Rage Jugg in 1.2? Nerfed or Buffed those that have played the PTR

[Lrdprimus]

Obviously you can see a point in both directions but what is it?

 

Buff

 

Nerf

 

Same

Edited March 26, 2012 by Lrdprimus

[Goretzu]

Obviously you can see a point in both directions but what is it?

 

Buff

 

Nerf

 

Same

 

 

 

You decide.

[WarSiren]

You decide.

 

He even said he didn't actually test any of the changes and his entire post is all hearsay and Theory crafting.

 

Stop posting that til there is hard testing evidence.

Edited March 26, 2012 by WarSiren

[VainEldritch]

He even said he didn't actually test any of the changes and his entire post is all hearsay and Theory crafting.

 

Stop posting that til there is hard testing evidence.

 

^This.

 

I'm waiting eagerly to see actual hard numbers from a tester - though from what I've seen of the "parser project" (well done guys!) we may have to wait a little while yet.

[wickedUOF]

I don't think I used smash on cool down every single time it is off cooldown. I think the new shockwave from Enrage is better than the loss of force alacrity.

 

I am eager to see or hear more about the self healing as well.

[bananaface]

nerf

 

vicious slash does **** all dmg compared to force scream and the chance on rage regen is non excistant and you need more acc for vicious slash cause it's not a force attack.

[Goretzu]

He even said he didn't actually test any of the changes and his entire post is all hearsay and Theory crafting.

 

Stop posting that til there is hard testing evidence.

 

 

 

As I've said before, that will be when it goes Live, by which point it will be far too late.

 

By the time it goes Live even if it nerfed damage by 50% (it won't, but just using an extreme example), Juggs will have to wait months for any further corrections.

 

And I missed the part where you got to tell me what to do, did I marry you and not realise it?

 

 

 

Besides which it simply cannot be a buff, there's simply no way you can be doing more damage in 1.2 than you are now, unless their patch notes are wrong, it's just a case of how much it's nerfed.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Goretzu

[lordofdamornin]

As I've said before, that will be when it goes Live, by which point it will be far too late.

 

By the time it goes Live even if it nerfed damage by 50% (it won't, but just using an extreme example), Juggs will have to wait months for any further corrections.

 

And I missed the part where you got to tell me what to do, did I marry you and not realise it?

 

 

 

Besides which it simply cannot be a buff, there's simply no way you can be doing more damage in 1.2 than you are now, unless their patch notes are wrong, it's just a case of how much it's nerfed.

 

If any class gets broken (read: proven underperformer) with the patch, they will fix it, and it won't be months later, either. No one wants to play a broken class, and Bioware doesn't want to have any in its game. Period. I believe I have said this to you before, Goretzu, but in case I didn't;

 

Class balance is in everyone's best interest, including Bioware's. They are very careful about tinkering under the hood, and they do so in a deliberate fashion, with deliberate intentions. Mistakes happen, and mistakes involving class balance are fixed rather quickly.

 

Have we been nerfed in the first 20 seconds of any given encounter? Looks like it, but not a by a lot.

 

Have we been nerfed over time? Again, not by a lot. Eventually, people will realize that.

 

According to Bioware: Juggernauts are performing within expectations in terms of dps, both burst and sustained.

 

According to the Community: Juggernaut dps is (one of) the worst in the game.

 

Since Bioware doesn't know what they are doing, and since the Community is always right, and always knows what is best...it is therefore impossible that we have been meaningfully nerfed. Right?

 

Nerfs come and go, and class balance shifts subtly over time. In case you are new to MMO's, it's just the nature of the beast.

 

We have not been meaningfully nerfed (sans Crash), we are competitive now, and will continue to be competitive after 1.2.

 

Let me rephrase that last - I will be. I can't answer as to whether or not you will be.

 

Riôt

[Goretzu]

If any class gets broken (read: proven underperformer) with the patch, they will fix it, and it won't be months later, either. No one wants to play a broken class, and Bioware doesn't want to have any in its game. Period. I believe I have said this to you before, Goretzu, but in case I didn't;

 

No one is saying Juggs will be broken by 1.2, just like no one is saying the sun will explode tommorrow.

 

But just because the sun won't explode tomorrow (or at least most likely won't ) that doesn't mean Juggs will be well balanced in 1.2.

 

Not being broken doesn't mean you're balanced either.

 

 

Class balance is in everyone's best interest, including Bioware's. They are very careful about tinkering under the hood, and they do so in a deliberate fashion, with deliberate intentions. Mistakes happen, and mistakes involving class balance are fixed rather quickly.

