When dps Operatives/Scoundrels will be playeble?

[Coldin]

Honestly, the changing of talents around is fine. And it's great that we finally get a talent that increases the damage off of Sucker Punch/Flying fists. The issue is that it came at the cost -10% damage, so it's a net loss even if talented.

 

Coupled with the fact that we have no out of stealth gap closer (and even stealth can be too slow to catch a moving enemy), and no real defensive cooldown....we're just that not that great in an open fight.

 

I really feel like they could make Defensive Screen more useful. Right now the damage it absorbs is so paltry...but what if they altered it to simply reduce damage by a % over the 15 second duration. Then it could be used to really give some survivability when we need it.

[Stormbad]

It's amazing to me how people can make comparisons to another class when they've never played them to 50.

 

I have an OP, Marauder and Mercenary. There are some in this thread saying the OP is more useful than a Marauder in warzones?!? This got me to rofl. And if an OP disagrees, the OP is somehow "bad?" LOL!!!

 

I do pretty well on my OP. I pug alot and typically get 300k+ dmg and 75k+ healing in warzones (Alderaan much more). I ninja cap turrets and doors all the time and it's a fun to play, also my first class I made. My favorite targets? Other OP/Scoundrels. Why? They were the easiest class to kill, LOL!

 

I started making my Marauder using the resources from my OP and didn't really pvp much because I was doing it more for the story. When I did warzones, I was instantly aware of how much easier it was to 1. DPS, 2. Help with objectives, 3. Survive compared to my OP. Admittedly, I never tried the Carnage spec for pvp, staying with Annihilation. Once I geared him out, I payed attention to my numbers. 350k+ dmg, 50k+ healing but a lot less deaths and I contributed to objectives!!! Not only do I do better personally, I make my whole team better.

 

The saddest thing is that Camouflage works so much better than Cloaking screen and on a much shorter cooldown. I think the devs made a boo boo when deciding the cooldown on Camo on a non-stealth class vs Cloaking on a stealth-reliant class.

 

But anyways, I'm done whining about the classes I play, I wish I enjoyed the Marauder playstyle enough to justify staying but I've since unsubbed and I expire soon. I won't even troll this forum any longer.

 

Goodluck all.

[ImSaved]

It's amazing to me how people can make comparisons to another class when they've never played them to 50.

 

I have an OP, Marauder and Mercenary. There are some in this thread saying the OP is more useful than a Marauder in warzones?!? This got me to rofl. And if an OP disagrees, the OP is somehow "bad?" LOL!!!

 

I do pretty well on my OP. I pug alot and typically get 300k+ dmg and 75k+ healing in warzones (Alderaan much more). I ninja cap turrets and doors all the time and it's a fun to play, also my first class I made. My favorite targets? Other OP/Scoundrels. Why? They were the easiest class to kill, LOL!

 

I started making my Marauder using the resources from my OP and didn't really pvp much because I was doing it more for the story. When I did warzones, I was instantly aware of how much easier it was to 1. DPS, 2. Help with objectives, 3. Survive compared to my OP. Admittedly, I never tried the Carnage spec for pvp, staying with Annihilation. Once I geared him out, I payed attention to my numbers. 350k+ dmg, 50k+ healing but a lot less deaths and I contributed to objectives!!! Not only do I do better personally, I make my whole team better.

 

The saddest thing is that Camouflage works so much better than Cloaking screen and on a much shorter cooldown. I think the devs made a boo boo when deciding the cooldown on Camo on a non-stealth class vs Cloaking on a stealth-reliant class.

 

But anyways, I'm done whining about the classes I play, I wish I enjoyed the Marauder playstyle enough to justify staying but I've since unsubbed and I expire soon. I won't even troll this forum any longer.

 

Goodluck all.

 

This is so true. I would trade Disappearing Act for Force Camouflage any day of the week.

[Eminus]

powertech (grapple)

 

try again. i would have awarded some points for assassin, but they can force sprint.

 

and i noticed people are calling a potential gap closer shadowstep, meaning they are familiar with wow. in that case they should be familiar with the fact that rogues didnt get shadowstep until they went from a high burst stunlock setup to a zero burst, medium sustained, high uptime setup where their opening 10 seconds of dps didnt really matter (on their own).

