Hold the Tanksins, please.

[Migrayn]

this entire thread is making me laugh. The other tanks are much more durable due to higher armor. Sins get higher shield chance which sucks in pvp. The other 2 tanks have very good defensive cooldowns and can just walk all the way to huttball end zone. They can walk right through the fire with the ball.

 

They can also spec for some damage along with their armor. They hit almost as hard and have just as much sustained damage. Sins might burst a little higher but they are not as defensive as the other 2.

 

Mauraders and jugs scare my operative way more then a tankasin. I can open up on a maurader at half health and he just eats my dmg then kills me. Juggs pretty much the same way. They leap to me when i open on a sorc and they choke me to death.

 

So many tankasins think they are invinsable so they play sloppy when my operative attacks. This usually lets me get the upper hand easier. Their shield doesnt block any of my tech attacks and the lower armor compared.to the other too means i can hig them harder.

[Astarica]

Hmm, mine crits for 1.2k per swing (that is 2.4k per GCD for those following along at home). About same DPS any spammable proc finder on other classes.

 

Saber Strike has a much higher DPF.

 

And since when has other classes consistently kill people with spammable basic attacks?

 

Consider Thrash is absolutely nothing special compared to any other spammable basic attacks other classes get, if you say your Thrash kills people that's like saying an Operative can kill people by spamming Overload Shot.

 

Even Tracer Missiles, clearly the most powerful spammable basic attack in the game, doesn't do the kind of damage people claim lesser attacks can do.

[Astarica]

So many tankasins think they are invinsable so they play sloppy when my operative attacks. This usually lets me get the upper hand easier. Their shield doesnt block any of my tech attacks and the lower armor compared.to the other too means i can hig them harder.

 

The only way an Operative is beating a Tankasin is if they decided your class is a joke and isn't worth wasting the CD on Force Shroud which completely destroys your class.

[Jo-Han]

Because Tankasins don't die often it's rare they'd have a reason to consider retreat.

 

Honestly Tankasins and Marauders should just do a secret handshake and leave each other alone. It's a pain trying to kill a Marauder but I'm sure a Marauder hates fighting a Tankasin too. Neither can just leave the other alone since if they get the jump you'll definitely lose. Part of the reason why people don't think Marauders and Tankasin are that overpowered is because those two classes spend a lot of their time trying to kill each other and thus canceling each other out.

 

I dont agree. A marauder doesnt stand a chance against an equally skilled and geared shadow. The fight is so loopsided its not even funny.

[Tempsticks]

Three things have to be true for this to happen:

 

1. He is using a generator, thus no shield. ie Not nearly as tanky.

2. He popped adrenals. All of them.

3. Hitting low-armor and low-expertise target.

 

Yes that's 8k in one GCD. What follows this? What came before this? How much force does the shadow have left?

 

Are the answers "two hits under 1k", "two hits under 1k", and "10% - 25% of his total force"?

 

I can assure you that what a Powertech or operative can do with these same conditions is much more impressive, and they can sustain this level of damage longer.

 

The damage by itself isn't the issue, it's the damage + the cc + the survivability + the utility that having a tough bastard with stealth and a vanish brings.

[Astarica]

I dont agree. A marauder doesnt stand a chance against an equally skilled and geared shadow. The fight is so loopsided its not even funny.

 

Even with the nerf to Force Camo in 1.2 I don't see this fight ever becoming lopsided. Right now against equal level gear+skill Marauder it's usually whoever gets the jump wins, and if no one gets the jump the Assassin might have a slight advantage if you countered the Marauder's CDs perfectly (CC for Undying Rage, Force Shroud for Force Camo). The nerf to Force Camo means you no longer need to counter Marauder's CDs perfectly but they'll still be a significant threat.

[Tyraelium]

Even with the nerf to Force Camo in 1.2 I don't see this fight ever becoming lopsided. Right now against equal level gear+skill Marauder it's usually whoever gets the jump wins, and if no one gets the jump the Assassin might have a slight advantage if you countered the Marauder's CDs perfectly (CC for Undying Rage, Force Shroud for Force Camo). The nerf to Force Camo means you no longer need to counter Marauder's CDs perfectly but they'll still be a significant threat.