 

Have we been nerfed in the first 20 seconds of any given encounter? Looks like it, but not a by a lot.

 

Have we been nerfed over time? Again, not by a lot. Eventually, people will realize that.

 

So you're saying Rage Juggs have been nerfed in burst and sustained DPS - I completely agree.

 

The issue is that compared to Marauders Jugg surviablity and utility is poor (Jugg utility has also been nerfed in 1.2 of course).

 

 

According to Bioware: Juggernauts are performing within expectations in terms of dps, both burst and sustained.

 

They said this in January (along with that surviability and mobility wasn't where they wanted it), and then in 1.2 they nerf it.

 

 

According to the Community: Juggernaut dps is (one of) the worst in the game.

 

Since Bioware doesn't know what they are doing, and since the Community is always right, and always knows what is best...it is therefore impossible that we have been meaningfully nerfed. Right?

 

Wrong.

 

Nerfs come and go, and class balance shifts subtly over time. In case you are new to MMO's, it's just the nature of the beast.

 

We have not been meaningfully nerfed (sans Crash), we are competitive now, and will continue to be competitive after 1.2.

 

Let me rephrase that last - I will be. I can't answer as to whether or not you will be.

 

Riôt

 

Nerfs come and go, that doesn't mean you should agree with them or accept them passively (well you can if you want, of course, if passivity is your wish).

 

Look at the monk nerf way back in EQ1, it was wrong, the players told them it was wrong and demonstrated it mathmatically, it went ahead anyway...... 1.5 years later the Devs admitted they were wrong and changed it back..... the problem was that for 1.5 years EQ1 monks were playing with subpar mitigation for no reason.

 

Now if they'd done the other things they'd promised then 1.2 would be different.

 

But unfortunately there's no real buffs (certainly for Rage), but there's a lot of direct and indirect nerfs.

 

So however you wish to define "competative" you'll be less competative (with Rage) in 1.2 than you are now, you can passively accept that if you want, and you can passively accept that I won't too.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Goretzu

[Elyx]

You decide.

 

THAT is a PvP discussion. I certainly support my PvP bretheren in their concerns, but plz stop posting that as some giant nerf for the "class" in general. PvP certainly is affected, but PvE is not.

 

Again, PvP is only part of the game. please don't misrepresent the issue, your only hurting your stance.

[Schwarzwald]

I do on average 500-600k damage a game as rage in its current state if I have a healer, 400k if I am solo queueing.

 

It needs a nerf when I can kill people who are wearing near full champs in 3-4 globals with WZ adrenals and relics popped.

 

The upcoming 'nerfs' to rage is just redistributing the sources of damage that Rage does. Currently its probably one of the most unmitigated builds in the game and my average smash crits range from 4.8k to 5.4k. Low end smash crits are like 3.8k at the lowest and my highest yet is a 7.2k crit. Force scream crits range from 3.2-5.2k crits (yes, 5.2K force scream crits)

 

Good players will be uneffected by the rage 'nerf' with the swap out of Force alacrity to the vicious slash.

 

Good players are not going to complain too much about it because they understand that it is a pretty efficient use of Rage to spend in between cooldowns.

 

Good players realize that this change will also make Crit on your gear more useful then it was previously, because now it will directly effect how much rage you conserve during a vicious slash spam fest.

 

Good players realize that this change, in a way, makes hopping into Soresu more viable, since only rage generation will be hurt and not a significant chunk of your damage output.

 

 

Bad players say this is a nerf, the end of rage as a viable spec but really they are just children who don't bother to use the brains inside their heads.

 

Why is this nerf needed? Remember all that damage I do that I described above. I min max my stats, I do certain things which I am not sharing because you guys can learn that crap on your own. But what I can say, is that in 1.2 BM and WH gear will be itemized in a similar way that I do. Rage in its current form is stale and boring rotation (even though blasting newbies is pretty damn fun) and if the current form of rage was introduced into 1.2 with the new itemization, then Rage jugs would simply break the game. Seriously, a Rage jug and a good healer could probably stop a premade on their own.

 

Thats why rage is getting nerfed.

 

If you disagree with me you are probably a bad rage jug.

 

edit and people people QQ about how i'm some dick who doesn't have anything to back it up.

 

http://i.imgur.com/hHwah.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vJirp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/GUIhd.jpg

 

it goes on and on, this nearly happens every game for me.

 

It is really hard to tell if Rage is over powered, or if everyone else is bad. Wait I've got it, brains are overpowered, nerf brains please.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Schwarzwald]

 

According to the Community: Juggernaut dps is (one of) the worst in the game.

