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1.2 Healer Change Q&A Response and Feedback


RuQu

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  1. It allows the Community to provide feedback on if the metric they use are proper metrics. There is a strong feeling in the Healer community that we are being designed and balanced by a DPSer who may not have a proper understanding of what it means to heal or be a healer.

This one in particular, would be helpful.

 

because right now, it feels like they are ONLY looking at pure numbers, rather than utility as well.

 

speaking from that perspective, I actually feel like the BH should be blowing the doors off every other healer, since we do not have a battle rez, we do not have a friendly pull to get them away from danger/aggro drop, we do not have stealth (though that's mostly useless, but at least it's SOMETHING).

 

we literally ONLY heal. so if we're not blowing all sorc / operatives away in performance, we should at least be getting greater utility?

 

that doesn't seem to be factoring into their number crunch right now.

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The fact that this is largely metrics driven is disconcerting; metrics mean absolutely nothing from a pvp perspective. Some fights, youre left alone to heal and can put out ridiculous numbers; other fights youre constantly under pressure and are lucky to have 30 percent of that same output.

 

If its about single heals in relation to dps, I cant see any metric possibly justifying the nerf -- especially since there is a 50 percent healing debuff....

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Look the DEV's may say we are brining everyone down to the intended level. I get the feeling he's referring to PVP, well screw PVP, I like PVE more. so this being said. Here is what is going to happen.

 

A.) We are nerfing healers so they are not as good in PVP so we can get more Kills.

 

B.) No One will want to heal PVP anymore (our server has major troubles getting healers now)

 

C.) PVE is dead and almost impossible

 

D.) Some healers will reroll too whoever turns out to be the best DPS. The hardcore healers will quit.

 

E.) PVE guilds and people will get bored and not play much anymore because there will be no healers around.

 

F.) Bioware will realize they have made a mistake and try to rebuff healers or change mechanics to save their dwindling subscriptions

 

G.) It will be too late GG Bioware you pulled a warhammer/vanguard/apb and become nonexistent or nonrelevant..

 

Maybe the morons at bioware should take a long look at their history of healer hating and either go into FPS games or Side scrollers. I'n the last 5 years of online mmo gaming I have never once been wrong in a prediction. If bioware releases 1.2 as it is now. its the shark jump and all downhill from here.

 

I urge you Bioware to not be so moronic and come up with a more workable solution. As it stands now you hardly even ever see anything but a sorc in major pve raids as healers. Now your saying your nerfing even the healer classes that suck. Wake up morons.

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This one in particular, would be helpful.

 

because right now, it feels like they are ONLY looking at pure numbers, rather than utility as well.

 

speaking from that perspective, I actually feel like the BH should be blowing the doors off every other healer, since we do not have a battle rez, we do not have a friendly pull to get them away from danger/aggro drop, we do not have stealth (though that's mostly useless, but at least it's SOMETHING).

 

we literally ONLY heal. so if we're not blowing all sorc / operatives away in performance, we should at least be getting greater utility?

 

that doesn't seem to be factoring into their number crunch right now.

 

An easy example of when HPS and similar numbers are meaningless that a healer would instantly grasp and a pew pew DPSer might overlook:

 

Pretend you have a game where dispels matter (ie most any game with debuffs and DoTs that isn't SWTOR).

 

When you cast a dispel or cleanse, you don't get the remaining damage of that DoT added to your healing meter. If it is an armor/healing reduction or % damage increase debuff, the game doesn't estimate the additional damage you just saved yourself having to heal and add it to your meter.

 

Healer A never cleanses, they just heal through it.

 

Healer B knows which debuffs matter and which don't, and cleanses everything important within 2s or less of it landing.

 

Who is the better healer? (Healer B)

Who has the higher numbers across almost any possible metric? (Healer A)

 

See the problem?

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Commandos:

Revert the heat changes. They are extremely punishing on new Commandos. Instead, adjust how Commandos scale. Currently Underworld Medicine (Scoundrel) and Medical Probe (Commando) heal for exactly the same, and for the same % resource cost. AP/MP combos cost the same as UWM/EMP, but AP is far stronger than EMP. Instead of punishing leveling and entry raiding Commandos, slow how fast we scale by decreasing the coefficients on Adv Probe and Preventative Medicine. These are also easier to re-tune if you feel you went too far or not far enough, or find they are over- or under-performing relative to other classes at later levels of content.