 

You do know in what state rogues are in now correct?? "low burst" LOOOOL

[Ozzone]

I pug alot and typically get 300k+ dmg and 75k+ healing in warzones (Alderaan much more).

 

I doubt that especially the "typically" part. People make wild claims all the time here with no proof to back it up.

[Trauglodyte]

Better burst: DPS Powertech, DPS Assassin, DPS Merc

A DPS Assassin even has better CC than an Operative. Learn the classes!

 

DPS Assassin:

- stun from out of stealth opener

- two mezzes

- one stun 30m range

- knockback

 

Conc Operative:

- stun from out of stealth opener

- one mezz

- one stun melee range

- 2second root (if specced)

 

Leth Operative:

- one mezz

- one stun melee range

- two additional buttons to utilize to maximize damage, both of which negate the first CC mentioned

 

Fixed this for you

Edited March 25, 2012 by Trauglodyte

[Ich_Bin]

Fixed this for you

 

Yeah you're right.

 

Actually Concealment Operatives will have Vital Shot in their rotation if they want to maximize damage, too. So their mezz is useless in lots of situations just like it is for Lethality Operatives.

Assassins don't have that problem. Also their CC abilities generate less resolve.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[GrandMike]

This is more 'game expirience' thread than 'overpowered/underpowered'.

 

I have no problems with damage output, so i dont care about damage nerfs, or 'rebalance', call it whatever you want. Damage is fine IMO.

 

I have problem with 'in combat' mobilty and utility. And mostly because this class dont have both.

 

When your Cloacking Screen on CD there is no way you can get back on your target or quickly switch when you need to burst/disable specific target. Im not talking abut 1v1, im talking about cordinated team fights where are no udergeared people and where healers are under guard and where positioning is happening.

 

In pugs im ok. Even in Huttball. But IMO there is no place for a curret operative/scoundrell in 8 ppl team, simply because i dont see how this class can execute tactic moves when its in combat. Especially compearing with other applicants for dps spot.

 

'Sprint' and any variation of 'shadowstep' that what we need.

 

So my question is - is this ever going to happen? Or Operatives and Scoundrels at the moment are 'working as intended'?(I dont know why im so naive to hope to get answer from BW employees, but anyway, ill try).

 

It will not be playable in near future, dont even count on it.

 

They wont give an answer because it would embarass them to no end.

 

Prolly waiting on some PR crap, or how to twist statistics to "everything is fine" lol

[Maxkardinal]

So no public relation from BW?

 

That is so simple:

 

Yes, we are goint to do something about the class in near future

 

No, we wont do antything, because it works as intended.

[GrandMike]

So no public relation from BW?

 

That is so simple:

 

Yes, we are goint to do something about the class in near future

 

No, we wont do antything, because it works as intended.

 

They already told that its working as intended, but they are killing the class because of QQ.

 

QQ metrics FTW! rofl

Edited March 26, 2012 by GrandMike

[Maxkardinal]

They already told that its working as intended but they are killing the class because of QQ.

 

QQ metrics FTW! rofl

 

Where did they say that? I want to read myself, do you have a link?

[GrandMike]

Where did they say that? I want to read myself, do you have a link?

 

Dont have link, but it has been floating around thse forums, it was Georg that said it iirc.

[Maxkardinal]

Dont have link, but it has been floating around thse forums, it was Georg that said it iirc.

Ok, if he really did say that.

 

I just satisfied my last interest in SWTOR progect, thread could be closed.

[Howbadisbad]

Maybe Operatives will be 'that class'

 

Where they suck hard for 5 years and then get a buff and become godlike.

[Migrayn]

Thing is that a well played Operative/Scoundrel NOW (not talking after 1.2) can completely shut down most classes beside tanks even those if they are bads or you outgear your enemy.

 

You have alot of crowd control abilities which can be used as gap closers... IF you really want to get another gap-closer like sprint and or shadowstep you need to give up something in exchange.

 

Problem right now is that the tank specced shadows / sins are close to OP that's why people forget alot about this fact... a Shadow can't heal and a Shadow is a clothy .... you have medium armor and can heal yourselves...

