SWTOR Vs WoW: Blizzard gets it

[Drewser]

No, it usually doesn't. But in WoW's case it definitely does. Consumers got that one right.

 

An example of failure would be Windows. There couldn't be a larger piece of rubbish OS out there, but the majority of consumers use it. They got that one wrong.

 

That is simply your opinion.

[Azzras]

No, it usually doesn't. But in WoW's case it definitely does. Consumers got that one right.

 

An example of failure would be Windows. There couldn't be a larger piece of rubbish OS out there, but the majority of consumers use it. They got that one wrong.

 

Please don't tell me you think Mac is the greatest.

 

I will cry for humanity.

 

If you say a linux flavor I might give you some credit, but Mac is a waste of money and HDD space.

[Azzras]

I guess we're debating because you're consistently wrong.

 

You realize that if Chinese players play as much as a monthly subscription would allow (when obviously they play much less, as we all do) they actually pay MORE per month than subscribers? You didin't realize that, did you?

 

And the argument is not about how much money is made... don't move the goal posts. It's squarely about how many PLAYERS there are... the fact is those are numbers TOR will never see.

 

I'll answer this ^ with this:

 

True. They pay very little on a dynamic basis where they pay pennies for each hour played. Buzzard also captures a small part of the revenue from Chinese players. So although they profit form the Chinese player base, the amount is small. The real profit / revenue is in the paying subs.

 

My experience with WOW, cancelled my subs about nine months ago, is that on a supposed moderate server, you could level from 1 to 85 or roam the world gathering and not see another player until you got to SW. There I often saw about 40 - 50 players milling around or standing in a stupor while they waited for lfg to kick in.

 

I did try the free to play 20 level promotion a week ago and there were a ton of people running around in the starting zone. I am not sure how this translates into new subs or what it really means other than people will play the first twenty levels of WOW for free.

[Offended]

Here is the key to this debate. 3rd partys arnt an option in wow and wow never gave us that option. For them to be an option there would have to be an alternative in the core game to chose over the add on. And the incentive to implement them in the game even for wow is a simple one.

 

If these so called add ons are so standardized by wow then why is it that wow who mainatain there own engine and code cannot after 8 years even do the simplests thing like the UI, rift and sto managed the basics to it on release and swtor is starting it from the 4 month mark in.

 

So there is no incentive for wow to implememnt these things due to the fact that there are 3rd partys forced to maintain these addons that are standardized thus increasing profit for bliz due to A) they diont have to maintain the code B) can claim credit to there usefulness and attribute it to there core engine as if they had done it themselves.

 

I am totally confused by what you are trying to say.

 

first, you say that 3rd party isn't an option? What do you mean? 3rd party game clients? Well NO you definitely do not want a 3rd party coming in and writing you a game client. I mean, can you honestly think of a less secure method of playing wow there?

 

If you mean by addons, then 3rd party addons are explicitly allowed in World of Warcraft. I don't know if you realize this but the entire UI itself, is a collection of addons written by wow. These would be 1st party addons, btw.

 

Here is blizzards new Raid UI

http://wowprogramming.com/utils/xmlbrowser/live/AddOns/Blizzard_RaidUI/Blizzard_RaidUI.xml

http://wowprogramming.com/utils/xmlbrowser/live/AddOns/Blizzard_RaidUI/Blizzard_RaidUI.lua

 

Now, what basics are you talking about. your second paragraph seems to be a mess of incomplete thoughts. What about the simplest things in the UI that they can't do.

 

Are you talking about unlocking frames, moving elements around, and all that jazz? You can do that in warcraft. its actually not difficult, but they don't provide an "editor" to speak, in the way that Bioware is doing. There's no need to when you have a modding community that is so expansive as World of Warcraft.

 

 

When an addon is so widely used that it becomes easier and better for blizzard to maintain it, they contact the author and negotiate with them on integrating their addon in to the default UI.

 

Your point is just random dribble coming from your mouth. Warcrafts UI has expanded 10fold from release to it's current version. They've added hundreds of what used to be 3rd party addons directly in to the UI.

 

Power Auras,

Threat Meters

Buff/debuff display

Character Sheet Changes

Item Compare.

Action Bar updates

Map Changes

Quest Log, Tracker window and Quest helper type additions

Combat Log (it's always been there yes, but the current log is modeled after HitsMod, which allowed you to customize what the log displayed).

Moving the loot window to the cursor

Chatbox updates

Floating Combat Text (it's been there but was never as advanced as it is now)

Raid Frames have gone through dozens of updates.

 

All of those were 3rd party addons incorporated in to wow.

