SWTOR Vs WoW: Blizzard gets it

[Andryah]

Industry standards are not determined solely by the developers of SWTOR. Is that hard to comprehend?

 

There are no "industry standards" for MMOs. Just players making proclomations on gaming forums that there are.

 

MMOs are not ISO compliant, because there is no compliance standard for them.

[RabidPopcorn]

There are no "industry standards" for MMOs. Just players making proclomations on gaming forums that there are.

 

MMOs are not ISO compliant, because there is no compliance standard for them.

 

Lack of an ISO standard doesn't equate to a lack of an industry standard.

[Frostvein]

There are no "industry standards" for MMOs.

 

In your opinion.

[Andryah]

Lack of an ISO standard doesn't equate to a lack of an industry standard.

 

Please show me the industry standard specification for MMOs. Link the document please.

[Touchbass]

Please show me the industry standard specification for MMOs. Link the document please.

 

Common sense for one

[RabidPopcorn]

Please show me the industry standard specification for MMOs. Link the document please.

 

 

quick google search turns up this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto_standard

[Tahana]

You're just willfully ignoring expectations and standards from MMOs that cost half of what it cost to make SWTOR. You can make the "everything is subjective" argument but the reality is there are expectations. Very real expectations from the collective consumer formulated by an ever evolving gaming industry. SWTOR is currently a single player game with multiplayer functions not a MMO.

 

The game is missing basic comprehensive UI features and a guild bank.

 

So some people would state that the Trinity is a gaming standard.. (Tank, Heal, DD).. If an MMO broke that mold are they then not programming to MMO Standards? I think you are making claims that you have no idea..

 

Customer Expectations != Standards. They are expectations nothing more.. Not all Cars have four wheel drive, not all cars have anti-lock breaks, not all cars can parallel park themselves, not all cars have backup warning sensors. Several different manufacturers have those features, but they are not a standard.

 

I own a business, my customers can 'expect' my products to do something other than their intended purpose.. But its not going to happen.. Simply put fiber optic cable can only transmit light signals.. and you would be surprised the number of people who think it transmits electrical signals, but just because they think that, doesn't make it true or capable of doing so.

 

In the real world people have to make timelines.. In the real world people are expected to deliver on time. Sometimes it works to the consumers benefit, sometimes it doesn't. In the real world people have to answer to stock holders and venture capitalists even when we don't want to. When someone else holds the purse strings they are ultimately the boss. If something isn't meeting your expectations then I don't understand why you would even purchase the goods in the first place? I knew coming into this game it was lacking a lot of features that are the norm in other games. I play anyway. But I also don't sit on the forms and pitch a fit about it either.

[Hxxr]

Common sense for one

 

When I think of 'industry standard' 'common sense' is one of the last things that come to mind.

 

 

Rabid Popcorn:

Did you actually read the link you just posted? How on earth is this applicable to MMOs? You are aware that a de facto standard means everyone within a large group of people (counting billions and entier countries or even world wide) uses the same product or product type. If this would be true for MMOs we would all be playing WoW.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Hxxr

[RabidPopcorn]

So some people would state that the Trinity is a gaming standard.. (Tank, Heal, DD).. If an MMO broke that mold are they then not programming to MMO Standards? I think you are making claims that you have no idea..

 

Customer Expectations != Standards. They are expectations nothing more.. Not all Cars have four wheel drive, not all cars have anti-lock breaks, not all cars can parallel park themselves, not all cars have backup warning sensors. Several different manufacturers have those features, but they are not a standard.

 

I own a business, my customers can 'expect' my products to do something other than their intended purpose.. But its not going to happen.. Simply put fiber optic cable can only transmit light signals.. and you would be surprised the number of people who think it transmits electrical signals, but just because they think that, doesn't make it true or capable of doing so.

 

In the real world people have to make timelines.. In the real world people are expected to deliver on time. Sometimes it works to the consumers benefit, sometimes it doesn't. In the real world people have to answer to stock holders and venture capitalists even when we don't want to. When someone else holds the purse strings they are ultimately the boss. If something isn't meeting your expectations then I don't understand why you would even purchase the goods in the first place? I knew coming into this game it was lacking a lot of features that are the norm in other games. I play anyway. But I also don't sit on the forms and pitch a fit about it either.

 

Don't you get consumer feedback?

[noodlehaus]

Did you actually read the link you just posted? How on earth is this applicable to MMOs? You are aware that a de facto standard means everyone within a large group of people (counting billions and entier countries or even world wide) uses the same product or product type. If this would be true for MMOs we would all be playing WoW.

 

WoW has 10m+ subscribers. Almost all MMO players know it and have played it. Even people who don't play it know it. TV shows have featured it many times. Hence, making it the industry leader and hence, being the de facto standard.

[RabidPopcorn]

When I think of 'industry standard' 'common sense' is one of the last things that come to mind.

