Why can't MMo's get World PvP right?

[xandyzazzy]

Topic is it really hard?

[sonofchiefy]

GW2 I'm confident will produce the best one to date, I don't know if world PvP is fun or not since it's a zergfest really

[IlynPayne]

GW2 I'm confident will produce the best one to date, I don't know if world PvP is fun or not since it's a zergfest really

 

this. as long as u got faction and objective based world pvp, it will always be unbalanced numberwise, and mostly a zerg fest. plus, certain classes just arent built for that kind of zerg gameplay, namely all melee classes.

[xandyzazzy]

Well what about an MMo that will keep people in the world so we can kill them get some good 1v1's etc . I just miss the Vanilla - TBC pre flying mounts time i guess in wow.

[Sabredance]

plus, certain classes just arent built for that kind of zerg gameplay, namely all melee classes.

 

That is not entirely true.

e.g. WAR was dominated by melee trains.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Sabredance

[Dharnyle]

Well if this is wrong, then how would you make it right?

 

Lets theorize about what it takes to make world PvP 'right'.

 

1. A game engine that can handle lots of people in close proximity should be tops on this list. Lots of people should be around 100 at least.

 

2. A reason to World PvP. Not just 'to kill the other side'.

 

3. Not just a reason to Wold PvP, but also a reward for doing well in World PvP.

 

4. Scratch that. PvP infers Player vs. Player. One on One. For 'World PvP' to work, the system for it should be more RvR then PvP.

 

5. To that end, abilities would need to be revamped, especially AoE abilities, to affect more then 1-2 groups.

 

6. A means to allow large groups to all travel at the same speed.

 

7. I'm just going to throw this out there because... World PvP just doesn't work when there are only 2 factions. 3 Factions for RvR to be viable otherwise its just population imbalance and people will get frustrated and stop doing it. But if you have a dominant faction, the other 2 less populated factions WILL... grudingly... 'team' up to hound the larger faction. But it HAS to be the decision of the two minority factions, not forced by the game mechanics.

 

What else?

[Lordgeneral]

I liked warhammer onlines PVP and RVR. Ok it got a bit laggy when there was a keep seige sometimes but it was hell as fun, many great laughs were had from it by everyone on my server .....then it died.

[Dee-Jay]

Well for World PvP to work you need a few things:

 

1. A (or multiple) worthwhile objectives - One of the problems with current Ilum is that the "Valor" buff simply isn't worth fighting over. It simply amplifies the reward for killing player. Without killing other players, the buff it worthless.

 

2. Multiple ways to achieve each objective so as not to result in some mom-stop zergfest.

 

3. A reward system that encourages participation but doesn't simply end at some point. Ideally World PvP should be fun in itself and not require any direct reward, but that's a tall order. However not having any rewards is almost as bad as having reward that, once achieved, offer no incentive to return.

 

4. Mechanics that help hostiles "find" each other. World PvP is boring when you can't find your enemies. Objectives help with that but so do map-markers and call to arms.

[Bozse]

As long as you attach a reward other than bragging rights or area control people will try to bypass the actual PvP to gain the rewards, this is the major flaw with any MMO PvP to date, best I played when it came to PvP was EvE-Online circa 2004-2006, before it became a pure numbers game.

[Feztonio]

why does everyone here at swtor, and at wow, rift, etc all scream GW2, GW2, GW2!!! like it's some sort of magic pill of amazing awsome might? it's not even out yet haha. remember how positive and in love with BW everyone was on the forums here before launch? i'm confident that GW2 will blow and everyone will smash and run it down and then all pine away for the next game that hasn't come out yet.

 

i tried GW1 and it was one of the lamest MMO's i've ever tried. the graphics were yuck and the gameplay was yawn and it seemed to just be an eq / eq2 ripoff.

 

maybe part 2 will truely be the awsomest thing that ever awsomed, but really..... maybe wait until it actually goes live before saying how it's like the 2nd coming of jesus??

[Bocherel]

some did it right

[elvavwiel]

Well if this is wrong, then how would you make it right?

 

Lets theorize about what it takes to make world PvP 'right'.

 

1. A game engine that can handle lots of people in close proximity should be tops on this list. Lots of people should be around 100 at least.

 

2. A reason to World PvP. Not just 'to kill the other side'.

 

3. Not just a reason to Wold PvP, but also a reward for doing well in World PvP.

 

4. Scratch that. PvP infers Player vs. Player. One on One. For 'World PvP' to work, the system for it should be more RvR then PvP.

