Iboga Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 The only issue I have with this statement, and maybe it's just because I'm a Scrapper, but it's entirely possible to be outclassed rather than outskilled... and that's just not fun. Maybe things will get better after 1.2 drops... but I fear it will be too late since GW2 will probably be out and everyone will have already migrated. Don't get me wrong, I can do some amazing things, I've single capped turrets against 3 players and had moments where I really felt I helped to win WZ's. We all have those moments, but it certainly seems that certain classes can do more good with less effort and that's just poor design if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukor Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 This kind of story is what leads bad players to call for nerfs, instead of simply understanding that in both cases you describe, those 4 players SUCKED MONKEY BALLS. If they were me + 3 of my guild mates, you would have died in approximately 2 GCDs, maybe 3 tops. You are not overpowered or "invincible", you just are very good, and FREQUENTLY fight against merely "average" opponents. This is what is SUPPOSED to happen when a really good player fights average-to-bad players. By Design!!! I agree that most people I come up against seem to just not understand the objectives, or have no idea how to complete the objectives. I can't wait for rated cross-server queueing so my guild and I can get some competition. We're all getting a bit bored with how easy the other teams on our server are to beat. Just a couple nights ago we were saying how nice it would be to get completely stomped by a good team so we can be humbled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaodon Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 As I sage, I know I have no chance against an equivalently skilled IO or assassin, but you know what ... I'm okay with that. Me E-peen does not shrink and I shrug it off. On my scoundrel I destroy almost every class in 1v1 ... I'm also okay with that. The game isn't balanced for 1v1 game play and it's okay. My premade does not leave sages guarding alderaan nodes or having scoundrels run huttballs. Most people that whine don't know their intended roll and want the one class that could do everything. In essence the people whining are the ones striving for imbalance ... ironic huh. My advice to you for Sage vs Operatives: they have no gap closer. My advice to you for assassins: they have no (real) healing ability. I can beat both on my Sage (and of course, I get beaten, too). But its never a "no-win" for me, I definitely can take them if I play right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinlynn Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) For the most part I agree. However, I don't see any changes in 1.2 that seem out of line either. Except maybe the buff to SW/JK. Also, too many times I have run across players that hack to win. Either speed hacking or using the "Can't See Target" hack. Especially in WZs. The dancing to avoid damage was a real treaat too. Until BW address the exploiting / hacking, this game is not going anywhere significant. Edited March 28, 2012 by Quinlynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) My advice to you for Sage vs Operatives: they have no gap closer. My advice to you for assassins: they have no (real) healing ability. I can beat both on my Sage (and of course, I get beaten, too). But its never a "no-win" for me, I definitely can take them if I play right. Yes I can kill bad assassins and operatives all day long myself on my sage, hence the equivalently skilled part in my post. I'm not saying it's a 'no-win', because undergeared and underskilled people will always exist ... but again I'm okay with it. Also Operatives don't need a gap closer when they're basic attack is 30m, has no cast time. Also 31 darkness assassins have enough healing to offset part of your damage. But that's beside the point ... I'm okay with burst killers killing things quickly because that's their role in group pvp. That was my point. Also I should not say we are a free kill for equivalent geared/skilled people, as when I'm healing spec/hybrid healing the fight becomes much more fair and I can win by attrition. Edited March 28, 2012 by Orangerascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slackfumasta Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 When I PvP, I can beat, and get beaten by, any class in the entire game, while playing any class in the entire game. There is no, single class which is OP, or can beat me 100% of the time, or even the majority of the time, nor is there a class I can beat 100% or the majority of the time. Every fight I engage in is either an "opportunistic fight" (i.e. they get jump on me or I get jump on them), or the extremely rare "straight up 1v1". In both cases, opportunistic or 1v1, I can win or lose based on whether I play better than them, or they play better than me, REGARDLESS of what class I'm on, or what class they are on. I have never, ever, ever encountered an OP class in SWTOR, since open beta, not even pre-nerf Scoundrel/Operatives with buff stacking. Anyone who claims that a class is OP (even tracer-missile spamming, pre-1.2 nerf) is simply a bad player. Period. Be a commando. Kill an equally geared healer. GO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaodon Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Be a commando. Kill an equally geared healer. GO! Been there, done that. Next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKfourtyseven Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I generally agree with this thread, but i do feel there are a few match-up which are pretty one sided. On my Jugg i feel like i can make mistakes and still have a better than 50/50 chance against a Sage/Sorc, Merc or Op who doesnt use double HS opener. While on my Sorc i feel i have no chance in a 1v1 against a Marauder unless they suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaodon Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 I generally agree with this thread, but i do feel there are a few match-up which are pretty one sided. On my Jugg i feel like i can make mistakes and still have a better than 50/50 chance against a Sage/Sorc, Merc or Op who doesnt use double HS opener. While on my Sorc i feel i have no chance in a 1v1 against a Marauder unless they suck. Marauders are easy to beat on a sage. 1. Bubble. 2. Force Speed to a team mate. Very easy to beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slackfumasta Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Been there, done that. Next. Perhaps I should specify that the healer can't be AFK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deridia Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 This is the truth about PVP, but it's the one nobody wants to realistically admit. Yes and no - there are classes when in the hands of a well played person have a much higher success rate. I do agree though, that in general, on equal skill footing, any class can beat any class. The problem arises when people seem "OP" when a good player gets ahold of a character that can benefit from being played by someone who serious talent. Tank-sins come to mind. The problem is, you can't nerf them because of the skilled players otherwise the class is useless to 95% of the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaodon Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Perhaps I should specify that the healer can't be AFK. I can beat healers very easily. In fact, I don't even have to use complex rotations of skills. I just type "focus (name of healer)" in my ops channel, and they die. Very easy to 1v1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slackfumasta Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I can beat healers very easily. In fact, I don't even have to use complex rotations of skills. I just type "focus (name of healer)" in my ops channel, and they die. Very easy to 1v1. Ah, so you're a troll then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Marauders are easy to beat on a sage. 1. Bubble. 