 

 

Thats because the community doesn't know what it is talking about.

 

Sometimes you just have to swallow reality and realize that 98.5% of the people who play this game have no clue what they are doing.

[lordofdamornin]

I do on average 500-600k damage a game as rage in its current state if I have a healer, 400k if I am solo queueing.

 

It needs a nerf when I can kill people who are wearing near full champs in 3-4 globals with WZ adrenals and relics popped.

 

The upcoming 'nerfs' to rage is just redistributing the sources of damage that Rage does. Currently its probably one of the most unmitigated builds in the game and my average smash crits range from 4.8k to 5.4k. Low end smash crits are like 3.8k at the lowest and my highest yet is a 7.2k crit. Force scream crits range from 3.2-5.2k crits (yes, 5.2K force scream crits)

 

Good players will be uneffected by the rage 'nerf' with the swap out of Force alacrity to the vicious slash.

 

Good players are not going to complain too much about it because they understand that it is a pretty efficient use of Rage to spend in between cooldowns.

 

Good players realize that this change will also make Crit on your gear more useful then it was previously, because now it will directly effect how much rage you conserve during a vicious slash spam fest.

 

Good players realize that this change, in a way, makes hopping into Soresu more viable, since only rage generation will be hurt and not a significant chunk of your damage output.

 

 

Bad players say this is a nerf, the end of rage as a viable spec but really they are just children who don't bother to use the brains inside their heads.

 

Why is this nerf needed? Remember all that damage I do that I described above. I min max my stats, I do certain things which I am not sharing because you guys can learn that crap on your own. But what I can say, is that in 1.2 BM and WH gear will be itemized in a similar way that I do. Rage in its current form is stale and boring rotation (even though blasting newbies is pretty damn fun) and if the current form of rage was introduced into 1.2 with the new itemization, then Rage jugs would simply break the game. Seriously, a Rage jug and a good healer could probably stop a premade on their own.

 

Thats why rage is getting nerfed.

 

If you disagree with me you are probably a bad rage jug.

 

edit and people people QQ about how i'm some dick who doesn't have anything to back it up.

 

http://i.imgur.com/hHwah.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vJirp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/GUIhd.jpg

 

it goes on and on, this nearly happens every game for me.

 

It is really hard to tell if Rage is over powered, or if everyone else is bad. Wait I've got it, brains are overpowered, nerf brains please.

 

I couldn't agree more - well said.

 

Riôt

[Lrdprimus]

to my topic above

 

has any RAGE JUGG played the PTR and confirmed any of this nerf/buff

[Dracosz]

to my topic above

 

has any RAGE JUGG played the PTR and confirmed any of this nerf/buff

 

I'd just like to say that it's insulting to insinuate that just because we don't play the spec exclusively that we lack insight into the changes. Schwarz's post is quite to the point on the issue.

 

To address your question, rage is fine on the PTR. It no longer functions completely around Smash as it does now, but it's still pretty powerful. Vicious slash is extremely important and it's no longer possible to devalue crit since you'll want to have VS for fillers.

 

The thing you guys have to realize is that there are more than just the 9 points in rage that prop up and set up the smash crits, there are 22 other talent points in the tree that are basically icing on the cake for the spec. This patch makes those other talents worth picking up and adds flair to the rage tree.

 

Numerical nerfs are always things we can function around. That's something a lot of people in this thread seem to have lost sight of. If numbers are too low, they'll be tweaked back up, it's as simple as that. If they're too high, they will go down, such is the nature of mmo development. This patch has been a boon because we were able to buck the general trend of MMO design structure in this patch by GAINING new abilities and a structural boost to a tree, that does NOT happen in most MMO's, so be glad that bioware has taken note and keep in mind that they ARE reading what we're posting here.

[kronomandar]

...

Bad players say this is a nerf, the end of rage as a viable spec but really they are just children who don't bother to use the brains inside their heads.

...

If you disagree with me you are probably a bad rage jug.

...

 

...Sometimes you just have to swallow reality and realize that 98.5% of the people who play this game have no clue what they are doing.

 

the changes might not be a nerf to you, the elitist player, but it IS a nerf to the average player (those you call bads).

 

there are far more average players subbed than there are good players. any company, bioware included, wishing to be competative in the mmo market must cater towards those average players.

 

regardless of how the proposed changes will effect you personally, they will cumulatively act as a nerf to the average player who wishes to play a rage jug.