 

5. To that end, abilities would need to be revamped, especially AoE abilities, to affect more then 1-2 groups.

 

6. A means to allow large groups to all travel at the same speed.

 

7. I'm just going to throw this out there because... World PvP just doesn't work when there are only 2 factions. 3 Factions for RvR to be viable otherwise its just population imbalance and people will get frustrated and stop doing it. But if you have a dominant faction, the other 2 less populated factions WILL... grudingly... 'team' up to hound the larger faction. But it HAS to be the decision of the two minority factions, not forced by the game mechanics.

 

What else?

 

Answer to pretty much all your points: L2 arround 2009 and earlier.

 

1. L2

2. L2 (reputation, dominating other guilds outside of the fort sieges as well as during)

3. L2 (if you dominate the server you can keep other guilds from progressing by locking down access to certain bosses.)

4. In all honesty RvR is the worst idea ever conceived in a system where you want people to interat with eachother, doing RvR pretty much makes 1 server split into 2 'servers' with each only half the population.

5. L2

6. L2 (speed differences between races were minor, not to mention that there were classes that could group summon)

7. As i said in 4 RvR even if you create 4-5-6 factions is a terrible idea simply because it splits the total server population. ie. You'd have faction 1 with 500 players, faction 2 with 200 and factino 3 with 100. For the players of faction 1 their server will feel healthy, for the players of faction 2 it'll be ok'ish, for the players of faction 3 their server will seem dead.

[Bocherel]

Answer to pretty much all your points: L2 arround 2009 and earlier.

 

1. L2

2. L2 (reputation, dominating other guilds outside of the fort sieges as well as during)

3. L2 (if you dominate the server you can keep other guilds from progressing by locking down access to certain bosses.)

4. In all honesty RvR is the worst idea ever conceived in a system where you want people to interat with eachother, doing RvR pretty much makes 1 server split into 2 'servers' with each only half the population.

5. L2

6. L2 (speed differences between races were minor, not to mention that there were classes that could group summon)

7. As i said in 4 RvR even if you create 4-5-6 factions is a terrible idea simply because it splits the total server population. ie. You'd have faction 1 with 500 players, faction 2 with 200 and factino 3 with 100. For the players of faction 1 their server will feel healthy, for the players of faction 2 it'll be ok'ish, for the players of faction 3 their server will seem dead.

^ This guy know

 

great post

[Wildcat]

To answer the OP's question, I think it has to do with the current "conventional wisdom" mentality amongst MMO developers: Open world PVP is a SANDBOX mechanic. It means messy. It means unpredictable. It means things MIGHT NOT HAPPEN AS SCRIPTED.

 

Basically the themepark MMO (which SWTOR is one) is designed around the idea that players can't be trusted to play the game "correctly" and thus must be led down a carefully controlled path.

 

Their elimination of Ilum and shift to warzones exclusively for meaningful PVP (ie that raises your valor levels) is but a product of that mentality that we can't be allowed to do things on our own and must be "led" by moving it all into the confines of little rooms.

 

Fighting it out on Ilum is MUCH preferable, as broken and poorly conceived as it was, to doing 10 warzones a night most of them being told "quit trying to win it's better to lose quickly".

 

That may be so (and will continue to be so, as long as warzones are the only way to go, even if they nerf "rewards" to losers) but it's a sorry a-- game design.

 

I want to fight over planets. I want to fight over space. I want Gimps invading Carrack Station. I want to invade THEIRS. THAT is pvp. That is a galactic war. Fighting in carefully controlled little rooms, one of them as idiotic and NOT war fighting as Huttball is a minigame. A poorly conceived and executed minigame.

[Shlamorel]

World pvp seems to have been most popular in previous mmos where there were no "material" rewards to be gained from engaging in it.

 

In other words, when world pvp was engaged in only for fun and satisfaction.

 

That was my experience in EQ/WoW, anyway- I'm sure everyone has had a different experience.

[Thankyjack]

DAOC and EVE have incredible world pvp. The problem is with imbalance that can occur with only two factions. Accordingly, games with two factions usually have issues with world pvp. Add a third faction, or even an npc faction that can show up and wreck you (thus requiring some class balance in a group) and world pvp gets much better.

