Coldin Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Also, it's really easy to shut down a DPS scoundrel/operative. Knockbacks, roots, grapples. Just keep pushing them around the battlefield, and they become pretty useless. Huttball is particularly bad, since 1v1s rarely ever happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosestick Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Most top ranked teams will be a mix of tanks/marauders/healers. Operative does what? One marauder for group utility, maybe 2 if a team goes nuts for stacking predation to get places fast. Pro tip: you read the patch notes wrong. Maras pvp spec got nerfed, useless spec was buffed to merely shty, and gimmicky spec is still subpart to jug. Op provides burst and better cc than a marauder. Mara has higher sustained dps, but that doesn't kill people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldin Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Operatives are the best class at killing marauders, too. I don't know. Well played marauders are pretty tough. Since they get an in-combat invis (buy them some time and surprise) and since they get an ability that makes them unkillable for a short period, they can be very rough if you don't get a stun off at the right time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzone Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Why bring a good op? Amazing spike damage that can catch enemy healers off guard. Not the solo killer they are in pugs, but as part of the assist train. Why bring most of the ops in this thread? Lawl, no reason to bring bads. Being all things equal for a guild (class skill and gear), DPS ops will be the least desired class especially if there is no selective rated wz queuing because of huttball. Small guilds may not have that luxury but large guilds, with a large resource pool of players, will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosestick Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 If you have a competent 8 man team as well I don't see why you couldn't. That's the entire theme of this thread. OPs need buffs because when they try to solo a coordinated team, it wont go well. No talk of adding to the assist train to add amazing burst. They want to rambo someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanisAquilus Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 The funny thing about this debate is that most people are agreeing that RIGHT NOW the tanksin is better than the operative in most circumstances... and there are a few people who are saying, "well hold on... operatives can be good if Xyz." But come 1.2 the tanksin is getting away scot free, and the operatives are being beaten to death with the nerf bat. People already mostly agree the tanksin is better, whats does bioware think the situation going to be like post 1.2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 That's the entire theme of this thread. OPs need buffs because when they try to solo a coordinated team, it wont go well. No talk of adding to the assist train to add amazing burst. They want to rambo someone. Other classes assist train better and do not wear tinfoil armor THIS is the whole point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosestick Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Being all things equal for a guild (class skill and gear), DPS ops will be the least desired class especially if there is no selective rated wz queuing because of huttball. Small guilds may not have that luxury but large guilds, with a large resource pool of players, will. Like I said, no point to bring bad ops that expect to rambo coordinated teams. Same could be said for dps sins, snipers, maras, and mercs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Like I said, no point to bring bad ops that expect to rambo coordinated teams. Same could be said for dps sins, snipers, maras, and mercs. They should bring op classes in line with the rest. Go play a dps operative, then after 100+games of hutball come and tell me the class is worth taking in group for 8 man wz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanisAquilus Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) That's the entire theme of this thread. OPs need buffs because when they try to solo a coordinated team, it wont go well. No talk of adding to the assist train to add amazing burst. They want to rambo someone. Hold on now. All I want is to not be unnecessarily nerfed. Theres really no reason for it, and the fact that the majority of the people in the thread agree that PRE operative nerfs, tanksin>operative, is a pretty strong case for not nerfing them I think. Edited March 25, 2012 by CanisAquilus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImSaved Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) One marauder for group utility, maybe 2 if a team goes nuts for stacking predation to get places fast. Pro tip: you read the patch notes wrong. Maras pvp spec got nerfed, useless spec was buffed to merely shty, and gimmicky spec is still subpart to jug. Op provides burst and better cc than a marauder. Mara has higher sustained dps, but that doesn't kill people. How does an Operative have better CC than a Marauder? Dirty Kick = Force Stasis, Flash Grenade = Awe. We have Tendon Blast for our 2s root, unfortunately it's at 10m range, while the Sentinel has Force Leap, which roots for the same amount of time and has 3x the range. Both classes have a 50% snare as well. Not to mention a far shorter CD on their interrupt, which destroys healers. Oh, and the only heal debuff in the game. AND the defensive CDs required to live through focus fire, which Scoundrels have zero of. There really is no comparison. Edited March 25, 2012 by ImSaved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyshar Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) I have done PvP with an Operative, and let me tell you this: I am specced for healing, and that's the only good thing about it. I've joined an ongoing warzone only to get a reply that my healing was missed. You'll only be missed if you do healing. Healing, the only thing an Operative is useful for in warzones, anything else and you're better off picking anything but an Operative. And I won't say we're the best healers either. But if you get Huttball you're going to hate the match before you get in. No matter how you build your operative, in Huttball