 

Restore SCC functionality. The meaningful choices during this short uptime were what made healing on a Commando interesting and the ability to use it well separated a decent Commando from a great one. Nerfing this ability decreases the reward for skill. If the Kolto Bomb DR shield was problematic with more than one Commando, make it so that a person can only benefit from one, and the second one cast merely refreshes the duration.

 

Weaken base heals, buff SCC. SCC is the defining ability of the Commando/Merc healing style. Using it well rewards skill, and differentiates players. Nerfing it simplifies the class and increases homogenization between classes. SCC has a max of 40% uptime (10s duration, 15 to rebuild 30 CSC charges). Instead of nerfing SCC by 5%, nerf the main heals by ~8% and buff SCC to a 15% bonus. Adjust those numbers as necessary to hit the right benchmarks, but keep the style intact.

 

 

General Suggestion:

If resource management is a problem, adjust boss HP and enrage timers so that healers need to do ~25% of the DPS that a dedicated DPS player does in order to make the timer. This would require more ability usage, decrease downtime, and, most importantly, reward skillful play and make for more interesting healer gameplay than just whack-a-mole.

 

Well, I haven't posted anything for months, but this finally got me to come out and speak up.

 

Thanks for saying exactly what I was feeling. I feel that smart players that know their class and use a good rotation are rewarded by using SCC. These changes seem to just dumb it down and make it almost useless.

I also like the suggestion to only have Kolto Bomb damage reduction apply once per person instead of being able to stack.

 

The general population seems to believe that Sorc AOE heal is needed for pretty much all end game content. Being a Merc Healer and a Raid Leader for my guild, I have been able to prove that 2 Merc healers can handle the HM Operations. For the most part though, everyone believes that Sorc healers are needed for that AOE.

One of my Merc healer friends was removed from a HM SOA Pug group because they said they needed a Sorc Healer. Yes, they were wrong, but that only demonstrates the general perception that Merc healers are inferior to Sorc healers.

 

Also, specifically Jarg & Sorno is a really hard fight in HM/Nightmare. I have The Infernal title on my Merc healer and consider myself pretty good (don't ask why I don't have Unyielding). I seriously don't see us beating Jarg & Sorno in Nightmare with only 1 medpack and the nerfs to healing that are coming. My heat management is going to end up biting me in the end.

People tend to take big spike damage in that fight and large quick heals are needed.

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An easy example of when HPS and similar numbers are meaningless that a healer would instantly grasp and a pew pew DPSer might overlook:

 

Pretend you have a game where dispels matter (ie most any game with debuffs and DoTs that isn't SWTOR).

 

When you cast a dispel or cleanse, you don't get the remaining damage of that DoT added to your healing meter. If it is an armor/healing reduction or % damage increase debuff, the game doesn't estimate the additional damage you just saved yourself having to heal and add it to your meter.

 

Healer A never cleanses, they just heal through it.

 

Healer B knows which debuffs matter and which don't, and cleanses everything important within 2s or less of it landing.

 

Who is the better healer? (Healer B)

Who has the higher numbers across almost any possible metric? (Healer A)

 

See the problem?

 

Except BW has further removed skill-based play in making the major debuff -- healing debuffs -- uncleansable. Except for a few agent/sniper debuffs, there arent any worth cleansing post 1.2.

 

Its not just pve they are dumbing down with the nerf to SCC, its pvp too.

Edited by Bluetickone
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Except BW has further removed skill-based play in making the major debuff -- healing debuffs -- uncleansable. Except for a few agent/sniper debuffs, there arent any worth cleansing post 1.2.

 

Its not just pve they are dumbing down with the nerf to SCC, its pvp too.

 

Agreed. That's why I specifically said you'd have to look at a game that wasn't TOR for the debuff cleansing to make sense, they are too trivial in this game for it to matter.

 

It does a good job of illustrating how utility can offset the need for healing. For instance, using Rescue to pull someone out of fire means you don't need to heal that fire damage.

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This one in particular, would be helpful.

 

because right now, it feels like they are ONLY looking at pure numbers, rather than utility as well.

