward.

 

No, Assassinate is probably their biggest hit. If you are going to complain about something, complain about that.

 

Assassinate doesn't come into play at the beginning of a fight

 

Seriously. Any Tank Assassin that uses Maul (consistently) is a bad Tank Assassin. This means that you should be able to easily beat them in a 1v1.

 

They can also use FORCE SPEED consistently, in fact they can use 4 times for every operative vanish, it also removes snares.

 

 

 

 

kk....

[irdc]

I rather get FORCE SPEED

 

Well then. I'd rather zip around at 100% speed in sneak with a two-minute cool down on Vanish. And Bioware apparently agrees.

 

Vanish is not defensive, its death precaution, defensive skills are things like rebuke or saber ward.

 

I strongly suggestion re-evaluating the strategic uses of Vanish. For all purposes, it is 100% damage reduction because it allows you to avoid combat scenario that would otherwise lead to a quick death. Or it allows you to shift your DPS onto a target that is not getting chain healed. Or it allows you to get off that second Shoot First in the middle of combat, if you really need the extra burst.

 

And to be honest, it's probably the most "annoying" skill that a Scoundrel (and assassin has). People hate Vanish. That's why its great.

 

Assassinate doesn't come into play at the beginning of a fight

 

Exactly. Assassin burst is slow to build. Scoundrel burst is not. This is why the damage on spike is so low and the cost for Maul is so high.

 

Again, 50% of your force to use Maul. Non-infiltration assassins are not going to use this. I mean, when would you use this? As an opener? It's too slow and costs too much. If you are using it to finish off someone, you're going to use assassinate instead.

 

Anyhoo, have a good weekend.

Edited March 30, 2012 by irdc

[SableShadow]

People hate Vanish. Which is why DPS keeps getting nerfed.

 

ftfy.

[Gaucho]

Well then. I'd rather zip around at 100% speed in sneak with a two-minute cool down on Vanish. And Bioware apparently agrees.

 

I strongly suggestion re-evaluating the strategic uses of Vanish. For all purposes, it is 100% damage reduction because it allows you to avoid combat scenario that would otherwise lead to a quick death. Or it allows you to shift your DPS onto a target that is not getting chain healed. Or it allows you to get off that second Shoot First in the middle of combat, if you really need the extra burst.

 

And to be honest, it's probably the most "annoying" skill that a Scoundrel (and assassin has). People hate Vanish. That's why its great.

 

Exactly. Assassin burst is slow to build. Scoundrel burst is not. This is why the damage on spike is so low and the cost for Maul is so high.

 

Again, 50% of your force to use Maul. Non-infiltration assassins are not going to use this. I mean, when would you use this? As an opener? It's too slow and costs too much. If you are using it to finish off someone, you're going to use assassinate instead.

 

Anyhoo, have a good weekend.

 

People hate not having a GAP CLOSER and kited to death. Which is the case with operatives.

For tankassins, damage is not as bad as a juggernaut tank. If they had burst, on top of what they have already, might as well call it: SW: The tankassin republic.

 

Bantha please, tankassins dont need openers, they dont even need stealth. Stealth for tankassins is basically a direct troll to operatives.

[sTRaTeGiiZe]

my main is a Tankassin. Just sayin.

 

One that you obviously don't know how to play judging by your previous posts.

 

STOP COMPARING TANK ASSASSINS TO DPS OPERATIVES. You say because they both have stealth it makes it okay. Well, tank assassins don't even need stealth. It's nice and has it's uses, in the tank or tank/madness hybrid spec we have NO synergy with stealth. Calling a tank assassin a stealth class because of it is like calling an operative a ranged class because it can go into cover and probe or snipe.

[Gaucho]

One that you obviously don't know how to play judging by your previous posts.

 

STOP COMPARING TANK ASSASSINS TO DPS OPERATIVES. You say because they both have stealth it makes it okay. Well, tank assassins don't even need stealth. It's nice and has it's uses, in the tank or tank/madness hybrid spec we have NO synergy with stealth. Calling a tank assassin a stealth class because of it is like calling an operative a ranged class because it can go into cover and probe or snipe.

 

that makes no sense at all

[mrHaterade]

Seriously if you play an assassin for real, you would go the FOTM which is TANK/Hybrid with DPS gear, not infiltration.

I wasn't even going to bother posting, but I was laughing so hard after reading the above quote that I just could help myself.

 

Maybe you're on a sheeple server, but I see a lot more Deception/Infiltration Assassins/Shadows on my server than anything else. I've tried the spec and it hits pretty hard, but nowhere near as hard as my Concealment Operative. I personally use Madness because Darkness does crap damage and tanking is boring to me.

 

All the nerf whining cracks me up because no other class can kill as fast as an Operative. I, like any other Concealment Op, can take someone from full health to death in seconds with the double Hidden Strike trick. Sure, I'm a walking target for the next two minutes, but the option is always there. That's why they nerfed it. Accept it.

 

I also play a marauder. You want to talk about a lack of utility, I'll point you to the marauder thread. No healing, no guard, no stealth (don't even say Force Cloak), no range, no other job skills but chopping meat. Please stop crying.

 

Also...