[Shlamorel]

I want to fight over planets. I want to fight over space. I want Gimps invading Carrack Station. I want to invade THEIRS. THAT is pvp. That is a galactic war. Fighting in carefully controlled little rooms, one of them as idiotic and NOT war fighting as Huttball is a minigame. A poorly conceived and executed minigame.

 

Agreed.

 

What bothers me more than anything is the 1) increase in the amount of warzones that allow faction vs. faction play and 2) the reduced emphasis on illum... Both of which are coming in 1.2.

 

When I login it says I am at war with the empire on my loading screen. When I play, though, I seem to end up in more warzones with Republic. Doesn't really seem like much of a war...

[xandyzazzy]

1. the quest hubs on each planet are spaced so far apart you never see anyone for leveling up pvp.

 

2. The economy is useless / crew skills useless so nobody at 50 is in the open world grinding / farming stuff which creates pvp..And they make the main ingrediant from dungeon raids where of course no pvp can happen, this is 2 glaring things that makes me get bored with this game fast.

[Tyrias]

To answer the OP's question, I think it has to do with the current "conventional wisdom" mentality amongst MMO developers: Open world PVP is a SANDBOX mechanic. It means messy. It means unpredictable. It means things MIGHT NOT HAPPEN AS SCRIPTED.

 

Basically the themepark MMO (which SWTOR is one) is designed around the idea that players can't be trusted to play the game "correctly" and thus must be led down a carefully controlled path.

 

Their elimination of Ilum and shift to warzones exclusively for meaningful PVP (ie that raises your valor levels) is but a product of that mentality that we can't be allowed to do things on our own and must be "led" by moving it all into the confines of little rooms.

 

Fighting it out on Ilum is MUCH preferable, as broken and poorly conceived as it was, to doing 10 warzones a night most of them being told "quit trying to win it's better to lose quickly".

 

That may be so (and will continue to be so, as long as warzones are the only way to go, even if they nerf "rewards" to losers) but it's a sorry a-- game design.

 

I want to fight over planets. I want to fight over space. I want Gimps invading Carrack Station. I want to invade THEIRS. THAT is pvp. That is a galactic war. Fighting in carefully controlled little rooms, one of them as idiotic and NOT war fighting as Huttball is a minigame. A poorly conceived and executed minigame.

 

Heh, I actually view it as completely the opposite. I think at the moment, things don't work because of player attitudes more than dev ones.

 

As far as I see it, Illum has become what it is because a lot of people "refused" to use it properly. First Objective swapping, then kill trading. Devs only develop the mentality that we can't be trusted to do things on our own because the SWTOR community as a whole demonstrates time and time again that they can't be trusted to.

 

Even in Warzones, as someone else in this thread has pointed out, some people think that deliberately losing is better (once you've gotten your 4 medals) because it's the most time efficient way to get your rewards.

 

Which is the whole problem. Whenever rewards are available for things, people will look to the easiest way to obtain the rewards. Because PvP isn't designed to be "An easy way to get things", the easiest way is rarely proper PvP.

 

The only way PvP can and will work is when there is no meaningful reward for it, and people do it for the fun of it. Then they'll be more concerned with actually enjoying PvP and not just reward farming in the most efficient manner possible.

[Tic-]

World pvp seems to have been most popular in previous mmos where there were no "material" rewards to be gained from engaging in it.

 

In other words, when world pvp was engaged in only for fun and satisfaction.

 

That was my experience in EQ/WoW, anyway- I'm sure everyone has had a different experience.

 

I think the problem is rewarding the individual for world PvP.. Folks are more concerned with themselves and their next BiS, than their faction, and you get kill trading etc.

 

Perhaps rewarding the faction for world PvP somewhat like DAoC, would inspire some realm pride. Offer crafting bonuses, experience/valor bonuses, nothing too extreme, but enough to motivate. In the future allow it to open "dungeons" and the like.

 

Its a little more difficult than that, but its better than going out for another pair of boots in my opinion.

 

People demand more these days than just go kill, in both PvP, and PvE.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Tic-

[Shlamorel]

I think the problem is rewarding the individual for world PvP.. Folks are more concerned with themselves and their next BiS, than their faction, and you get kill trading etc.

 

Perhaps rewarding the faction for world PvP somewhat like DAoC, would inspire some realm pride. Offer crafting bonuses, experience/valor bonuses, nothing too extreme, but enough to motivate. In the future allow it to open "dungeons" and the like.