[Schwarzwald]

the changes might not be a nerf to you, the elitist player, but it IS a nerf to the average player (those you call bads).

 

there are far more average players subbed than there are good players. any company, bioware included, wishing to be competative in the mmo market must cater towards those average players.

 

regardless of how the proposed changes will effect you personally, they will cumulatively act as a nerf to the average player who wishes to play a rage jug.

 

learn to play

 

If you want PVP to be competitive and want Ratings in Warzones to mean anything, then the game must be balanced towards the top players and gear must be equal amongst players.

 

You are not thinking about this in the right way though man. I don't mean to be harsh and I am going to be speaking broadly, because I see it all the time.

 

Players always want to suggest builds that are simply bad, don't work, or the play style simply isn't allowed with the class. You have to LEARN THE CLASS. You CANNOT IMAGINE THE CLASS TO BE SOMETHING IT ISN'T.

 

I really, really, really, loved the spec described in my signature, but I simply do not play it as much any more simply due to how fricking ridiculously powerful Rage currently (and will continue in 1.2) is. The spec still has its uses in some group situations and such, but when it comes to actually being a threat to the enemy team, this role is currently best filled in rage, and you need to play the spec properly in order do as well as I do in it.

 

This includes making the entire rage buff building rotation muscle memory, then ontop of that you also need to think all the time and be situationally aware beyond what you are currently fighting. A majority of players do neither of these.

 

tl;dr. Practice the class, don't try to imagine it to be something its not.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Lrdprimus]

My Jugg is valor 82 and ive been Rage the entire time even lvling. My server I am 1% of the juggs that know how to play the class. Most damage / top3 in protection 12 medals yada yada with premades we win about 90% of the time. Hearing all this stuff about juggs being nerfed i just dont see it. Yes I will need to change my rotation around and do a few things with better timing but there are adds as well. The execute at 30% itself is huge. Ill be stacking abit more crit just because of that. Without seeing the *NERF* on youtube or reading someone that has played iton the PTR I just dont believe that its a huge nerf to my jugg at all.

 

I only wish someone would do a youtube video woth now and PTR to really show us what we are getting into.

 

Im hoping ill be 0.3% of my server when the patch comes out so they will see how few juggs there are and give us a real buff.

 

DATA is all I want.

[Goretzu]

THAT is a PvP discussion. I certainly support my PvP bretheren in their concerns, but plz stop posting that as some giant nerf for the "class" in general. PvP certainly is affected, but PvE is not.

 

Again, PvP is only part of the game. please don't misrepresent the issue, your only hurting your stance.

 

 

 

It's a discussion of how the class mechanic are changing in 1.2, PvE and PvP.

 

 

Again there is no way it won't lower your PvE DPS output either, although burst is, of course, less important in PvE usually.

 

 

And the OP mentions nothing at all about PvE or PvP, so why do you think this is only about PvE?

Edited March 27, 2012 by Goretzu

[Goretzu]

I do on average 500-600k damage a game as rage in its current state if I have a healer, 400k if I am solo queueing.

 

 

If you've got a pocket healer and are playing against PuGs you'll get huge end of warzone "damage" amounts (me and a pally once wiped an entire enemy AV team in WoW 2.5 times over before they eventually got us (by knocking me off the bridge) - that had nothing to do with balance, it had everything to do with being in R14 gear when no one else was, knowing what we were doing and them coming in staggered like meat to a grinder).

 

This has always been true since WoW brought out Warsong Gulch.

 

If you're well geared and against badly geared and disorganised PuGs (often with bad class balance in the WZ) again you will get large numbers.

 

This is even more the case with any AoE spec (splash damage - look it up).

 

 

 

 

 

 

However these inflated damage numbers never have and never will have much do do with class balance and I don't understand why you think they do?

Edited March 27, 2012 by Goretzu

[Schwarzwald]

http://i.imgur.com/H258X.jpg

 

speak of the devil, it happened again. And this was up against and with some of the best players on the server, we capped our door with only 22 seconds remaining.

 

Are you guys really saying you want THIS to be a common thing? This damage output is just kinda ridiculous.

 

What if there were more of me in that warzone. Get ready for jug flavor of the month.

 

 

Also, please don't use pocket healers as an argument. PvP is a team effort and you should have healers with you, and when you are with a healer, Rage jugs are ridiculous.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Lrdprimus]

yes it is

 

Ive seen Inq-DPS put up 800k in just the last few days.

 

Bounty hunters can do just as much if not more with their AOE

 

I can farm Void all day on my 900self buffed PRI juggernaut its not hard.