you're not useful (and you will end up with the ball). And 90% of all Warzones are Huttball, and I know because I played both factions on the same server, it's the same on both sides. Waiting for 1.2 to make a Chiss of a different class than is currently possible. When that comes I'm keeping my operative out of PvP, unless I want to heal and the Warzone odds are more favourable to Operatives in general. Edited March 25, 2012 by Lyshar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosestick Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Other classes assist train better and do not wear tinfoil armor THIS is the whole point. Which class is better burst and cc than a good op? Sniper has him in burst, but lacks mobility. Better cc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosestick Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 They should bring op classes in line with the rest. Go play a dps operative, then after 100+games of hutball come and tell me the class is worth taking in group for 8 man wz. Op is fine depending on your playstyle. Sorry you wont be able to rambo someone with 7 others watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krytycal Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) which class is better burst and cc than a good op? Sniper has him in burst, but lacks mobility. Better cc? but maruders and assisins are better LOL!! Edited March 25, 2012 by Krytycal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanisAquilus Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) A good assassin is the answer for all the reasons already provided, (ranged stun etc) and this will be doubly so after 1.2 where operatives get nerfed and assassins do not. If you do not play an operative it is understandable that you do not understand the scope of the nerfs incoming to our class, but they are very, very significant. The backstab change in particular, not simply because 5% increaced damage is a bad trade for 33% increaced cooldown, but also because acid blade, a very significant source of our dps, can only be used on a backstab or hidden strike. An increased cooldown on backstab also radically reduces the milage we get out of our top tier ability, acid blade. Edited March 25, 2012 by CanisAquilus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ich_Bin Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Which class is better burst and cc than a good op? Sniper has him in burst, but lacks mobility. Better cc? Better burst: DPS Powertech, DPS Assassin, DPS Merc A DPS Assassin even has better CC than an Operative. Learn the classes! DPS Assassin: - stun from out of stealth opener - two mezzes - one stun 30m range - knockback Operative: - stun from out of stealth opener - one mezz - one stun melee range - 2second root (if specced) Edited March 25, 2012 by Ich_Bin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosestick Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) How does an Operative have better CC than a Marauder? Dirty Kick = Force Stasis, Flash Grenade = Awe. We have Tendon Blast for our 2s root, unfortunately it's at 10m range, while the Sentinel has Force Leap, which roots for the same amount of time and has 3x the range. Both classes have a 50% snare as well. Not to mention a far shorter CD on their interrupt, which destroys healers. Oh, and the only heal debuff in the game. AND the defensive CDs required to live through focus fire, which Scoundrels have zero of. There really is no comparison. Sleep dart vs...... Ranged snare vs melee snare Dirty kick stuns the op for the duration? Flash grenade lasts ~40% longer than awe and is ranged. Stun from stealth opener vs.... Heal debuff is purged by any non-mouthbreather heals, more classes getting it in 1.2. Immunity and vanish isn't a defensive cd? Disappear vs 99% damage reduction that leaves you open to cc/etc. This is why you fail. Edited March 25, 2012 by Moosestick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ich_Bin Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Sleep dart vs...... Ranged snare vs melee snare Dirty kick stuns the op for the duration? Flash grenade lasts ~40% longer than awe and is ranged. Heal debuff is purged by any non-mouthbreather heals, more classes getting it in 1.2. Immunity and vanish isn't a defensive cd? Disappear vs 99% damage reduction that leaves you open to cc/etc. This is why you fail. Ranged snare vs melee snare --> Gap closer vs no gap closer Flash grenade is not ranged and has a much smaller radius than Awe. If your heal debuff is so bad then you wouldn't mind if it got removed from the ability sheet, right? I also fail to see how your heal debuff gets worse only because another class gets one, too. ---> Heal debuff is one of the most useful utilites in this game. Disappear --> really funny that you even compare an Operative's Disappear to a Marauder's GODLIKE 99% damage reduction skill. And the best part is that Marauders have an in-combat stealth TOO. Marauder's have by far the best defensive cooldowns in this game while Operative's have the weakest ones. Not saying that a Marauder has better CC than an Operative, but the Marauder has far better utility and dps. Edited March 25, 2012 by Ich_Bin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImSaved Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Sleep dart vs...... Ranged snare vs melee snare Dirty kick stuns the op for the duration? Flash grenade lasts ~40% longer than awe and is ranged. Heal debuff is purged by any non-mouthbreather heals, more classes getting it in 1.2. Immunity and vanish isn't a defensive cd? Disappear vs 99% damage reduction that leaves you open to cc/etc. This is why you fail. Sleep Dart gives full resolve on first use and is absolutely useless. Force Stasis stuns for the exact same amount of time as Dirty Kick, unless the opponent uses a CC breaker, which, NEWS FLASH, breaks Dirty Kick's stun as well. Awe has no limit to the amount of enemies it can daze, Flash Grenade does, not to mention Awe's superior range. LOL at you saying these abilities have "range" by the way, 10m is basically melee range. Heal debuff is becoming unpurgeable in 1.2, reading skills ftw? And you're really using Disappearing Act as a comparison to Sentinel's CDs? lol, have fun stealthing and running away, contributing zero to your team, while a Sentinel pops CDs and continues to put out ridiculous damage while you're sitting