 

speaking from that perspective, I actually feel like the BH should be blowing the doors off every other healer, since we do not have a battle rez, we do not have a friendly pull to get them away from danger/aggro drop, we do not have stealth (though that's mostly useless, but at least it's SOMETHING).

 

we literally ONLY heal. so if we're not blowing all sorc / operatives away in performance, we should at least be getting greater utility?

 

that doesn't seem to be factoring into their number crunch right now.

 

I see what you mean, but again, there's a bit of grass is greener to what you're saying. Stealth doesn't really help heal, and a battle rez is nice, but situational--better to not NEED that in the first place...especially if its your lower healing output that causes it to be needed.

 

What I think is happening is that they are not sure how to quantify the utility skills they created for Sage/Sorc, and are perhaps over-valuing the "defensive utility" of the heavier armor classes, as well as abilities like stealth, or the ability to deal damage at range, versus in melee.

 

It's not just the developers either--players frequently create strategies that minimize the useufulnesss of these things, even when they might actually be useful. Take a look at the tank forums--there's a few posts where they compalin about "stupid" healers who want to be in melee range...even though on many fights, there's actually no more damage there, then not. Now granted, in OPS situations quite often melee range IS bad, but the point is, people get used to making up strategy that fits ONE set of healing tools, and then the classes without that are out of luck, so any differences in healing out put matter all the more.

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What I think is happening is that they are not sure how to quantify the utility skills they created for Sage/Sorc, and are perhaps over-valuing the "defensive utility" of the heavier armor classes, as well as abilities like stealth, or the ability to deal damage at range, versus in melee.

 

Yes, 1000x yes. Thank you for getting this so right; I've written literal chapters worth of posts trying to say just this.

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Support your healers!

 

I general re balancing of some things is ok to make a few drastic changes isn't.

 

Having played a MERC healer and knowing most of the community would replace us with a SORC in a second it's funny to me to hear we are over performing in content. I cant even get people to believe we can heal in the first place even when carrying a run.

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Healer B knows which debuffs matter and which don't, and cleanses everything important within 2s or less of it landing.

 

Who is the better healer? (Healer B)

Who has the higher numbers across almost any possible metric? (Healer A)

 

See the problem?

Dispels can almost always be handled by metrics. I remember in my WoW days I would call out Mages for failing to decurse on my Druid. <3 Recount. You could tell a lot of things from combat logged data. However things like Lifegrips are a bit iffy and the usefulness of off healing would require you to pretty much go through the combat log line by line.

Edited by Soshla
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Dispels can almost always be handled by metrics. I remember in my WoW days I would call out Mages for failing to decurse on my Druid. <3 Recount. You could tell a lot of things from combat logged data. However things like Lifegrips are a bit iffy and the usefulness of off healing would require you to pretty much go through the combat log line by line.

 

For a long time Mages were the only ones who could cleanse curses if I remember right. Maybe it was Mages and Priests.

 

If you are tracking HPS metrics, and you see player A healed for 1000 HPS, and player B healed for 800 HPS but had 20 dispels, which class is OP? Was that a fight where A knew their dispel didn't work, or was A just the "heal through it" type? Was B dispelling things that didn't matter and forcing A to pick up the slack?

 

You can't just say that dispels take 1.5s, then multiply 1.5*dispel_count*avg_hpct/fight_length to get an equivalent HPS. It is a guess, but it completely misses the differences in resources between dispels (1 Ammo) and real heals (3 Ammo) and the effect of resource management on healing. Plus, a dispel may prevent more damage than a single heal would have covered. How do you account for that? I'm not saying its impossible, only that I don't see a way to do it with any reasonable ease, and I highly doubt that BW is properly accounting for it.

 

Perhaps you could track the damage left on the DoT and credit that to the person who cast dispel. For vulnerabilities, you could take the average DPS the target took in the past 10s of combat, factor in the vulnerability damage increase, and attribute that. Certainly non-trivial, though, and requires information that the logs don't give us.

 

Saying "you should dispel more" is very different from factoring the dispels themselves into the healing meter.

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For a long time Mages were the only ones who could cleanse curses if I remember right. Maybe it was Mages and Priests.

 

Priests and paladins can and have always been able to remove magic effects. Same thing for druids and mages with curses. Priests have never been able to remove curses. But, as a mage, I'd like to point out that it's usually easier for healers to see and remove curses. I have an 85 resto druid so I can say that.