 

 

Rabid Popcorn:

Did you actually read the link you just posted? How on earth is this applicable to MMOs? You are aware that a de facto standard means everyone within a large group of people (counting billions and entier countries or even world wide) uses the same product or product type. If this would be true for MMOs we would all be playing WoW.

 

I read thru it briefly, my layman understanding of that wikipedia page was its first sentence: "A de facto standard is a custom, convention, product, or system that has achieved a dominant position by public acceptance or market forces (such as early entrance to the market)"

Edited March 27, 2012 by RabidPopcorn

[Andryah]

quick google search turns up this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto_standard

 

There is no defacto standard for MMOs. If there was, you would be able to actually link it. You can't, just like you cannot link any actual industry standard document.

 

Player opinions on a gaming forum are not a defacto standard.

[Frostvein]

Please show me the industry standard specification for MMOs. Link the document please.

 

you mean you want me to find proof like I did here -

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...66#post3588266

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Andryah

Well, for starters... please provide the link that quotes them as saying "All the modern MMO features". Whoops.. that's right... you are self admittedly paraphrasing (which means you are interpreting).

 

Dev Tracker August 4th, 2011 -

 

"We are on the finishing stretches for this game, the first BioWare MMO set in the Star Wars: The Old Republic era. It's a spiritual sequel to the KotOR games and focuses heavily on bringing BioWare story into the MMO space. It features a highly polished and fluent evolution of traditional MMO combat systems. It has the bells and whistles of a modern MMO, it's faithful to the IP and universe it's set in and it features BioWare's signature features such as story, companions, etc."

 

So shh.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Frostvein

[noodlehaus]

All the arguments happening here regarding standards are irrelevant and pointless.

 

The bottom line is, for any game to compete in the market, it has to somewhat offer things that the genre leader doesn't or at least improve on what's already out there.

 

WoW is undeniably the leader when it comes to MMOs. If you deny this, then you must be living in your own little world for the past few years.

 

Being the leader, everything it offers has become the expectations to meet and beat for most MMO gamers.

[noodlehaus]

There is no defacto standard for MMOs. If there was, you would be able to actually link it. You can't, just like you cannot link any actual industry standard document.

 

Player opinions on a gaming forum are not a defacto standard.

 

a de facto standard is something that almost everyone knows and uses. because everyone knows and uses it, it becomes the set bar for others to meet.

 

here's your de facto standard:

 

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com

 

it's a fact that the game is the leader in the current batch of MMOs available. it is the game to beat. if you think otherwise, then just keep munching those jedi cookies.

Edited March 27, 2012 by noodlehaus

[RabidPopcorn]

There is no defacto standard for MMOs. If there was, you would be able to actually link it. You can't, just like you cannot link any actual industry standard document.

 

Player opinions on a gaming forum are not a defacto standard.

 

Admittedly, I'm not a gaming industry insider so I can't challenge the fact that there doesn't exist a formal document like a UN Charter of the gaming industry.

 

However, I humbly submit that if we were to only consider industry standards by reference to formal documents, we may be missing the whole point of this argument by taking too narrow an approach.

[Andryah]

a de facto standard is something that almost everyone knows and uses. because everyone knows and uses it, it becomes the set bar for others to meat.

 

here's your de facto standard:

 

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com

 

it's a fact that the game is the leader in the current batch of MMOs available. it is the game to beat. if you think otherwise, then just keep munching those jedi cookies.

 

Nope. The market is not owned by WoW, hence it is not the standard. There are many competing properties in the market space. Oh WoW is an often touted pedestal by MMO players in gaming forums that demand other MMOs copy it verbatim though. Which is not relevant to any claim of a standard for MMO features.

[Frostvein]

Nope. The market is not owned by WoW, hence it is not the standard. There are many competing properties in the market space. Oh WoW is an often touted pedestal by MMO players in gaming forums that demand other MMOs copy it verbatim though. Which is not relevant to any claim of a standard for MMO features.

 

Keep dodging.

[noodlehaus]

Nope. The market is not owned by WoW, hence it is not the standard. There are many competing properties in the market space. Oh WoW is an often touted pedestal by MMO players in gaming forums that demand other MMOs copy it verbatim though. Which is not relevant to any claim of a standard for MMO features.

 

yes, you are missing the point. and i'm thinking, intentionally, cos those jedi cookies are oh so delicious.

[Tenceriker]

Nope. The market is not owned by WoW, hence it is not the standard. There are many competing properties in the market space. Oh WoW is an often touted pedestal by MMO players in gaming forums that demand other MMOs copy it verbatim though. Which is not relevant to any claim of a standard for MMO features.