 

Imagine the following szenario when Shadows "could" heal:

Node defending Shadow, keeps fighting to the bitter end, sprints / LoS heals back up, engages again. That'd be just crazy stupid OP

 

So operatives should give up our knockback or our speed or our pull or our RANGED stun. Ohh thats right we don't have any of that.

 

We have a 4m stun and a blind that breaks on damage. Wow we are so overpowered with CC. I don't know how anyone can get away from us.

[Reenolols]

Just hopped on my Op after taking a month break from the game. Dominated mid in huttball like usual resulting in an easy win. Went against teams with 5 fotm maras on them three times, rolled over them and laughed. Healed the ball carrier, carried and passed as necessary, completely dominated damage in every wz, 1 death max. My fellow ops&scoundrels, learn to play. Your out of combat damage is constant 2500-3800 crits, your opening burst is absurd and will kill anything. Ranked is not magically going to make everyone unkillable, and have guard on every single player. Seriously, just learn to play, I talked about huttball cause that's where everyone cries about Ops the most; you have your place. Void and ald, op has the same potential as any other class to dominate, decided only by player skill. Sorry to say, but too many bads posting on these forums.

 

After 1.2, we will be getting nothing but buffs with the amount of agreement that we're UP, while we're not when played properly. If you can't handle it now, we'll get buffs soon enough, you can stop crying.

 

With the nerfs to healing, Op having the best burst ingame will be even more powerful. The 3s backstab increase is unnecessary, but it won't change anything in my post.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Reenolols

[Ich_Bin]

With the nerfs to healing, Op having the best burst ingame will be even more powerful. The 3s backstab increase is unnecessary, but it won't change anything in my post.

 

Ops don't have the best burst ingame anymore. My deception Assassin does better burst (and obviously much better sustained) damage while having worse equipment than my Operative.

But the main difference between the two is that my Assassin has great utility (taunt, aoe taunt, knockback, 30m stun, speed) and is also effective out of stealth, which is not the case with my Operative.

 

Also "controlling the mid in Huttball"? Come on.

That's like the fat kid from school saying "I am controlling the goal" when you only let him be a goalkeeper instead of playing with the skilled kids.

If controlling mid in Huttball is your priority you would be better off getting a Sniper or Merc (or Assassin or Marauder) to do the job instead of an Operative.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Trauglodyte]

Breaking down the ConcOp/Scrapper (btw, I really really hate it when people arbitrarily ***** about the Op/Scoundrel or defend the Op/Scoundrel as if everyone is Conc/Scrapper specced), it is kind of easy to see why BW is doing what they're doing.

 

- strong opener from stealth (free heavy attack if not seen)

- near 2s stun (yes, its 1.5s) on said free heavy attack from stealth

- Backstab/Backblast inserted here

- Shiv/Blaster Whip here OR Dibelitate/Dirty Kick depending

 

So, what you've got here is two free attacks that will go undefended and roughly 5.5 seconds of stun that nobody can do anything about. Even in full BM gear at a high level of health, that is a decent chunk of damage gone.

 

NOW THEN (stop trying to crucify me here cause I'm going to oppose what BW is doing), the problem is that GZ, in an interview, said that they were making changes to the ConcOp/Scrapper because people didn't like not being able to attack back. I agree with that whole heartedly, though I find it funny that he says that when there is as much CC in the game as there with a Resolve system that isn't exactly keeping this situation from happening, but I digress. The problem is this:

 

• They've purposely designed the class to start out with a CC chain and yet are nerfing damage because of the CC chain

 

So, now they're nerfing the standard DPS ability (Shiv/Blaster Whip) by way of reducing the talent associated with it, boosting the damage of the positional while nerfing the dps by increasing the cool down, heavily nerfing the 31 point talent in the Conc/Scrapper tree due to the increased cool down on Back Stab/Blast, and doing nothing to enhance the frailty of the class.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't want to have to rely on Cloaking Screen. I don't want to have to run slower then everyone else JUST so that I can open up as the class was designed. Why is it that the Marauder/Sentinel play like the Op/Scrapper SHOULD play and yet we're continuing to get hammered because people don't like the end result of how the clas was designed? How about you rethink the design and stop the endless chain of nerfs that will continue to happen?