Calling a tank assassin a stealth class because of it is like calling an operative a ranged class because it can go into cover and probe or snipe.

that makes no sense at all

No, it makes perfect sense. A tankassin is not primarily a stealth spec. It's a tank spec that can use stealth. A Concealment operative is not primarily a range spec. It's a stealth spec that can use ranged weapons.

Edited April 1, 2012 by mrHaterade

[Empha]

No, it makes perfect sense. A tankassin is not primarily a stealth spec. It's a tank spec that can use stealth. A Concealment operative is not primarily a range spec. It's a stealth spec that can use ranged weapons.

 

Guacho, this is essentially why you cant argue between tankassins vs concealments. They aren't our cousin, the Deception tree is the concealments 'cousin'.

 

But I feel for you, I got a deception assassin and a concealment operative. And I gotta say that I'm downing enemies way easier with my assassin than with my Op, I can even attack several players without getting my *** served to me (as I did on my Op).

[mrHaterade]

And I gotta say that I'm downing enemies way easier with my assassin than with my Op...

Seriously? I've had the exact opposite experience. Provided I'm starting the fight I can drop enemies a lot faster with my Concealment operative. Especially when I do this:

 

Again, this is why they're nerfing Ops. Yes, it's a bad idea to do that, but the simple fact is that a lot of folks do. Hell, I still do it to sorcs when I'm in a bad mood.

Edited April 1, 2012 by mrHaterade

[Sylriana]

my main is a Tankassin. Just sayin.

 

Your main is an assassin and you still think you should be mauling outside of duplicity procs?

[Toxification]

You're comparing concealment operatives to darkness assassins which is complete crap. Darkness assassins are supposed to be tanks and concealment operatives are supposed to be dps.

 

 

Warzones!

- CAN walk on fire unharmed - for three seconds every minute...yay?

- Easily can punt anyone off from anywhere

- Can Stun you from 30m. Force pull you from 30m/face plant. Whirlwind you from 30m. ( potential 12sec CC from 30m )...whirlwind is absolutely terrible

- Can jump first closed bridge in voidstar and win the game solo...this is more an exploit than anything else

- Can force speed to node in alderaan to take, also has faster normal speed. You guys have faster normal speed aswell invalid point.

-

 

Utility

- Force speed

- Taunt and Aoe Taunt on CD

 

CC

- Sap that doesnt fill resolve bar

- Stun 4 sec range 30m

- Snare mechanic 10m with 6 sec CD. for 18 secs... once you put two points into the talent sure.

- Gouge style skill, breaks on damage

 

Survival

- Vanish

- All dots cleanse skill

 

Damage

- Untouched after patch

- Deception assassins have no opener.

 

Gap closer

- Force speed- Probably the worst gap closer in the game.

[Xavory]

My medic Operative can have a bigger impact on a WZ than a Tankasin can (maybe not huttball, but you can't win em all).

 

If you want to compare the most effective spec for Sins, you should compare it to the most effective spec for Operatives.

[Mordeguy]

The ignorance towards assassins is getting out of hand.

 

You can tell a lot of the people who are complaining haven't played one since half the things they say are just wrong.

 

Yes, darkness sins are doing great in pvp, but just because both classes have stealth doesn't mean they are supposed to be the same. And I wish I had all of these miracle tools in one spec.

[Tadus]

If you want to compare Operatives and Assassins, the real imbalance is in hutball, where bioware made it so any 12 year old with a double-bladed light saber can score in 20secs. And resist every attack on the way there. There is no comparison to a conceal operative. We are in different orbits completely.

 

Outside of hutball or even in hutball(w/o scoring), I can down a champ geared Assassin just like everyone else.

 

My main complaint would be Assassin ressist/immunity bubbles. With a warrior, I can at least snare them when they go into invuln mode. With an assassin, I can't even do that. It becomes a 5 sec game of run around like an idiot till the bubble comes down.

 

If evasion was buffed so that we dodged everything and not just the normal attacks that nobody uses, I'd feel a bit more equal.

 

Also, few really use the double HS w/ vanish. It was there, but i think losing your vanish for an extra 3-4k damage was a pretty decent trade off considering our next best defensive ability is a shield droid that often gets eaten up by a dot.

[Ahebish]

I can't tell what you are comparing concealment to because you pretty much picked abilities from all of the assassins trees.

 

As an example, any assassin that has "pull" has to put 21 points into the tanking tree. Any assassin that does this will not have the Gouge ability since that is in the Infiltration tree.

 

So, let's take a look at the Infiltration tree. If you are going Infiltration (which is closest to concealment) then a couple of things happen.

 

1. You're not going to put anyone on guard because you're in light armor with, at most, a 30% increase in AC if you specialize that way. - Or maybe because you CANNOT put anyone on guard unless you use the tank stance (something ops don't have)

 

2. You're not going to get any self-healing. The "healing" for assassins comes from the Darkness tree, not the infiltration tree; Darkness uses Dark Charge, while infiltration uses Surging Charge. - Which a good DPS sin will use since surge is the better stance for stealthed burst damage and most similarly compared to concealment

 

3. Your force lightning can be interrupted and will not heal because you don't have Harnessed Darkness which is in the Darkness tree.