 

The market is owned by Blizzard because every company wants to be as successful as WoW and for you to miss something so common just show clueless you are.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Tenceriker

[Esproc]

I read thru it briefly, my layman understanding of that wikipedia page was its first sentence: "A de facto standard is a custom, convention, product, or system that has achieved a dominant position by public acceptance or market forces (such as early entrance to the market)"

 

It also goes on to describe the "War of Currents".

 

The "War of Currents" is often personified by the Tesla vs. Edison.

 

Edison's direct current was the standard for the United States, alternating current had first developed in Europe.

 

We use AC in our houses, our vehicles and generators use DC.

 

De facto standard is ??? Do you get one and not the other? They are both in use, but were also both competing for the same thing at the same time, the market share.

 

In short, as there is no de facto over all, both are in use and hold a share of the market in their respective spots.

 

If you claim in fact that there is a de facto in electricity, then you must surely give up either your house or transportation and back up power.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Esproc

[Frostvein]

Don't bother with Andryah, I've basically point blank proved him/her at wrong at least twice and they never respond.

[RabidPopcorn]

It also goes on to describe the "War of Currents".

 

The "War of Currents" is often personified by the Tesla vs. Edison.

 

Edison's direct current was the standard for the United States, alternating current had first developed in Europe.

 

We use AC in our houses, our vehicles and generators use DC.

 

De facto standard is ??? Do you get one and not the other? They are both in use, but were also both competing for the same thing at the same time, the market share.

 

In short, as there is no de facto over all, both are in use and hold a share of the market in their respective spots.

 

If you claim in fact that there is a de facto in electricity, then you must surely give up either your house or transportation and back up power.

 

I don't think the webpage actually concluded that there was a de-facto standard in electricity? It merely gave an example of a battle between AC and DC; AC triumphed in the homes and DC was used in cars as you said. So it might have meant that AC won in terms of the scale (large-scale distribution of electricity).

[DevonLoy]

I think the point almost everyone in this forum is missing is the fact that, YOUR NOT THE ONLY PERSON WHO THINKS LIKE THIS, the developers are not made up of a bunch of sheltered idiots with the internet turned off.

 

A lot of them are gamers like us, and most of them have probably played WoW and other MMO's, they know whats missing, they know whats not.

 

They have thought these things before launch and after, it's their job to know these things, but it is also their job to take into account every other opinion or fact on "EVERY" topic in development.

 

Cross server LFG's, raid logs, etc.. Take a lot to develop. The thing a lot of people are not taking to account with these is.

 

Yes WoW has them, TOR does not, they were successful in WoW, they might be successful in TOR, but as I said before they are not "easy" to implement, and since WoW practically invented these things, however long after there launch, It's almost impossible to tell how much it took them to implement them.

 

Especially since WoW had a different engine, and wasn't as "technologically advanced" as TORs.

 

People allways make the argument that TOR took XXX$ to develop, but compared to what is that a bad price. I'm not sure what WoWs development price was, but I know it was much lower. But WoW has had 10 years of development to impliment everything, and if you add in all of that time into cost, it gets a bit closer.

 

Now if you take into account Bio-Ware having to produce the game, develop it, pay EA, pay Lucas Arts, pay their voice actors and significantly large teams, thats a lot.

 

But then if you add in all the extra development it would have taken to add in everything some people wanted, it would have looked ridiculous in the eyes of any buisness proffesional trying to make money of this project.

[RabidPopcorn]

I think the point almost everyone in this forum is missing is the fact that, YOUR NOT THE ONLY PERSON WHO THINKS LIKE THIS, the developers are not made up of a bunch of sheltered idiots with the internet turned off.

 

A lot of them are gamers like us, and most of them have probably played WoW and other MMO's, they know whats missing, they know whats not.

 

They have thought these things before launch and after, it's their job to know these things, but it is also their job to take into account every other opinion or fact on "EVERY" topic in development.

 

Cross server LFG's, raid logs, etc.. Take a lot to develop. The thing a lot of people are not taking to account with these is.

 

Yes WoW has them, TOR does not, they were successful in WoW, they might be successful in TOR, but as I said before they are not "easy" to implement, and since WoW practically invented these things, however long after there launch, It's almost impossible to tell how much it took them to implement them.

 

Especially since WoW had a different engine, and wasn't as "technologically advanced" as TORs.

 

People allways make the argument that TOR took XXX$ to develop, but compared to what is that a bad price. I'm not sure what WoWs development price was, but I know it was much lower. But WoW has had 10 years of development to impliment everything, and if you add in all of that time into cost, it gets a bit closer.

 

Now if you take into account Bio-Ware having to produce the game, develop it, pay EA, pay Lucas Arts, pay their voice actors and significantly large teams, thats a lot.

 

But then if you add in all the extra development it would have taken to add in everything some people wanted, it would have looked ridiculous in the eyes of any buisness proffesional trying to make money of this project.

 

Fair point; but really to what extent is it the consumers' duty to care about the business workings?