 

Its a little more difficult than that, but its better than going out for another pair of boots in my opinion.

 

People demand more these days than just go kill, in both PvP, and PvE.

 

I agree that's what folks are mostly concerned with - I just happen to think it isn't good for the MMO genre as a whole. Again though, I totally support differences in opinion- the MMO market is driven by the majority's preferences, and I'm ok with that even though I'm not in the majority =\

[Shlamorel]

Heh, I actually view it as completely the opposite. I think at the moment, things don't work because of player attitudes more than dev ones.

 

As far as I see it, Illum has become what it is because a lot of people "refused" to use it properly. First Objective swapping, then kill trading. Devs only develop the mentality that we can't be trusted to do things on our own because the SWTOR community as a whole demonstrates time and time again that they can't be trusted to.

 

Even in Warzones, as someone else in this thread has pointed out, some people think that deliberately losing is better (once you've gotten your 4 medals) because it's the most time efficient way to get your rewards.

 

Which is the whole problem. Whenever rewards are available for things, people will look to the easiest way to obtain the rewards. Because PvP isn't designed to be "An easy way to get things", the easiest way is rarely proper PvP.

 

The only way PvP can and will work is when there is no meaningful reward for it, and people do it for the fun of it. Then they'll be more concerned with actually enjoying PvP and not just reward farming in the most efficient manner possible.

 

Agreed.

 

If you look up scientific research regarding psychology and rewards, it teaches us this:

 

providing rewards for something that someone already enjoys doing (without the reward) will reduce the pleasure gained from the activity itself and require more reward to be satisfying. Eventually, the original interest is significantly diminished and the pleasure becomes associated with the reward rather than the intrinsic value they (used to) get from that activity.

 

I swear, a group of psychologists need to design an MMO. They would make an excellent dev team.

[KrackenOne]

What do you consider right?

[Elwacko]

the best PvP games are FPS (First Person Shooters) MMORPGs now dress up "pvp" with toys and call it something else... but they are still FPS. Without a risk/reward system in place, this is what you get. If you don't lose anything, it's just a simple FPS with paint on it.

 

there have been some really good games in the past, but the time dedicated and the massive hours needed killed it.

[Lyshar]

Well if this is wrong, then how would you make it right?

 

Lets theorize about what it takes to make world PvP 'right'.

 

1. A game engine that can handle lots of people in close proximity should be tops on this list. Lots of people should be around 100 at least.

Agreed

 

2. A reason to World PvP. Not just 'to kill the other side'.

Agreed, myself I imagine a planet completely designed to be conquered. Filled with outposts to obtain. Making players work together to take over and defend said outposts.

 

The problem that may pop up is when people go offline in masses, may make outposts with minimal opposition. But things can be done to limit those.

 

3. Not just a reason to Wold PvP, but also a reward for doing well in World PvP.

If the reason is done well enough (and the game itself made for it) a reward isn't needed. However, with the way this one is set up a reward is very much needed, but it should be for the objectives, not blindly kills.

 

4. Scratch that. PvP infers Player vs. Player. One on One. For 'World PvP' to work, the system for it should be more RvR then PvP.

 

5. To that end, abilities would need to be revamped, especially AoE abilities, to affect more then 1-2 groups.

Not needed to increase areas of effects, that would work against large scale conflics. But things need to be build around large battles none the less.

 

6. A means to allow large groups to all travel at the same speed.

Well, to allow large groups to travel together at least. But in my opinion transports on pre-defined flight paths between outposts that you can just jump on would suffice, but they need to be frequent.

 

7. I'm just going to throw this out there because... World PvP just doesn't work when there are only 2 factions. 3 Factions for RvR to be viable otherwise its just population imbalance and people will get frustrated and stop doing it. But if you have a dominant faction, the other 2 less populated factions WILL... grudingly... 'team' up to hound the larger faction. But it HAS to be the decision of the two minority factions, not forced by the game mechanics.

 

What else?

 

Three factions is better than two, but still too few im my opinion, I'd vote for seven to create a large diplomatic web of possibilities. Besides if 3 factions need to be balanced you assume that 1 faction gets about 50% of the PvPers. If you have more then allegiances can shift more easilly (meaning more fun as things are less predictable).

 

Ofcourse we don't need to count on getting another faction for SWTOR, so this is just theory.