[CaptainInsano]

Just hopped on my Op after taking a month break from the game. Dominated mid in huttball like usual resulting in an easy win. Went against teams with 5 fotm maras on them three times, rolled over them and laughed. Healed the ball carrier, carried and passed as necessary, completely dominated damage in every wz, 1 death max. My fellow ops&scoundrels, learn to play. Your out of combat damage is constant 2500-3800 crits, your opening burst is absurd and will kill anything. Ranked is not magically going to make everyone unkillable, and have guard on every single player. Seriously, just learn to play, I talked about huttball cause that's where everyone cries about Ops the most; you have your place. Void and ald, op has the same potential as any other class to dominate, decided only by player skill. Sorry to say, but too many bads posting on these forums.

 

After 1.2, we will be getting nothing but buffs with the amount of agreement that we're UP, while we're not when played properly. If you can't handle it now, we'll get buffs soon enough, you can stop crying.

 

With the nerfs to healing, Op having the best burst ingame will be even more powerful. The 3s backstab increase is unnecessary, but it won't change anything in my post.

 

So you stomped a PUG in Huttball who probably had bad gear and lacked tanks/healers. I used to do this daily, its not a big deal. Of course I made liberal use of the triple Hidden Strike bug (Hidden Strike-Vanish-Hidden Strike will often hit 3 times) to completely obliterate Sages, but that's irrelevant for skilled group vs group. The problem is how bad Operatives are in competitive groups. It's easy to compare them to Assassins, who have the same class concept going on but do everything an Operative is supposed to do better. Outside of the HS bug, Assassins have the same burst plus better survivability and heaps more utility. Their energy system is also much better because it lets them stay in the fight longer. You have to weave in pathetically low DPS rifle shots to stay in a viable energy range for drawn out group fights as an Operative, and at that point you negate your burst advantage. The increased cooldown on Backstab after 1.2 is only going to make this problem worse. The fact of the matter is, DPS Operatives don't bring anything unique to the table for group PvP. Group stealth is a huge bust and needs to be replaced with something useful ASAP. I can pretty much guarantee you DPS Operatives will be the least played class in ranked WZ for good reason.

 

Also, healing isn't getting nerfed at all. Look put the expertise changes.

[me_unknown]

I can pretty much guarantee you DPS Operatives will be the least played class in ranked WZ for good reason.

 

i'll bet it will be dd sages/sorcs.

[Ozzone]

After 1.2, we will be getting nothing but buffs with the amount of agreement that we're UP, while we're not when played properly. If you can't handle it now, we'll get buffs soon enough, you can stop crying.

 

Nothing but buffs? Let's examine the 1.2 patch notes again (as they stand now). I am going to focus on the Concealment spec and not the Medicine spec (for healers) or Lethality (that almost no one plays). I've already done this once but it's obvious that I have to do it again.

 

Backstab now has a 12-second cooldown and deals approximately 5% more damage.

 

A lot of back and forth going on if this is a nerf or a buff. Depends on how you play. It would be considered a buff if you don't have time to use it twice and the increase in the CD makes that more obvious now. It would be considered a nerf in a little longer fight since the odds are you aren't going to be alive, or still fighting, 12 secs to use it again.

 

Let me put it this way, I would rather leave it the way it is now.

 

Hidden Strike now has a 7.5-second cooldown.

 

A nerf. TBH here, I consider this an almost irrelevant nerf since I rarely ever need HS immediately after using it once.

 

Now to the skill tree specific changes.

 

Concealment

 

Culling has been redesigned and is now a 2-point skill. It no longer increases damage dealt to poisoned targets, but increases the Energy gained by Stim Boost and the damage dealt by Laceration and Collateral Strike.

 

I see this as a potential nerf. As a burst damage DPS, I would rather have the damage than an energy gain. Energy is not a problem in a short fight. However, without knowing the increase in damage with Laceration and Collateral Strike, it could be a buff. A 10% increase would be substantial, a 1% increase is a joke. Why don't they show the actual increase %?

 

Again, I will be honest, whether this is a buff or nerf is yet to be determined. Time will tell. Also, this only helps bad players that don't know how to use energy management. They also don't say how much the stim boost increase is.