 

You can't just say that dispels take 1.5s, then multiply 1.5*dispel_count*avg_hpct/fight_length to get an equivalent HPS. It is a guess, but it completely misses the differences in resources between dispels (1 Ammo) and real heals (3 Ammo) and the effect of resource management on healing. Plus, a dispel may prevent more damage than a single heal would have covered. How do you account for that? I'm not saying its impossible, only that I don't see a way to do it with any reasonable ease, and I highly doubt that BW is properly accounting for it.

 

Perhaps you could track the damage left on the DoT and credit that to the person who cast dispel. For vulnerabilities, you could take the average DPS the target took in the past 10s of combat, factor in the vulnerability damage increase, and attribute that. Certainly non-trivial, though, and requires information that the logs don't give us.

 

Saying "you should dispel more" is very different from factoring the dispels themselves into the healing meter.

 

In WoW, at least, in some cases dispeling quickly was the wrong thing to do because of detonation effects or jumping curses. I remember explaining the Lich King fight to a pug, which has an effect like that, and someone complained that it was really complicated. I had to laugh, because obviously they never raided in BC. Lady Vashj and Kael'thas blow Arthas out of the water, and they weren't even the final boss of an expansion.

 

There's definitely a lot of room for improvement in the dispels category in this game.

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But, as a mage, I'd like to point out that it's usually easier for healers to see and remove curses. I have an 85 resto druid so I can say that.

Utter nonsense. My moonkin was perfectly capable of removing curses (though for some entirely stupid reason not poisons). With appropriate raiding mods, anyone can remove curses easily. And it's much less likely in 99% of fights with dispel mechanics that a momentary lull in DPS will lead to another death as compared to a lull in healing. Which is why in my raiding guild, it was prioritized that DPS should dispel, battle rez, etc.

 

(I've raided on all healing classes, as well as a DPS Mage and Moonkin, so I can say that)

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Hmmm... Dispels/cleanses...

 

Sounds like an additional fight mechanic that could be used to make encounters more challenging and lower healer through put without a nerf.

 

Are ya paying attention Bioware?

 

EDIT: I know, I know... that was a complete troll. I just couldn't help myself...

Edited by wrotruck
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Utter nonsense. My moonkin was perfectly capable of removing curses (though for some entirely stupid reason not poisons). With appropriate raiding mods, anyone can remove curses easily. And it's much less likely in 99% of fights with dispel mechanics that a momentary lull in DPS will lead to another death as compared to a lull in healing. Which is why in my raiding guild, it was prioritized that DPS should dispel, battle rez, etc.

 

(I've raided on all healing classes, as well as a DPS Mage and Moonkin, so I can say that)

 

Meh. I'm a firm believer in killing bosses as quickly as possible. Unless you're dealing with a raid-wide debuff, you're always better off letting the healers deal with decursing assuming you have the appropriate healing classes. Unless your healers are bad, people die from mistakes, not lack of healing. Killing the boss faster prevents that. Not asking the dps to split their attention also helps prevent that.

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Force Management

With regard to force management the same is true. I think that a lot of players were quite looking forward to having to manage their force more closely. I know that I was - but it's a question of
how
that is done. I asked this question in
and came up with some design guidelines. Broadly speaking, you need:

 

1) a rotation at medium healing power that is broadly force neutral (or just a small negative, that gives a slow steady overall drain)

 

2) you need the ability to heal at high power for a period of time which should be a massive drain on force. The limiter should be the size of your force pool - not the speed of your heals.

 

3) you need a long duration large force regain ability on a longer cool-down, so that you can recover from occasional bursts - but the CD restricts how often you're able to do that.

 

Somebody pointed out to me that this is essentially what resource management for the other healers looks like. In fact, it looks quite a lot like the resource management of quite a few healing classes, in games where healers have to worry about resources. Classically - you'd have a fairly neutral (or slightly negative) healing rotation and when you slap out a burst you hit a long CD mana potion (or ability) to recover a bit. But variations on the same theme pop up all over MMOs.

 

When you do have healers with a 'sacrifice' ability to regain mana, then they're often HoT focussed, with lots of quick casting abilities, so that they have the time and ability to regain while still laying down big heals across targets... or they have damage attacks that return force (as other specs in the Sage tree do) and the sacrifice is really only used in extremis.

