TheLastWolfman Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Hi OP et al, You and more specifically Tyraelium keep mentioning statistics. Out of curiousity could you explain what place you feel statistics have in this discussion? Regards Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardya Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) The time management side generally can respect players who have a good reason to "never give up". We understand that there are exceptions to every rule, and not to overgeneralize or deal in absolutes. But the "never give up" side can't seem to acknowledge mathematics and statistics because it would probably cause them too much cognitive dissonance. Some can concede that the reward rate is faster but many others are in denial. Majority of posters in this thread don't even read the thread title, or think that we're talking about when the score is 600-550 or something. That is because the "time management" side is turning a fun game into time management. If your goal is to manage time, the best course of action is to get 4 medals and then hide in a corner so the match ends as soon as possible. You should surrender all turrets ASAP after getting the 4 medals. Is this not true? If time managements was the ultimate goal, this is the optimum set-up. Time management is not the goal, that is why we try to win, the goal is fun and competition. People who quit the game are really just sore losers. They are just selfish and ruin the game for others. Edited March 27, 2012 by richardya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sziroten Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) Yeah I'm not sure how to argue w someone that will equate running Warzones to real life wartime combat and ignores logic and statistics for personal pride. Dude, you obvioulsy fail to realise that it's not about reward/ time. I'm sorry it is to you and for others. /golfclap for finding an obvious "fastest way" to get from point A to point B (as everybody can see in your signature) but for the majority (as people can see in this thread) it is about the way. For some it is about their status on the server. I won't recognize a cannon farmer waiting for his def medals but I will definately remember that "stupid" guy keeping our team from capping the last cannon. The other reason your logic has flaws is because you might understand that, giving up when it is unlikely (not impossible, the chess example is not valid for warzones except voidstar until 1.2 hits) as something different than someone else which sees, lvl 80 Valor tells to stop the fight when "I" don't see a chance and for this person it might be when it is 0-2 huttball, opposite team caps two cannons in the beginning.... and for these people, it is much better to believe that you can win at any time because these kind of people build the majority of your daily warzone casual players. Final Note: People "get" your point and people get OP's point, get over it, play the way you like but deal with the way other people play. Go with 7 other in premades when 1.2 hits the server and you can "chatter" about all the stupid people which cannot see that being 300 behind in civil war is "mathematical" impossible if you don't 3 cap. Edited March 27, 2012 by Sziroten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardya Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 you can "chatter" about all the stupid people which cannot see that being 300 behind in civil war is "mathematical" impossible if you don't 3 cap. I love when it is 5-0 and we prevent the 6-0 game. Pure pride and a small victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ch_Zero Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Hi OP et al, You and more specifically Tyraelium keep mentioning statistics. Out of curiousity could you explain what place you feel statistics have in this discussion? Regards Wolf I'll try to not be disrespectful, because I'll assume this is a serious question. But let's say for example the score is 400 empire and 90 republic. the empire cannot win the warzone unless they 3 cap, and hold it for the duration of the game. So what's the point in capping a single base to slow down and turtle the game? There is only 1 reason, for the individual players fun. For most people however this is not fun. That's why i use the term warzone troll and compare it to knifing in COD. Because when you have a premade with a PUG. What are the statistical chances you will 3 cap? 0.000001% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkDruidSS Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I love when it is 5-0 and we prevent the 6-0 game. Pure pride and a small victory. It's even better to finally get that 1 point. 6-1 loss is a victory to me if I can get that 1 point or help get that 1 point to prevent the shut out. Nothing makes me happier when I am pugging against a premade than to prevent that shut out. There are multiple reasons that keep me in the game even if we losing horribly. I might just want to be the best healer, defensive player or killer on our team depending on the role I am playing. If I can lose and still be in the top rankings for the team then I did my part. I can live with losing because I still get valor/exp/comms and the pride that I didn't let my team down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkDruidSS Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I'll try to not be disrespectful, because I'll assume this is a serious question. But let's say for example the score is 400 empire and 90 republic. the empire cannot win the warzone unless they 3 cap, and hold it for the duration of the game. So what's the point in capping a single base to slow down and turtle the game? There is only 1 reason, for the individual players fun. For most people however this is not fun. I want hard statics to prove this. Please conduct a survey of a global scale to prove your logic. Because just as Hardcore PvPers are the MINORITY in a MMO.. the people that actually care about their time management to the degree you are talking about are even far less. It's about having fun and like I said in a earlier post there are reasons you can find to have fun. Use this very thread as a platform to start your survey because the time management QQers are far less than the people that play to win and never give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richoshist Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I know this because I'm a pro. When you have to tell people you're a pro, you're just a wanna-be, son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) If you're a quitter when the odds look bad then you never get to do this... Game timed out because we were shortmanned. http://s12.postimage.org/l24o3jhcd/tmp.jpg Edited March 27, 2012 by Gyronamics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolfman Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) I'll try to not be disrespectful, because