[Ravand]

wow has lost subs for the last 4 quarters, they laid off 600 emplyees a few weeks ago, thier stock has been downgraded, yep the old game is just that old, it made tons of money and is still making money, I give wow a couple more years it will be free to play, can't be number 1 for ever in fact they are no longer number one, some Moba game, League of legends or something like that has 11.4 million now.. to wow's 10.3 million.. I really could care less about wow or what happens to it, to me it was the worst mmo I ever played, bored me to tears.. I don't compare TOR to wow, two different games, two different theme parks, like sea word to disney world. /shrug

 

Lets talk statistics

WoW around 1 mil subs in US and 1 mil subs in Europe

around 7 mil subs in china and korea. But... there is a but.....

KOREA and CHINA subs aren't pay per month

They are pay by hour... this means that an account with 20min in it, but inactive for a year is considered active and looks good for statistics

Its a marketing trick.

[Lethality]

In china, a one-time use card which gives you 4000 minutes of playing time costs 30 RMB (4.66 USD), or about 0.45 RMB (7 cents US) per hour.

 

Do the math reguarding your play time.

 

In china, a one-time use card which gives you 4000 minutes of playing time costs 30 RMB (4.66 USD), or about 0.45 RMB (7 cents US) per hour.

 

Do the math reguarding your play time.

 

Thank you.

 

Whereas a subscriber works out to just 2 cents US per hour.

 

While most players, even in China, don't play 24 hours a day... you could make the assumption of an 8 hour play day. If you add that up... (8*.07) * 30 = $16.80 cents US per month.

 

So, yeah.

 

Everyone else read this?

[Lethality]

Lets talk statistics

WoW around 1 mil subs in US and 1 mil subs in Europe

around 7 mil subs in china and korea. But... there is a but.....

KOREA and CHINA subs aren't pay per month

They are pay by hour... this means that an account with 20min in it, but inactive for a year is considered active and looks good for statistics

Its a marketing trick.

 

You have no clue, those aren't the numbers, and that's not how it works at all.

[Shingara]

I am totally confused by what you are trying to say.

 

 

first, you say that 3rd party isn't an option? What do you mean? 3rd party game clients? Well NO you definitely do not want a 3rd party coming in and writing you a game client. I mean, can you honestly think of a less secure method of playing wow there?

 

If you mean by addons, then 3rd party addons are explicitly allowed in World of Warcraft. I don't know if you realize this but the entire UI itself, is a collection of addons written by wow. These would be 1st party addons, btw.

 

Here is blizzards new Raid UI

http://wowprogramming.com/utils/xmlbrowser/live/AddOns/Blizzard_RaidUI/Blizzard_RaidUI.xml

http://wowprogramming.com/utils/xmlbrowser/live/AddOns/Blizzard_RaidUI/Blizzard_RaidUI.lua

 

Now, what basics are you talking about. your second paragraph seems to be a mess of incomplete thoughts. What about the simplest things in the UI that they can't do.

 

Are you talking about unlocking frames, moving elements around, and all that jazz? You can do that in warcraft. its actually not difficult, but they don't provide an "editor" to speak, in the way that Bioware is doing. There's no need to when you have a modding community that is so expansive as World of Warcraft.

 

 

When an addon is so widely used that it becomes easier and better for blizzard to maintain it, they contact the author and negotiate with them on integrating their addon in to the default UI.

 

Your point is just random dribble coming from your mouth. Warcrafts UI has expanded 10fold from release to it's current version. They've added hundreds of what used to be 3rd party addons directly in to the UI.

 

Power Auras,

Threat Meters

Buff/debuff display

Character Sheet Changes

Item Compare.

Action Bar updates

Map Changes

Quest Log, Tracker window and Quest helper type additions

Combat Log (it's always been there yes, but the current log is modeled after HitsMod, which allowed you to customize what the log displayed).

Moving the loot window to the cursor

Chatbox updates

Floating Combat Text (it's been there but was never as advanced as it is now)

Raid Frames have gone through dozens of updates.

 

All of those were 3rd party addons incorporated in to wow.

 

take a breath, i know you love to argue the point. to be an option it would have to be available in the core game if add ons were not available. now take another breath as i am not disputing what has been put into wow at any stage.

 

You know like it is an option within 1.2 todo certain things without the need for add ons and how it is optional now for specific things without the use of an api nor addons right now.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Shingara

[Vankris]

Thank you.

 

Whereas a subscriber works out to just 2 cents US per hour.

 

While most players, even in China, don't play 24 hours a day... you could make the assumption of an 8 hour play day. If you add that up... (8*.07) * 30 = $16.80 cents US per month.

 

So, yeah.

 

Everyone else read this?

