Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) In particular the Karen Traviss level of ignorance Drew Karpyshyn treated the Exile and Revan with. I will first warn that obviously, there are many spoilers contained in this thread about the Revan novel and the over all ending to SW:TOR as well, so stop here if you don't want to know. And secondly I will warn that this is a very long post. When I first heard about the Exile being a character in the 'Revan' novel, I was at first excited, I may gain closure to my favourite character. When I actually read 'Revan', I was horrified, Karpyshyn had purposefully ignored the entire of Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, and made the Exile into somebody called Meetra Surik, now the name I am fine with, what I am not okay with is how he dumbed down Meetra Surik to seem an insignificant character in the shadow of his personal creation and baby, Revan. He displayed nothing of her power in the novel, what he did do, is made her into some Revanite fangirl that seemed to be in love with him, mixed with the power of a Padawan, which altogether butchers the person she was meant to have turned into by the end of KotOR II, a Jedi Master that had saved the Republic and rebuilt the Jedi Order through her disciples. When it got to the Darth Nyriss section of the book where they free Revan, I was very disappointed, Karpyshyn had clearly attempted to make a weak Revan more powerful than both Lord Scourge, a master of Lightsaber combat and clearly the best Sith Warrior the empire had at that time and Meetra Surik, who was meant to be a great hero of the Mandalorian Wars, the saviour of the Jedi and Republic and a Master Jedi, combined. Did Revan really need to be praised through the roof even more? well this is Karpyshyn's baby so who is surprised? What annoys me even more about this is the fact he built up the Revan character just so he can make the Sith Emperor seem even more powerful than Revan and hence make him out to be the Sidious of TOR. But it gets better, Drew's reasoning for killing off Surik in the most 'Hey Avellone, take your game and character and shove it up your ###' way was that she was a sacrifice needed because Scourge had a vision of another Jedi (the Jedi Knight class) killing the Emperor and yay the galaxy gets saved! oh wait, that was just the voice of the Emperor, so her death meant nothing in the long run except as a way to stick Revan in TOR as a KotOR cashcow to up Sub numbers. Drew, you butchered a character, butchered an entire game, and all just so you could make the Emperor of this game, your new baby, seem even more OP and ridiculous than your first baby, Revan. I am glad you have retired from writing for BioWare and hopefully Star Wars, because you pulled a Traviss and made my favourite character nothing, just so you could wear your Revanite costume again, and then overshadow another game with your baby. If you had actually learned the history of the Exile, and who she was, instead of reading the very first part of her Wookieepedia page and spent more time on writing the novel, this could have been well done. Now I will move on to why I think you butchered your own character as well. Now I like the Revan character, I really do, just not this over-hyped and over-rated character you attempted to make him into. Revan was a great Republic War Hero, he single-handedly united the Republic under the Revanchist banner and led them on a path to total victory. Then he turned to the Dark Side through the necessity of making the Republic stronger under his own new Empire, so they could defend against the inevitable attack of the True Sith waiting in the Unknown Regions, eventually he gets betrayed by Malak, and is redeemed by the Jedi, and leads them to victory again saving the Republic from another threat. But he starts to remember this Empire in waiting and attempts to find out what happened. That was the Revan I loved and we knew of before your novel. Now Revan saved the republic from the Mandalorians, exactly what the Emperor wanted, got mind-controlled by the Emperor into becoming Sith and attacking the Republic he had just saved, another part of the Emperor's plan, then when he made his glorious crusade into Sith space again, he just gets captured and nothing happens, fast-forward to Surik saving him and he turns into what a Wrestling fan would call a Jobber, and puts over the Emperor at his own expense as a character. So all in all, what we thought was a great hero and villain character turns out to be a complete tool just so you can make every KotOR fan play this game just to find not only was our favourite Republic hero a tool and puppet to this badly written Sidious rip-off, but he was completely bat#### insane and wants to commit genocide on 98.5% of the Empire's people. All of that, two great characters destroyed, just for a promotion of this game and it's badly-written main villain. Really Karpyshyn? that is the legacy you want to leave behind for the KotOR series and fans? Thanks for nothing. Some of you will flame me for this, some of you will praise me for this and the rest will say TL;DR. But that is just my opinion on how Karpyshyn turned two great icons and two great games into an abortion of a promo segment for SW:TOR and