 

Inclement Conditioning is now a 2-point skill.

 

A probable nerf. It is now a 3-point skill unless they change the amount per point. Would need to see the difference on the PTS to know. If there is no change in the amount per point, it is a nerf.

 

Flanking is a new 1-point skill located in Tier 3 of the skill tree. It reduces the Energy cost of Backstab by 5.

 

Again, reducing energy cost is not a buff for a burst damage class. It would only be a buff if energy management was an issue which it usually isn't since out of stealth operatives don't live long without guard or a healer or are bad players that don't keep their energy up and forget about using Adrenaline Probe and/or Stim Boost.

 

Laceration now costs 10 Energy (down from 15) and deals approximately 10% less damage.

This appears to be a major nerf. 10% less damage on one of the main rotation damage abilities? Again, energy management is only an issue for unskilled players. However, if the increase in damage from the Culling change is close, then it's not a nerf. Remember, damage is key here and total damage for that one ability has to be measured by the change in Culling vs. the change with Laceration itself.

 

Meticulously Kept Blades no longer increases Energy gained by Stim Boost. This effect is now part of Culling.

 

Another possible nerf depending on the impact from the Culling increase vs. the Laceration decrease.

 

Waylay now increases the damage dealt by Backstab. It is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree and requires Flanking.

 

A buff depending on how much the increase is. Note, however, that Waylay requires Flanking (see above comment) so you have to put a point in Flanking to use this and it was moved up from Tier 3 to Tier 5 (which means almost nothing if you are spec'ing all the way up the Concealment tree which most DPS do.) Hybrids might have a problem though.

 

The bottom line is your statement that it's nothing but buffs is wrong, period.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ozzone

[Reenolols]

I said after 1.2. I know what 1.2 notes say.

[hulkweazel]

After 1.2, we will be getting nothing but buffs with the amount of agreement that we're UP, while we're not when played properly. If you can't handle it now, we'll get buffs soon enough, you can stop crying.

This speculation is based on what? Concealment Ops have yet to get a buff, and have been nerfed nearly every patch. When asked about people not wanting to take Ops for Raids/rateds, his answer is "Ops are within 5% of Marauders DPS", while completely ignoring the question of the utility that they provide.

 

Also, considering it's taking them five months to even fix Medicine, does that mean Concealment Ops, if they are really expecting a buff, to wait another five months?

[Izola]

Shadow Infil is a burst class...Although not as much as a scoundrel it's DPS in short 10 sec windows is about 90% of a scoundrels.

 

Shadow utility = Sprint, Knockback, 30m Stunlock, 1.5 Min trinket, 15m slow, 15m int & LOL 30m Force lift!

 

Scoundrel utility = Flashbang

 

Um...REALLY!

 

 

All I can say is thank GOD I picked shadow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Celebrus]

Shadow Infil is a burst class...Although not as much as a scoundrel it's DPS in short 10 sec windows is about 90% of a scoundrels.

 

Shadow utility = Sprint, Knockback, 30m Stunlock, 1.5 Min trinket, 15m slow, 15m int & LOL 30m Force lift!

 

Scoundrel utility = Flashbang

 

Um...REALLY!

 

 

All I can say is thank GOD I picked shadow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

All I can say is that ops/scoundrels are some of the whiniest *****es I have ever seen in a MMO.

 

They take the cake over druids in WoW, without a doubt.

 

Do you know how snipers beat ops/scoudrels? Well, unless they are at the top of the hutt ball arena and can simply knock you to the bottom, they don't.

 

Sniper/GS is one of a few ACs that ops/scoundrel are COMPLETELY CLASS CARRIED to victory over. If you can't beat a sniper/gs 99% of the time as a scoundrel/op, you're terrible, basically anything in medium armor or lighter is fair game for you other than TANK sins/shadows specifically.

 

You can completely lock down a player of certain classes for an entire game, wrecking them routinely everytime they step out of the respawn room, if that isn't enough for you AS A STEALTH DPS CLASS, then you're pretty much *****y and asking for too much.

 

TL;DR Ops/Scoundrels will ***** and moan until they are 5k critting people 3 times in a stunlock like they were at release, there is no pleasing these people.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Celebrus