 

Now, let's look at some advantantages that concealment operatives have. I am more familiar with scoundrels so ...

 

1. You have a constant source of healing with Pugnacity. This healing adds up, over time. And if you pick the right talents, you can get a 12% bonus to healing.

 

2. You are in medium armor. You have more armor than an infiltration assassin, even if they take the 30% talent bonus, which most people don't. - Which doesn't gain 150% armor increase like Sins get in tank stance.

 

3. You can spec to have your stun on a 30 second cooldown. The ranged assassin cooldown is on a one minute cooldown. Of course, you can reduce this to 45 seconds but that requires sticking a fair amount of points into Madness which is a waste of points, in general. -Added to the fact your stuns do not give 50% resolve. Added to the fact we have 2 stuns that cause 50% resolve and a 3rd which requires stealth, requires target to be out of combat, and gives 100% resolve. Oh sorry I forgot flash bang which is basically worthless 85% of the time in just about all situations short of trying to escape from the gang beating of your life.

 

4. You can have your heal reduced to 2 seconds. I don't know why people don't pick this talent as a scoundrel; it gives you a free Upper Hand.

---

 

The problem with Assassins is not the infiltration tree. A lot of Assassin players believe that tree is broken. The problem is DPS from the tank tree. But, because operatives are not "tanks" it is hard to compare the classes. -Exactly so the fact you have 150% armor increase from tank stance negates the fact you have light armor so stop using that as an excuse. If you were a sorc I'd give you some leeway, but not as a sin.

 

Maybe because Lethality is a ranged spec?

 

Maybe because the other tree is heal spec?

 

Maybe because Sin hybrid builds right now are better than operatives?

 

Maybe because concealment has been nerf 4 times with a 5th nerf on the way?

 

Maybe because sins have never been nerf'd yet?

 

What's to compare we have 1 tree that is pure DPS while sins have 2 and 1 tank tree.

 

So when comparing a concealment to a sin (within the same spec relatively speaking) it means we only have the concealment tree.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Ahebish

[Obtena]

My orange doesn't taste like my apple!

 

I don't get what the point of this is. Assassins aren't operatives. I knew that already. If you think assassins are better, go play one and realize that class comparisons are not a basis for balance.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Obtena

[Ahebish]

My orange doesn't taste like my apple!

 

I don't get what the point of this is. Assassins aren't operatives. I knew that already. If you think assassins are better, go play one and realize that class comparisons are not a basis for balance.

 

The issues is the orange tastes better than the Apple.

 

Assassins have better utility while retaining all the same qualities of the Apple with some added flavor that makes them unique and better tasting in the same situations you place that Apple in.

 

Confused yet?

[Gaucho]

I wasn't even going to bother posting, but I was laughing so hard after reading the above quote that I just could help myself.

 

Maybe you're on a sheeple server, but I see a lot more Deception/Infiltration Assassins/Shadows on my server than anything else. I've tried the spec and it hits pretty hard, but nowhere near as hard as my Concealment Operative. I personally use Madness because Darkness does crap damage and tanking is boring to me.

 

All the nerf whining cracks me up because no other class can kill as fast as an Operative. I, like any other Concealment Op, can take someone from full health to death in seconds with the double Hidden Strike trick. Sure, I'm a walking target for the next two minutes, but the option is always there. That's why they nerfed it. Accept it.

 

I also play a marauder. You want to talk about a lack of utility, I'll point you to the marauder thread. No healing, no guard, no stealth (don't even say Force Cloak), no range, no other job skills but chopping meat. Please stop crying.

 

Also..

 

 

No, it makes perfect sense. A tankassin is not primarily a stealth spec. It's a tank spec that can use stealth. A Concealment operative is not primarily a range spec. It's a stealth spec that can use ranged weapons.

 

 

 

For 8v8 rateds no one will need you as deception. Thats a PUG SOLO spec

[Gaucho]

The issues is the orange tastes better than the Apple.

 

Assassins have better utility while retaining all the same qualities of the Apple with some added flavor that makes them unique and better tasting in the same situations you place that Apple in.

 

Confused yet?

 

^ explained so good

[Caelrie]

to be fair they can still do it back to back to back without waiting for a proc

 

Sure, if they're stupid.

[Obtena]

The issues is the orange tastes better than the Apple.

 

Sounds to me like that is simply a matter of opinion. Some people like apples, some like oranges. It's not really relevant if one is better in the eyes of some people than the other. A difference between classes is simply not a reason to insist on some change. We have already seen indications from BW that's not how they respond to class changes.

 

Honestly, I think every operative appreciates the spotlight on the class but from a dev perspective, you have some players telling them that assassins do this and that and therefore, poof, operatives don't work right. That's not a sensible approach. Class fixes are based on overall performance in the game, not some focused-feature comparison between classes. It's also why BW give you choice to make any character you want, in case you don't like the flavour you have.

 

What do operatives NOT do that they should be doing? You need to answer that question before making smart suggestions about what fixes operatives need and really, I don't think anyone here can actually answer that without understanding what BW intends for the class or they are super insightful.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Obtena