Sidious 2.0. Edited April 19, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonSM Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) I agree. Vitate.... was too much. I do however have a question... Will Revan Return? Yeah we saw him disapear in the foundry and what not. And Drew said he would return, BUT Drew is no longer working at BW... Don't create a GOD Character. Let the Movie Characters be the Elites and Champions and let EU characters not match their power! Abeloth is a damn Joke! Edited March 25, 2012 by BrandonSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Will Revan Return? Yeah we saw him disapear in the foundry and what not. And Drew said he would return, BUT Drew is no longer working at BW... I sure as hell hope not, this is a game about our characters, not the character we played in another game, do not over-shadow this game with Revan, like they did to KotOR II. Don't create a GOD Character. Let the Movie Characters be the Elites and Champions and let EU characters not match their power! Abeloth is a damn Joke! Characters don't need that much power to be good characters, in-fact the opposite is usually the best solution. Abeloth is a damn Joke! Lol apparently Star Wars has it's own Reaper, Abeloth. Edited April 19, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonSM Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Characters don't need that much power to be good characters, in-fact the opposite is usually the best solution. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Praise the Force that Drew doesn't work for BioWare anymore. Now if they could just get someone to fix the Jedi Knight story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Praise the Force that Drew doesn't work for BioWare anymore. Now if they could just get someone to retcon 'Revan' (Will never happen), fix the Jedi Knight story and finish the Revan character off. Fixed. Edited April 19, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikModi Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 The novel was fine. I loved the characterization of Meetra, she felt very authentic to me. And wrapping up the Revan/Meetra/Bastilla story was done very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Fixed. Honestly, I think Drew leaving the ending to The Foundry open is completely redundant, I believe he's dead. I don't think the rest of BioWare is as enamored with the character as Drew was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) The novel was fine. I loved the characterization of Meetra, she felt very authentic to me. And wrapping up the Revan/Meetra/Bastilla story was done very well. Meetra Surik was not the Exile we saw at the end of KotOR II, not by a long shot, at least as the canonical playthrough describes. Edited April 19, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Honestly, I think Drew leaving the ending to The Foundry open is completely redundant, I believe he's dead. I don't think the rest of BioWare is as enamored with the character as Drew was. Hopefully so, he should have gave Revan and Meetra a simple Hero's last stand against the Emperor instead of such undignified endings, Mara-Jade and Jaina Solo all over again where Meetra is concerned, IMO. Edited April 19, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Hopefully so, he should have gave Revan and Meetra a simple Hero's last stand against the Emperor instead of such undignified endings, Mara-Jade and Jaina Solo all over again where Meetra is concerned, IMO. Star Wars authors to seem to hate themselves some heroines, don't they? Doubly so for Traviss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Star Wars authors to seem to hate themselves some heroines, don't they? Doubly so for Traviss. Pretty much, Satele Shan seems to be the first real, stand alone Female leader and central character that has been taken seriously as far as I remember. Edited April 19, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Pretty much, Satele Shan seems to be the first real, stand alone Female leader and central character that has been taken seriously as far as I remember. Princess Leia post movies is a really good, strong female character. She just tends to be overshadowed by her family (kids and brother). Mon Mothma is actually one of the morally strongest characters in the whole damn setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Princess Leia post movies is a really good, strong female character. She just tends to be overshadowed by her family (kids and brother). Mon Mothma is actually one of the morally strongest characters in the whole damn setting. Precisely, but I meant, Satele is the first real symbol and leader of a major organization in Star Wars, being Grand Master of the Jedi Order and a major player in star wars, not over-clouded by others, is a first to me, I always thought Mon Mothma was overshadowed by Leia, Bail and Ackbar. Edited April 19, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Precisely, but I meant, Satele is the first real symbol and leader of a major organization in Star Wars, being Grand Master of the Jedi Order and a major player in star wars, not over-clouded by others, is a first to me, I always thought Mon Mothma was overshadowed by Leia, Bail and Ackbar. Mothma