 

i don't know chinese play time and style, but 8 hour a day every day? that is a bit harsh for a hobby. Chinese still have work, school, familiy duty, spiritual life and other hobby.

 

 

reguarding my own play time in wow, i'd say about 10 hours a week (we clear heroic dragon soul in 1 night, that's about 4 hours, and rush firelands heroic and 2 hours). Give or take some log in for replenish raid mat and do some PVP, maybe an alt run to dragon soul.

 

so that would give me $.7 a week or about $3 a month given my current play time. Unfortuantely, i'm in europe so i pay a full sub (in euro).

Edited March 28, 2012 by Vankris

[Drewser]

Thank you.

 

Whereas a subscriber works out to just 2 cents US per hour.

 

While most players, even in China, don't play 24 hours a day... you could make the assumption of an 8 hour play day. If you add that up... (8*.07) * 30 = $16.80 cents US per month.

 

So, yeah.

 

Everyone else read this?

 

That is a very funny way to look at it.

 

The simply fact is unless you are playing 200-250 hours per month, it is cheaper to pay by the hour given the Chinese rate than maintain a US or Euro sub.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Drewser

[asbalana]

Thank you.

 

Whereas a subscriber works out to just 2 cents US per hour.

 

While most players, even in China, don't play 24 hours a day... you could make the assumption of an 8 hour play day. If you add that up... (8*.07) * 30 = $16.80 cents US per month.

 

So, yeah.

 

Everyone else read this?

 

 

LOL, anyone have an idea of how many players play eight hours a day every day each month.

[Lethality]

That is a very funny way to look at it.

 

The simply fact is unless you are playing 200-250 hours per month, it is cheaper to pay by the hour given the Chinese rate than maintain a US or Euro sub.

 

There aren't even 700 hours in a month, just FYI.

 

The average rate for paying is indeed cheaper... but some people have this impression of only "pennies" per month for Chinese players who have no subs, when in reality they're paying much close to US subscription rates even though they aren't subscribers.

[Azzras]

Thank you.

 

Whereas a subscriber works out to just 2 cents US per hour.

 

While most players, even in China, don't play 24 hours a day... you could make the assumption of an 8 hour play day. If you add that up... (8*.07) * 30 = $16.80 cents US per month.

 

So, yeah.

 

Everyone else read this?

 

So the thing you're missing is, they only pay for the time they play.

 

Do you play WoW 8 hours per day every single day?

 

I'm guessing (even though I have my doubts that you even have an active sub to WoW) that you average 2-3 hours per night and you don't log in every night.

 

You will pay $15 per month, in China your time carries over. You only pay for what time you have played.

 

So say I play 3 nights per week, 3 hours per night which is more realistic than 8 hours per day everyday like you suggested. That's 9 hours per week. The card gives 66ish hours for almost $5. That's roughly 7 weeks of play time. I would have paid almost $30 for my subscription and they paid only $5.

 

Make sense?

 

In China, even if you only logged in for 20 minutes ever, your account would still be counted because you have remaining time on your card.

 

Here, you stop paying at the end of your month so you cannot be counted.

[Drewser]

There aren't even 700 hours in a month, just FYI.

 

The average rate for paying is indeed cheaper... but some people have this impression of only "pennies" per month for Chinese players who have no subs, when in reality they're paying much close to US subscription rates even though they aren't subscribers.

 

 

Yeah, there are 700 or more hours in most months - 30*24 = 720.

 

But the fact remains, they are not paying close to the US rate unless they are logging 50 hours per week.

[NasherUK]

Lets talk statistics

WoW around 1 mil subs in US and 1 mil subs in Europe

around 7 mil subs in china and korea. But... there is a but.....

KOREA and CHINA subs aren't pay per month

They are pay by hour... this means that an account with 20min in it, but inactive for a year is considered active and looks good for statistics

Its a marketing trick.

 

This is correct.

 

I used to work for another MMO which used the same tactic. I think most other MMO developers are more honest with their numbers. Wow does not actually have anywhere near 10 million active players.

Edited March 28, 2012 by NasherUK

[Shingara]

There aren't even 700 hours in a month, just FYI.

.

 

I have no idea what this is refering to but have you ever heard of january, march, may, july, August, october and december.

[Kinrain]

There aren't even 700 hours in a month, just FYI.

 

The average rate for paying is indeed cheaper... but some people have this impression of only "pennies" per month for Chinese players who have no subs, when in reality they're paying much close to US subscription rates even though they aren't subscribers.

 

Um...actually....there are generally 720 hours in a month (30 days x 24hrs = 720).

 

But thats really off topic.