 

In the end, it looks like the slower, more single-target focussed healing in 1.2 is making Sages/Sorcs on PTS report that force management is still not really an issue. The slowness of casting the big heals also limits the ability of the class to deliver big bursts. So the original goal isn't really achieved, but the game-play of the class is heavily reduced.

 

 

 

The funny thing is, as a Sorcerer (Consular), this model is currently in game.

 

If I follow the rotation of:

 

Resurge -> Innervate -> Dark Infusion -> Consumption -> Resurge -> Revivification -> Innervate -> Consumption -> etc etc

 

I can cast all day long and only once in a while have to cast a second consumption to maintain my force pool. That is the Force Neutral, slow draining rotation for a Sorcerer

 

If the tank is taking spike damage,

 

Static Barrier -> Resurge -> Dark Infusion -> Dark Infusion -> Consumption Repeat

 

My force pool is going to drain REALLY quickly

 

I also agree on number 3. We as Sorcerers and Consulars do lack an oh crap I need force button because without force we are useless, since our "auto attack" being in melee range. An issue that no other healing class has to deal with.

 

My main Sorcerer / Consular issues with 1.2 are following:

1) The developers are completely changing the itimization of everything.

 

2) They're drastically changing the playstyle of healers and consulars. And with all of the other changes, they will never know what issue they changed will affect what. What I recommend they do is fix the double cast exploit and adjust from there. Not radically change the playstyle due to players whining. Use those "Metrics" you're always talking about, but use them in a steady consistent manner.

 

3) As it stands right now, a Sorcerer or Consular will hardly ever get a full cast off in PvP. Not that I play much PvP, but that is still an issue that needs to be addressed because a lot of people do.

 

Due to those things, I have canceled my sub due to these healer nerfs and I told them that was the reason. I have a month left on my time and if they make changes and progress I'll resub, but if not I probably won't be here for 1.2.

Edited by Maglen
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Sounds like an additional fight mechanic that could be used to make encounters more challenging and lower healer through put without a nerf.

 

Are you suggesting they should try to make it challenging and fun to heal!!??

 

I need to try the patch before I go all RAGE QQ, but if what I see being reported here goes live I shalt spend my time elsewhere. PvE healing in TOR is boring enough as it is, and I am a Sage (really feel for the rest of you). Things is. I can not understand how anyone with a brain can justify taking two healing classes down to the one we all agree are under performing and lacking of tools, instead of buffing that one class up. If it's about healing numbers, fine. Nerf them. I can work around that. But to be forced into a strict rotation of two-three spells.. come on! Leave that **** in 2006 where it belongs!

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I also agree on number 3. We as Sorcerers and Consulars do lack an oh crap I need force button because without force we are useless, since our "auto attack" relies on Strength (a tertiary stat) and being in melee range. An issue that no other healing class has to deal with.

 

Yeah, my assassin has to itemize for strength so her base melee attack will do damage.... oh wait. She doesn't.

 

Inquisitor melee is based on willpower. I know it's been since level 10 since you last bothered swinging that fancy glowstick, but try to know how your class works. And before you cry about melee, try to remember that all operative utility is melee range. You don't have a free heal because you don't need one.

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Yeah, my assassin has to itemize for strength so her base melee attack will do damage.... oh wait. She doesn't.

 

Inquisitor melee is based on willpower. I know it's been since level 10 since you last bothered swinging that fancy glowstick, but try to know how your class works. And before you cry about melee, try to remember that all operative utility is melee range. You don't have a free heal because you don't need one.

 

No reason to be rude.

 

Shows how much I swing my melee lightsaber doesn't it? But the point still remains of why as a ranged class is my no resource cost spammable ability a melee ability? Operatives get Rifle Shots; ranged, Bounty Hunters get Rapid Shots; ranged, Inquisitors get Saber Strike; Melee. That's what I was getting at. I also find it kind of funny that of my whole post, you find that one thing to nitpick at. That's ok, I changed it.

 

And I never asked for a free heal. What I was agreeing on with someone else, is that it would be nice to have a long CD ability that would generate a moderate amount of force akin to the BH Vent Heat ability.

Edited by Maglen
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Yeah, my assassin has to itemize for strength so her base melee attack will do damage.... oh wait. She doesn't.