I'll assume this is a serious question. But let's say for example the score is 400 empire and 90 republic. the empire cannot win the warzone unless they 3 cap, and hold it for the duration of the game. So what's the point in capping a single base to slow down and turtle the game? There is only 1 reason, for the individual players fun. For most people however this is not fun. That's why i use the term warzone troll and compare it to knifing in COD. Because when you have a premade with a PUG. What are the statistical chances you will 3 cap? 0.000001% Hi OP, It is a serious question so thanks for taking it as such. Actually you cannot calculate a probability in this instance as you are dealing with human actions, not a random event. Mathematical probability really only applies to random occurences (dice rolls, coin flips etc.). With a score of 400 - 90 I agree it is unlikely you will be able to turn the tide and win, but you cannot put a % probability to it. That aside, whilst your argument has validity, you are unlikely to get what you wish as you are dealing with human emotion. Everyone plays games to generate an emotional response within themselves (pleasure, satisfaction, anger, etc.). As we each derive pleasure in subtly different ways, the way in which we play games differs from person to person. You are essentially asking others to lessen their own emotional experiences so that you can enhance yours. As such, that request is unlikely to succeed. On a rare occasion, asking a group of people to be selfless can work, for example a "Guys, I need to be out of here in 2 mins, we look like we have lost this could you help me out and let them cap that 3rd turret so I can finish this one quickly", may work. However you are essentially asking people to do that all the time. Logic and statistics have their places, however that place is not in this discussion as we are dealing with emotion. Regards Wolf Edited March 27, 2012 by TheLastWolfman typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyraelium Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I want hard statics to prove this. Please conduct a survey of a global scale to prove your logic. Because just as Hardcore PvPers are the MINORITY in a MMO.. the people that actually care about their time management to the degree you are talking about are even far less. It's about having fun and like I said in a earlier post there are reasons you can find to have fun. Use this very thread as a platform to start your survey because the time management QQers are far less than the people that play to win and never give up. Nobody is against having fun. You can stay in the losing game and have fun hoping your team will somehow hold 3 caps even though you haven't held 2 for the first 10 minutes of the match. If you find the whole "overcoming impossible odds" thing fun, fine. Go buy a lottery ticket. I play to win as many games as possible. If you are in a losing game (they beat you 2x:x, ie. 380-130), You can have fun by fighting off the node, let them 3 cap you, ensure your 4 medals, collect your rewards and requeue to engage in more PvP that will yield rewards (and fun!). You've already been PvPing in the first 10 minutes, directing your team with strategy. You've already tried, and failed. If you couldn't get a second node within 10 minutes, where did you find this idea that you could get 2 more and hold them for another the rest of the match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel_of_Cain Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I want hard statics to prove this. Please conduct a survey of a global scale to prove your logic. Because just as Hardcore PvPers are the MINORITY in a MMO.. the people that actually care about their time management to the degree you are talking about are even far less. It's about having fun and like I said in a earlier post there are reasons you can find to have fun. Use this very thread as a platform to start your survey because the time management QQers are far less than the people that play to win and never give up. Having fun in PvP and not grinding for gear????? How dare you!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flem Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 The funny thing is that the quitters have clearly never seen a big comeback 3-cap because, well, they've always quit/given up before their team could do it. So it seems literally impossible, which is only true when they're present... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkfinsix Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 ^ This. The "let them win" crowd needs to stop queuing. yup, sounds like the soccer parents who started a league where if the opposing team wins by too much they actually get credited for a lose. Love our modern day society loser gets all the cookies mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetOldBob Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Dude, i have voted you MVP a couple of times:D Any MVP votes give me such an endorphin rush! Two and I'm on the floor. I usually vote for healers; sometimes for leaders, sometimes for guys who save my bacon when I call "inc". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ch_Zero Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) hit the 10k views Congratulations ppl 30 pages too Edited March 27, 2012 by Ch_Zero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetOldBob Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 This is why i use the term warzone troll Daddy likes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ch_Zero Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Should rename this thread to Warzone troll vs The time managers no single person is safe from infamy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyraelium Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Hi OP, It is a serious question so thanks for taking it as such. Actually you cannot calculate a probability in this instance as you are dealing with human actions, not a random event. Mathematical probability really only applies to random occurences (dice rolls, coin flips etc.). With a score of 400 - 90 I agree it is unlikely you will be able to turn the tide and win, but you cannot put a % probability to it. That aside, whilst your argument has validity, you are unlikely to get what you wish as you are dealing with human emotion. Everyone plays games to generate an emotional response within themselves (pleasure, satisfaction, anger, etc.). As we each derive pleasure in subtly different ways, the way in which we play games differs from person to person. You are essentially asking others to lessen their own emotional experiences so that you can enhance yours. As such, that request is unlikely to succeed. On a rare occasion, asking a group of people to be selfless can work, for example a "Guys, I need to be out of here in 2 mins, we look like we have lost this could you help me out and let them