takes a little bit of thought to really get just how good she was. Throughout the whole Rebellion after Bail died and she became the de-facto leader, she never wavered in her morals, she didn't stoop to the Empire's level and she always stuck to the "light". When the Rebellion became the New Republic, she just kept on at it, even after she had been poisoned (is that series still Canon?) she kept up the brave face until it just wasn't possible anymore. I do get where you're coming from with Satele though, she has the potential to do some really bad *** stuff as Grand Master. Also at the end of the Bounty Hunter story you find out that the Governor of Taris (that female Twi'lek) is elected to be the new Supreme Chancellor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Hazard Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Revan did not die . That would make no sense whatsoever , and would make taral V and maelstrom prison flashpoints completely irrelevant . The foundry there is no body he just disappears . They obviously are ploying the make a operation or flashpoint for end game in the future in which you fight alongside Revan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Revan did not die . That would make no sense whatsoever , and would make taral V and maelstrom prison flashpoints completely irrelevant . The foundry there is no body he just disappears . They obviously are ploying the make a operation or flashpoint for end game in the future in which you fight alongside Revan. Drew Karpyshyn would agree with you, but he no longer writes for BioWare, Revan is up to the mercy of other writers now. And as shown in this same thread, we all know what can happen to characters finished up by other writers. Edited April 19, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Revan did not die . That would make no sense whatsoever , and would make taral V and maelstrom prison flashpoints completely irrelevant . The foundry there is no body he just disappears . They obviously are ploying the make a operation or flashpoint for end game in the future in which you fight alongside Revan. Actually, The Foundry takes place after Taral V and Maelstrom in the timeline, so it works. And there are no bodies when one becomes one with the Force. (Yoda, Kenobi). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Hazard Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Even if drew isn't there anymore why would you just shut the door on a chance to make a whole new op or fp? Doesn't make any sense marketing wise. Also but unlike obiwan he doesn't get struck down or anything he just encases himself in a ball of energy and disappears, no cloak or mask or anything. Edited March 25, 2012 by Dark_Hazard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Even if drew isn't there anymore why would you just shut the door on a chance to make a whole new op or fp? Doesn't make any sense marketing wise. Also but unlike obiwan he doesn't get struck down or anything he just encases himself in a ball of energy and disappears, no cloak or mask or anything. If Drew gave Revan that ability to teleport he's going to get so much hate mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seisaan Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Kotor II was just Obsidian's way of trying to cash in on the popularity of Kotor anyway; its something Obsidian loves to do. Drew created the character of Revan and was one of the writers behind Kotor. As he pointed out, Obsidian never asked Drew for any input on Kotor II, Obsidian just did whatever it wanted and created this god-like character, the Exile. So, personally, Im glad he toned her down. Was just killing her off the mature reaction to what Obsidian did? No, but it is ultimately his creation to do with whatever he wants. Kinda reminds you of someone else deeply involved in Star Wars, no? Also, what did you really expect to have happen? Drew was commissioned to make this novel tie in with SWToR while still filling the gap between games. If you expected the Exile and Revan to just cut a path through the Empire and kill the Emperor, then we wouldnt have a SWToR or any new Kotor game really. You know why Drew made the Emperor so powerful? So he would be seen as an actual threat. Here is Revan and the Exile, two characters who's respective games make them out to be the best of the best, and they get beaten in three seconds flat. That isn't entirely meant to be a slap in the face to fans, its just meant to show off how powerful the Emperor and Scourge were. To make the reader actually understand the Empire is a very serious threat to the Galaxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) They probably didn't ask for any input because, when it comes down to it, Drew isn't that good of a writer. At least as far as Star Wars authors go. Edited March 25, 2012 by Aximand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonSM Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Kotor II was just Obsidian's way of trying to cash in on the popularity of Kotor anyway; its something Obsidian loves to do. Drew created the character of Revan and was one of the writers behind Kotor. As he pointed out, Obsidian never asked Drew for any input on Kotor II, Obsidian just did whatever it wanted