 

Inquisitor melee is based on willpower. I know it's been since level 10 since you last bothered swinging that fancy glowstick, but try to know how your class works. And before you cry about melee, try to remember that all operative utility is melee range. You don't have a free heal because you don't need one.

 

Hey buddy... I don't swing my "super fancy glowing stat stick." It's far to pretty to get dirty and if it gets near a bad guy it might get a smudge!!! I always have to clean it after I block the laser bolts, can you imagine the mess a bad guy would make?!?!?!?! :eek:

 

You melee types and your "whack them with a stick" mentality... Sheesh! :p:D;)

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And I never asked for a free heal. What I was agreeing on with someone else, is that it would be nice to have a long CD ability that would generate a moderate amount of force akin to the BH Vent Heat ability.

the mechanics of the classes are totally different. BH/Commandos resource regen is exponential, which is also why this nerf hit us super hard.

 

we can't exceed 40 heat except in dire emergency, or else our regen drops to nil, and you're useless for the next 10 seconds. our vent heat is our once every 2 minute emergency save.

 

it's interesting to hear a sorc talk about what other classes have, that they do not.. :rolleyes:

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And I never asked for a free heal. What I was agreeing on with someone else, is that it would be nice to have a long CD ability that would generate a moderate amount of force akin to the BH Vent Heat ability.

 

because you don't regenerate 2force/sec when you are low on force. and because your pool allows for something close to 13? base heals, as opposed to 4.

 

the base 2resource/sec that merc's/oper regenerate when low on their resource means that they need 12.5sec to cast a SINLE heal. even when you are at 0 force you need only 6secs to cast your main heal.

 

you also have a somewhat fast way to gain a bit more force, each consumtion is nearly 1 heal.

 

 

ofc, you cannot compare the different mechanics so simplistic, but in a few words, if you had a cd that would give you force it would need to be something akin to:

cd 2min, grants 100force.

and even that would be op compared to how force works compared to energy/heat

Edited by Shroudveil
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because you don't regenerate 2force/sec when you are low on force. and because your pool allows for something close to 13? base heals, as opposed to 4.

 

the base 2resource/sec that merc's/oper regenerate when low on their resource means that they need 12.5sec to cast a SINLE heal. even when you are at 0 force you need only 6secs to cast your main heal.

 

you also have a somewhat fast way to gain a bit more force, each consumtion is nearly 1 heal.

 

 

ofc, you cannot compare the different mechanics so simplistic, but in a few words, if you had a cd that would give you force it would need to be something akin to:

cd 2min, grants 100force.

and even that would be op compared to how force works compared to energy/heat

 

I am a noob when it comes to BH heat dissipation but from a simple google search I found:

 

From 0-39% heat, you'll be dissipating 5 points of Heat every second. From 40%-79% you're dissipating 3 heat per second. From 80%-100% heat, you'll only be dissipating 2 points of Heat every second.

 

Analyzing those numbers you have a reduction of 5% of total heat under 40%, 3% from 40-79% and 2% from 80-100%

 

Guess what the standard Inquisitor regeneration rate is?

1.33% without the 4 piece bonus and it's even LOWER if you have the 4 piece bonus (+50 Force) of 1.23%. Our force is based on actively casting Consumption, as it stands right now not losing health based on Innervate crits allows us to cast consumption more often and thus increase our force regeneration rate.

 

But we have to actively cast it, meaning less healing to the raid due to using a GCD on it. I know everyone likes to dump on the Sorc / Sage healers, but there are things not a lot of people are willing to admit and shortcomings that do occur.

 

If the nerf causing comsumption to always take hp from us, it has been mathematically proven that we would be a burden to the raids due to our constantly dropping health pools. It is not a good a good model for a healer to have to be killing themselves in order to heal others.

 

Sure every once in a while I get massive healing in a Void Star. Want to know why? People are able to sit in my AoE heal and I'm ignored, if not, I'm squishy and spend a lot of time in the time out box. See those big numbers in a Civil War? Guess what, I had a tank Guarding me and taunting people. Anyone can post a screen shot of OP Sorc Heals, but look at how many deaths they had. If left to free cast a healer can change the tide of battle, but if focused on smartly, a Sorcerer healers output drops exponentially.

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