 

You are part of the 1% club of juggs. My server im top DPS 99% of the games.

 

Find a good AOE class they will do just as much.

[Goretzu]

http://i.imgur.com/H258X.jpg

 

speak of the devil, it happened again. And this was up against and with some of the best players on the server, we capped our door with only 22 seconds remaining.

 

Are you guys really saying you want THIS to be a common thing? This damage output is just kinda ridiculous.

 

What if there were more of me in that warzone. Get ready for jug flavor of the month.

 

 

Also, please don't use pocket healers as an argument. PvP is a team effort and you should have healers with you, and when you are with a healer, Rage jugs are ridiculous.

 

 

 

The amount of damage there has much more to do with the amount of healing there (as it always does).

 

The issue in question is whether a Rage Jugg or Rage Mara will be better in 1.2, so far it's looking like Rage Mara.

 

 

 

 

Out of interest though why are you playing Rage spec if your DPS tank spec is better?

[blackdots]

I really, really, really, loved the spec described in my signature, but I simply do not play it as much any more simply due to how fricking ridiculously powerful Rage currently (and will continue in 1.2) is. The spec still has its uses in some group situations and such, but when it comes to actually being a threat to the enemy team, this role is currently best filled in rage, and you need to play the spec properly in order do as well as I do in it.

 

You used to post again and again about how rage was just "fluff" or "gimmick" damage, bashing those of us who argued that Rage was the best PvP spec. Hilarious. You also continue to insult people who argue for vengeance, even though it, too, is a perfectly good spec in PvP with its own strong points (e.g. balance of dps and ball carrier utility). Mind you, this is all the while you were arguing for a PvP build that's about as close to being objectively inferior to the builds you were criticizing as is possible for this sort of thing.

[Greeve]

I do on average 500-600k damage a game as rage in its current state if I have a healer, 400k if I am solo queueing.

 

It needs a nerf when I can kill people who are wearing near full champs in 3-4 globals with WZ adrenals and relics popped.

 

The upcoming 'nerfs' to rage is just redistributing the sources of damage that Rage does. Currently its probably one of the most unmitigated builds in the game and my average smash crits range from 4.8k to 5.4k. Low end smash crits are like 3.8k at the lowest and my highest yet is a 7.2k crit. Force scream crits range from 3.2-5.2k crits (yes, 5.2K force scream crits)

 

Good players will be uneffected by the rage 'nerf' with the swap out of Force alacrity to the vicious slash.

 

Good players are not going to complain too much about it because they understand that it is a pretty efficient use of Rage to spend in between cooldowns.

 

Good players realize that this change will also make Crit on your gear more useful then it was previously, because now it will directly effect how much rage you conserve during a vicious slash spam fest.

 

Good players realize that this change, in a way, makes hopping into Soresu more viable, since only rage generation will be hurt and not a significant chunk of your damage output.

 

 

Bad players say this is a nerf, the end of rage as a viable spec but really they are just children who don't bother to use the brains inside their heads.

 

Why is this nerf needed? Remember all that damage I do that I described above. I min max my stats, I do certain things which I am not sharing because you guys can learn that crap on your own. But what I can say, is that in 1.2 BM and WH gear will be itemized in a similar way that I do. Rage in its current form is stale and boring rotation (even though blasting newbies is pretty damn fun) and if the current form of rage was introduced into 1.2 with the new itemization, then Rage jugs would simply break the game. Seriously, a Rage jug and a good healer could probably stop a premade on their own.

 

Thats why rage is getting nerfed.

 

If you disagree with me you are probably a bad rage jug.

 

edit and people people QQ about how i'm some dick who doesn't have anything to back it up.

 

http://i.imgur.com/hHwah.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vJirp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/GUIhd.jpg

 

it goes on and on, this nearly happens every game for me.

 

It is really hard to tell if Rage is over powered, or if everyone else is bad. Wait I've got it, brains are overpowered, nerf brains please.

 

I'm not going to bag on you but you have to realize that at its current state any dps can achieve that kind of damage especially in a preform. I rarely go into any match preform. When I do it is with friends and we don't ever have a healer. IE just grouping with buds. So I usually end up dieng quite a bit. I am not a terrible player nor the best player but in the rounds I play I an always near the top in dmg metals etc and sometimes lucky to be top spot. I have noticed there are really good members of all classes that can do this kind of dmg so to say we need to nurfed because of it is just short sighted. To call people bad players because of these nurfs is short sighted as well. Especially when there are classes just down right superior at both damage and survival ability... Sometimes havin both