2. Force Speed to a team mate. Very easy to beat. I'm pretty sure you don't need 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaodon Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Ah, so you're a troll then. No, I just don't suck like most players who think "1v1" means "1v1". I'm good enough to know "1v1" means "hey, look, a tough class for me. My team mate is right over there. *runs to them, enemy following like an idiot* 2v1. Win." If you *don't* play like this, then you are the kind of whiny baby that comes to the forums and QQs about "1v1" in a team-based PvP game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKfourtyseven Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I'm pretty sure you don't need 2. Did you not read the caveat that the marauder didnt suck? Damn straight you need 2 because any decently played and geared marauder is going to eat that bubble in double-quick time. 1v1 against a proper marauder is sorc/sages worst nightmare, that class is the epitome of a hard counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaodon Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Did you not read the caveat that the marauder didnt suck? Damn straight you need 2 because any decently played and geared marauder is going to eat that bubble in double-quick time. 1v1 against a proper marauder is sorc/sages worst nightmare, that class is the epitome of a hard counter. Exactly. I think most people think of "1v1" as "1v1 and it has to stay 1v1 because otherwise I suck". Bull. The skill of the player lays in their ability to think both tactically and strategically to beat opponents. If you are "1v1" against someone who has an advantage over you, standing there and dying does not make you good, NOR does it make them "Overpowered". It just means you're stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee-Jay Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 The OP clearly doesn't spend much time chasing boxes in Ilum or he plays a Shadow/Assassin or Sentinel/Marauder. Playing one of those two classes I too would consider PvP fairly well balanced. Perspective is everything in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Did you not read the caveat that the marauder didnt suck? Damn straight you need 2 because any decently played and geared marauder is going to eat that bubble in double-quick time. 1v1 against a proper marauder is sorc/sages worst nightmare, that class is the epitome of a hard counter. It must be the marauders on my server then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruuprect Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Marauders are easy to beat on a sage. 1. Bubble. 2. Force Speed to a team mate. Very easy to beat. This only works against bad Maras. Any good mara will root you immediately and then root you again and again. If you w8 until the first root wears off and then froce speed they have you down to 50% health before you can run away. Maras are tuff speaking from a seer spec sage POV. I will never kill a good one, and rarly can I live long aginst one. But that is the point maras are sage killers, that is thier roll. Most of thier tools are a perfect counter to ours. Overall I agree with your OP, I think the game was pretty well balanced and did not need nerfs or buffs. It just needed some bug fixes to some class mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaodon Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 The OP clearly doesn't spend much time chasing boxes in Ilum or he plays a Shadow/Assassin or Sentinel/Marauder. Playing one of those two classes I too would consider PvP fairly well balanced. Perspective is everything in PvP. What is this "Ilum" you speak of? Is it a new Warzone? /sarcasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaodon Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 This only works against bad Maras. Any good mara will root you immediately and then root you again and again. If you w8 until the first root wears off and then froce speed they have you down to 50% health before you can run away. Maras are tuff speaking from a seer spec sage POV. I will never kill a good one, and rarly can I live long aginst one. But that is the point maras are sage killers, that is thier roll. Most of thier tools are a perfect counter to ours. Overall I agree with your OP, I think the game was pretty well balanced and did not need nerfs or buffs. It just needed some bug fixes to some class mechanics. Well, I was simplifying. In reality, you Stun the marauder, and when they CC break, you instant-Force Lift, THEN you run *while* bubbling. (And there is nothing a Marauder can do about that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruuprect Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Well, I was simplifying. In reality, you Stun the marauder, and when they CC break, you instant-Force Lift, THEN you run *while* bubbling. (And there is nothing a Marauder can do about that). Agreed, I am speaking from a heal perspective so I dont have an instant lift. I hate maras because there are always 1-2 of them assigned to me in every WZ and they are by far the best at hassling me. They kill me really quick, and rightly so, they are serving thier purpose. I just get frustrated with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaodon Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Agreed, I am speaking from a heal perspective so I dont have an instant lift. I hate maras because there are always 1-2 of them assigned to me in every WZ and they are by far the best at hassling me. They kill me really quick, and rightly so, they are serving thier purpose. I just get frustrated with them. Well, its not easy to stay alive 1v2. If 1 Mara is on you, I expect you to be able to live and negate most of what he is doing. The downside, of course, is that he is still "winning" by keeping you occupied instead of healing your team. But, you shouldn't die to just 1. But that's true of anyone - 1v2 is usually a death, unless the 2 are horribad, undergeared, or both. Its why I say that anyone can win any 1v1 match up. All you have to do, is run to a team mate and turn it into a 2v1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sauerkraut Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 When I PvP, I can beat, and get beaten by, any class in the entire game, while playing any class in the entire game. There is no, single class which is OP, or can beat me 100% of the time, or even the majority of the time, nor is there a class I can beat 100% or the majority of the time. Every fight I engage in is either an "opportunistic fight" (i.e. they get jump on me or I get jump on them), or the extremely rare "straight up 1v1". In both cases, opportunistic or 1v1, I can win or lose based on whether I play better than them, or they play better than me, REGARDLESS of what class I'm on, or what class they are on. I have never, ever, ever encountered an OP class in SWTOR, since open beta, not even pre-nerf Scoundrel/Operatives with buff stacking. Anyone who claims that a class is OP (even tracer-missile spamming, pre-1.2 nerf) is simply a bad player. Period. PvP is not fair fight dueling. In WZ there are OP classes. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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