cap that 3rd turret so I can finish this one quickly", may work. However you are essentially asking people to do that all the time. Logic and statistics have their places, however that place is not in this discussion as we are dealing with emotion. Regards Wolf For every 2-4 drawn out losses, you can play another entire warzone. Considering most of us play hundreds of Warzones per season, this amounts to a lot of time saved. Of the drawn out losses you play, you might actually succeed at winning 1/1000 due to errors made by opposing team. Server variation comes into play here because you would have to account for average skill level and queue times as well. The cost/benefit analysis for one game is something along the lines of: Receive same or similar valor/commendations while spending 5 extra minutes in the game. (-33% valor/comm rate) 1/1000 chance at getting ~500 extra valor and ~20 extra comms. The numbers are rough/made up obviously, but still relevant. Conduct your own research and determine for yourself whether or not the math works for you and your playstyle. I have had 2 full BM gear sets for a while, and haven't had the time to PvP much at all in the past month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pekish Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) Respect is over-rated... why should i respect someone that say something wrong if someone tell me 1+1=3 should i respect him because we are all good and all brother/sister? nowday people say the most stupid things and hide behind the words "respect my ideas" the false respect (or abuse of the word "respect" call it as u please) is making people more and more stupid Edited March 27, 2012 by Pekish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolfman Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) For every 2-4 drawn out losses, you can play another entire warzone. Considering most of us play hundreds of Warzones per season, this amounts to a lot of time saved. Of the drawn out losses you play, you might actually succeed at winning 1/1000 due to errors made by opposing team. Server variation comes into play here because you would have to account for average skill level and queue times as well. The cost/benefit analysis for one game is something along the lines of: Receive same or similar valor/commendations while spending 5 extra minutes in the game. (-33% valor/comm rate) 1/1000 chance at getting ~500 extra valor and ~20 extra comms. The numbers are rough/made up obviously, but still relevant. Conduct your own research and determine for yourself whether or not the math works for you and your playstyle. I have had 2 full BM gear sets for a while, and haven't had the time to PvP much at all in the past month. Hi Tyraelium, I am not arguing against you premise that not drawing out Warzones where you are unlikely to win is more time efficient for grinding valour and commendations. I am also not arguing that once you bring in a best estimate for win vs loss from a certain point, you can calculate a rough approximation of increased gain from faster loss time. I was merely pointing out that this is a logical theory and has nothing to do with statistics and cannot have a % probability assigned to it. Also, a logical theory, no matter how valid, will rarely if ever change peoples minds as you are dealing with their emotions. To take this one step further, if everyone approached this game from a pure logic point of view, there would never be any Warzones at all as both sides would weigh all of the factors available to them at the start of the match, construct an approximation of their chances of winning and then quit/fold before ever firing a shot So to summarise, by all means put forward your viewpoints on efficiency, and point out the merits of your logical theory, but at the same time accept the fact that many people will disagree with you as their emotional satisfaction is achieved by other means, and will NEVER be swayed by an appeal to logic as it is irrelavent to their gain. This doesn't make us noobs or stupid or ignorant of statistics and logic, it merely makes us different:). Regards Wolf Edited March 27, 2012 by TheLastWolfman typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ch_Zero Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Hi Tyraelium, I am not arguing against you premise that not drawing out Warzones where you are unlikely to win is more time efficient for grinding valour and commendations. I am also not arguing that once you bring in a best estimate for win vs loss from a certain point, you can calculate a rough approximation of increased gain from faster loss time. I was merely pointing out that this is a logical theory and has nothing to do with statistics and cannot have a % probability assigned to it. Also, a logical theory, no matter how valid, will rarely if ever change peoples minds as you are dealing with their emotions. To take this one step further, if everyone approached this game from a pure logic point of view, there would never be any Warzones at all as both sides would weigh all of the factors available to them at the start of the match, construct an approximation of their chances of winning and then quit/fold before ever firing a shot So to summarise, by all means put forward your viewpoints on efficiency, and point out the merits of your logical theory, but at the same time accept the fact that many people will disagree with you as their emotional satisfaction is achieved by other means, and will NEVER be swayed by an appeal to logic as it is irrelavent to their gain. This doesn't make us noobs or stupid or ignorant of statistics and logic, it merely makes us different:). Regards Wolf Appreciate the explanation but the real question is... Would you still cap against all odds? ;O or take a logical approach? <(0.0)> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkDruidSS Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Appreciate the explanation but the real question is... Would you still cap against all odds? ;O or take a logical approach? <(0.0)> If you are yelling to quit and give up. Yes, to spite you I would cap and to hope that you eventually quit so that I can win some games. Loser attitudes attract losing. Logical yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ch_Zero Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 If you are yelling to quit and give up. Yes, to spite you I would cap and to hope that you eventually quit so that I can win some games. Loser attitudes attract losing. Logical yes? stop trolling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolfman Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 but the real question is... Would you still cap against all odds? ;O or take a logical approach? <(0.0)> Hmmm, Does this answer your question? "Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee." Regards Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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