 

The question being debated should be 'Do Blizzard 'get it' when it comes to making a decent mmo'.

 

I think not. WoW is like MacDonalds, it appeals to the masses but can hardly be considered to be a 'good' game. The number of customers does not equate to the quality of a product, just to its mass market appeal.

 

Millions will go and eat at MacDonalds today, very few will eat at The Ivy in London, but I think we all know which is the reheated toxic crap and which is the top quality meal.

 

Hmm, reheated toxic crap. Maybe we should rename WoW to RTC.

[Lethality]

So the thing you're missing is, they only pay for the time they play.

 

Do you play WoW 8 hours per day every single day?

 

I'm guessing (even though I have my doubts that you even have an active sub to WoW) that you average 2-3 hours per night and you don't log in every night.

 

You will pay $15 per month, in China your time carries over. You only pay for what time you have played.

 

So say I play 3 nights per week, 3 hours per night which is more realistic than 8 hours per day everyday like you suggested. That's 9 hours per week. The card gives 66ish hours for almost $5. That's roughly 7 weeks of play time. I would have paid almost $30 for my subscription and they paid only $5.

 

Make sense?

 

In China, even if you only logged in for 20 minutes ever, your account would still be counted because you have remaining time on your card.

 

Here, you stop paying at the end of your month so you cannot be counted.

 

And every other MMO that can/does measure internationally in the far east would do/is doing the same thing! So the numbers are all correct and relative to industry reporting. i.e. Blizzard dominance.

 

Also, the average HHI in China, in 2010 at first glance appears to be about $10,000US. In the US, the average HHI was about $84,000US.

 

So their salaries are about 8 times less than ours, and their game payments are about 6 times less than hours. Seems to all line up.

 

And yes, I play WoW and have had an active subscription since day 1 on November 23, 2004.

[Harleyz]

Warcraft has had nearly ten years of development and is still crap. I have tried playing it 3 times over the years and could not stand it for more than a couple weeks. that said, let the horse rest in piece. Quit bringing up the TOR/wow comparisons. They are getting old and annoying.

 

14 million peak people must e wrong. Lol.

[Drewser]

I have no idea what this is refering to but have you ever heard of january, march, may, july, August, october and december.

 

Why leave out April, June, September and November?

 

Feb is the only month with under 700 hours.

[Offended]

Actualy there are around 10.3 mil total. Trials of which under 20 is never ending, scrolls and accounts with subscriptions upon them. The number of those accounts that belong to multiple people are unknown as multiboxing is big on world of warcraft. There is also 1 million or so people who bought the annual pass of which we know not how many are still actually playing the game, obviously we would expect all but we cannot presume to know this.

 

Wow is also used in china as a prison gang activity which is an unknown number that actually do this but this also impacts upon the numbers of active gamers playing wow.

 

 

You can find this on any press release from blizzard concerning subscription numbers

 

World of Warcraft® subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Subscribers in licensees’ territories are defined along the same rules.

 

Trial accounts are not and never have been included.

 

Blizzard has, at one time, issued a statement saying that the people that multibox do not add any meaningful results to the subscription numbers (meaning they are rounded off).

[Azzras]

14 million peak people must e wrong. Lol.

 

In the old days, billions of people thought the Earth was flat and the Sun/galaxy revolved around us.

 

How did that turn out for them?

[Shingara]

Why leave out April, June, September and November?

 

Feb is the only month with under 700 hours.

 

i didnt want to make him feel worse.

[Harleyz]

In the old days, billions of people thought the Earth was flat and the Sun/galaxy revolved around us.

 

How did that turn out for them?

 

The old days u speak of, well there werent billions of people. Try a new analogy.

I may check back later to see how you go with that.

[Lethality]

Um...actually....there are generally 720 hours in a month (30 days x 24hrs = 720).

 

But thats really off topic.

 

The question being debated should be 'Do Blizzard 'get it' when it comes to making a decent mmo'.

 

I think not. WoW is like MacDonalds, it appeals to the masses but can hardly be considered to be a 'good' game. The number of customers does not equate to the quality of a product, just to its mass market appeal.

 

Millions will go and eat at MacDonalds today, very few will eat at The Ivy in London, but I think we all know which is the reheated toxic crap and which is the top quality meal.

 

Hmm, reheated toxic crap. Maybe we should rename WoW to RTC.

 

But that is completely subjective. "Better" isn't something you can quantify. And it also doesn't automatically mean that the business or services with fewer customers is "better" - as a matter of fact as is often the case, it is not.

 

For WoW, I think the consumers got it right this time. The best product does indeed have the most customers.

 

Few would debate that WoW is mechanically superior in gameplay, systems and otherwise...