and created this god-like character, the Exile. So, personally, Im glad he toned her down. Was just killing her off the mature reaction to what Obsidian did? No, but it is ultimately his creation to do with whatever he wants. Kinda reminds you of someone else deeply involved in Star Wars, no? Also, what did you really expect to have happen? Drew was commissioned to make this novel tie in with SWToR while still filling the gap between games. If you expected the Exile and Revan to just cut a path through the Empire and kill the Emperor, then we wouldnt have a SWToR or any new Kotor game really. You know why Drew made the Emperor so powerful? So he would be seen as an actual threat. Here is Revan and the Exile, two characters who's respective games make them out to be the best of the best, and they get beaten in three seconds flat. That isn't entirely meant to be a slap in the face to fans, its just meant to show off how powerful the Emperor and Scourge were. To make the reader actually understand the Empire is a very serious threat to the Galaxy. Give me a minute, did I miss something? How is The Exile god-like? She has about 2 abilities that are a little God-Like. Force Whirlwind and Force Enlightenment... Revan isn't god-like, Drew made him seem that way. KOTOR made him seem that way. Its the fan's that completely overrate him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seisaan Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Give me a minute, did I miss something? How is The Exile god-like? She has about 2 abilities that are a little God-Like. Force Whirlwind and Force Enlightenment... Revan isn't god-like, Drew made him seem that way. KOTOR made him seem that way. Its the fan's that completely overrate him. I never said Revan was god-like. And the Exile "canonically" slew dozens of Sith at the Trayus Academy by herself, several of whom were even Sith Lords, and, even as you point out, mastered Force Enlightenment. There's a reason why Force Enlightenment is only brought up in Kotor 2, it was Obsidian's excuse to make their character an unstoppable force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Kotor II was just Obsidian's way of trying to cash in on the popularity of Kotor anyway; its something Obsidian loves to do. Drew created the character of Revan and was one of the writers behind Kotor. As he pointed out, Obsidian never asked Drew for any input on Kotor II, Obsidian just did whatever it wanted and created this god-like character, the Exile. So, personally, Im glad he toned her down. Was just killing her off the mature reaction to what Obsidian did? No, but it is ultimately his creation to do with whatever he wants. Kinda reminds you of someone else deeply involved in Star Wars, no? You obviously have no idea who Chris Avellone is then. Also, I don't mind toning down from the game, the game inevitably will make it's playable character very powerful at the end, as Drew said himself he was dumbing down Revan and to him the Star Forge battle wouldn't just be spamming death field and Force Storm till Malak is dead, it would be a long and deadly battle, the same can be said for Surik's assault on the Trayus Academy but butchering her character and making her out to be nothing in terms of power is nothing like 'toning down', that is outright ignorance of the character or perhaps it really was just Karpyshyn flipping the finger at Avellone, just because Avellone managed to write his game and not just rip-off major themes from the OT. Also, what did you really expect to have happen? Drew was commissioned to make this novel tie in with SWToR while still filling the gap between games. If you expected the Exile and Revan to just cut a path through the Empire and kill the Emperor, then we wouldnt have a SWToR or any new Kotor game really. You know why Drew made the Emperor so powerful? So he would be seen as an actual threat. Here is Revan and the Exile, two characters who's respective games make them out to be the best of the best, and they get beaten in three seconds flat. That isn't entirely meant to be a slap in the face to fans, its just meant to show off how powerful the Emperor and Scourge were. To make the reader actually understand the Empire is a very serious threat to the Galaxy. No, that is taking my words out of context, have them die in a heroic fashion, if to service their fans if nothing else, don't just unceremoniously back stab insta-kill one character and then have the other be Vitiate's ##### for 300 years Also, that is not as true as you seem to think, look at Darth Sidious, or Palpatine as we know him from the original trilogy, he was clearly a threat, he was clearly the most powerful being in the galaxy, but he didn't need to show it, he was done so well he didn't need a big display of power, you had seen Vader destroy Luke once, severing his hand, imagine how deadly the guy he bows to is, the guy who bosses Vader around must be one extremely powerful person. So no, he didn't need to #### on two iconic characters just to put over Vitiate. It was the same theme throughout the entire novel 'OMG leet Emperor is leet, pwnz all', he didn't need demonstrations. Edited April 19, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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