in a corner praying for a heal. Calling someone else fail is cool until you look in the mirror and realize you are one. Edited March 25, 2012 by ImSaved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Isnt it the situation we have here? You will never be able to burst down to death someone equaly geared and a part of a coordinated team. Never. And coming back to a closing: How many seconds do your graple need to take affect after you press a botton? And then compare it with 2 mins CD which only makes u invisible and give slight movement speed increase, but you still need to WALK toward your target. And you have all chances to eat a slow or a AOE wich will break stealth and completley deny your attempt. And thats it. After youve wasted your cloaking screen for 2 mins you have nothing. You will be forsed to stay at your curret target to not loose your effectivness completely, but most likely wil be kited. I stated taht dps operatives/scoundrels are unplayable in team based pvp, because of a questions we need to answer to get place in a team: - Why do i need dps operative in my team instead of any other dps? A. ops still can stunlock someone to death. if my champ pt doesnt have his CC breaker up, i will be stunlocked to death before i can get a single attack off. this isnt a rarity, this is what USUALLY happens unless i SIGNIFICANTLY outgear the operative (no i wasnt being attacked by another player). if i do have my CC breaker up, then i start the fight at around 40% of my hp. compare this to rogue when they got shadowstep. even if you endured a 10 second stun rotation from a rogue, at most he is going to take 40% of your HP, more like 30%. the only exception to this were rogues dual wielding legendaries weapon, which there might be ONE per server because it was the top of the line content that 95% of the guilds never saw and it was a very low drop rate. B. how long it take for grapple to take affect? depends on the distance/z axis. if he is relatively close (15m) on the same level as me? 1-1.5 seconds. if he was farther (30m) and above me? more like 3 seconds. although if he is above me there is a very good chance that my grapple will NOT send him to me. grapple is completely unreliable if the target is above or below you. like your stealth, my grapple has severe limitations to its use in closing the gap. now, charge/leap do not suffer as many limations, but has fewer uses as well compared to grapple and stealth. C. ops are still the best class at ninja capping nodes in alderaan or vvoidstar if you need to do it QUICKLY. assassins would be better if your goal was to pull defenders away from another node. a coordinated assassin/op team would be nearly unstoppable as a stealth team. as for huttball, i would say that ops are the worst class at it. but if you factor how strong they are in alderaan and voidstar, it evens out. Edited March 25, 2012 by Ryotknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosestick Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Sleep Dart gives full resolve on first use and is absolutely useless. Force Stasis stuns for the exact same amount of time as Dirty Kick, unless the opponent uses a CC breaker, which, NEWS FLASH, breaks Dirty Kick's stun as well. Awe has no limit to the amount of enemies it can daze, Flash Grenade does, not to mention Awe's superior range. LOL at you saying these abilities have "range" by the way, 10m is basically melee range. Heal debuff is becoming unpurgeable in 1.2, reading skills ftw? And you're really using Disappearing Act as a comparison to Sentinel's CDs? lol, have fun stealthing and running away, contributing zero to your team, while a Sentinel pops CDs and continues to put out ridiculous damage while you're sitting in a corner praying for a heal. Calling someone else fail is cool until you look in the mirror and realize you are one. If you don't understand the usefulness of a long term mez, I can't help you. Force stasis stuns the marauder to use it, kick does not. Understanding abilities ftw. Awe is 5m around marauder. Flash is 5m from ranged target. Ditto on the reading skills. The original whiner, maybe you, used maras as only heal debuffing class in game....so we are talking about pre 1.2 Pro tip: you get focused and vanish, once they are on someone else, attack. Or don't, I doubt you will understand the basics even with an in-depth explanation. Edited March 25, 2012 by Moosestick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxkardinal Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 Which class is better burst and cc than a good op? Sniper has him in burst, but lacks mobility. Better cc? Your "goodnes' will not add extra abilities or add extra effects to your curret abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzone Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) A. ops still can stunlock someone to death. Not against a skilled player that knows how and when to counter and, trust me, ranked teams will know that and be ready for it. Once an op is countered, he's toast or will have to use Cloaking Screen to run away, especially in a team fight. If that ranked team doesn't have skilled players, it won't matter what classes they go up against period. Edited March 25, 2012 by Ozzone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxkardinal Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Not against a skilled player that knows how and when to counter and, trust me, ranked teams will know that and be ready for it. Once an op is countered, he's toast or will have to use Cloaking Screen to run away, especially in a team fight. If that ranked team doesn't have skilled players, it won't matter what classes they go up against period. Exacly! Thats the major issue with people arguing about others skills. Good teams know how to land Stealth Scanes either and know how to protect their healers from bursts. Lack of utility i was talking about reveal itself at some time after fight starts. When you will need to quicly change pressure points to froce opponents for a mistake. And operative with curret skills will not be able to answer that call. Operative deffenatly need something to jump back on target or switch targets. Or they just wont have place in high rating WZs. Are you people disagree with that? Edited March 25, 2012 by Maxkardinal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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