 

I have dueled countless Marauders on my server (high ranked ones, fully BM geared ones, mixed -- not just randoms) and have never lost. The only way a darkness sin loses to a marauder is if he uses all his midrange abilities while trading blows with the marauder.

 

Marauders are so easy to kite its a joke.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Tyraelium

[Tempsticks]

Even with the nerf to Force Camo in 1.2 I don't see this fight ever becoming lopsided. Right now against equal level gear+skill Marauder it's usually whoever gets the jump wins, and if no one gets the jump the Assassin might have a slight advantage if you countered the Marauder's CDs perfectly (CC for Undying Rage, Force Shroud for Force Camo). The nerf to Force Camo means you no longer need to counter Marauder's CDs perfectly but they'll still be a significant threat.

 

All I would do on a Tanksin if I wanted to beat a Marauder would be force sprint around a corner after cloak of pain or use electrocute and wait out 2 seconds of dps until it wears off, if you can cc and wait out cloak of pain I don't really see how'd you lose on a Tanksin, especially if you use a shield generator. If you save kick/vanish for undying rage or just pop deflection then they're dead in the water.

[Astarica]

I have dueled countless Marauders on my server (high ranked ones, fully BM geared ones, mixed -- not just randoms) and have never lost. The only way a darkness sin loses to a marauder is if he uses all his midrange abilities while trading blows with the marauder.

 

Marauders are so easy to kite its a joke.

 

Darkness Assassin pretty much beat anyone if you're prepared for it. But in WZs you're not always perfectly prepared. If a Marauder manages to walk up to you in melee range because you're chasing a healer, then it's at least an even fight from that point.

[Okamakiri]

I have dueled countless Marauders on my server (high ranked ones, fully BM geared ones, mixed -- not just randoms) and have never lost. The only way a darkness sin loses to a marauder is if he uses all his midrange abilities while trading blows with the marauder.

 

Marauders are so easy to kite its a joke.

 

You must have some terrible maras on your server, or none of them are anni spec... or both. (Hint: anni spec puts charge on 12s cd and no min range). I've never had any class successfully kite me on my mara. The only class that I have a hard time maintaining DPS time on is a well played sniper/gunslinger.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Okamakiri

[Tyraelium]

You must have some terrible maras on your server, or none of them are anni spec... or both. (Hint: anni spec puts charge on 12s cd and no min range). I've never had any class successfully kite me on my mara. The only class that I have a hard time maintaining DPS time on is a well played sniper/gunslinger.

 

Well I would love to duel you and then afterwards one of us cant say "I've never..." anymore

 

There were Annihilation spec'd ones for sure, as that spec is highly popular to play. The short charges help but are easily countered with sprint (20s cooldown and removes all slow/root effects).

[Astarica]

Well I would love to duel you and then afterwards one of us cant say "I've never..." anymore

 

There were Annihilation spec'd ones for sure, as that spec is highly popular to play. The short charges help but are easily countered with sprint (20s cooldown and removes all slow/root effects).

 

There's a reason why Marauders like to patrol the side areas in Huttball, since that area is flat but narrow enough so that it's actually hard to maintain LoS and 10m distance when trying to kite. In open ground, Darkness can pretty much kite anybody but classes can still sneak up to you if you're simply chasing/attacking someone else.

[Jo-Han]

Well I would love to duel you and then afterwards one of us cant say "I've never..." anymore

 

There were Annihilation spec'd ones for sure, as that spec is highly popular to play. The short charges help but are easily countered with sprint (20s cooldown and removes all slow/root effects).

 

A shadow dont even need the sprint. They have all the tools beating a marauder without it. A marauders so called "great defensive cooldowns" are so easily countered. And since a shadow can cleanse dots they will easily survive the initial dot burst from a marauder.

 

Marauder have no advantage what so ever on a shadow. I have fought countless sentinels with my assassins and almost as many shadow tanks with my marauder and the outcome is almost always the same. The shadow/assassin will dominate the sentinel/marauder. It might take some time, but the outcome is inevitable.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Jo-Han

[Migey]

Tanksin is very good, but anybody who says that the dps of Deception is worse then Darkness dps can't play very well. While at the moment, in terms of survivability and utility, Darkness has more recomending it, also having decent dps, Deception certainly does have some utility and better dps and burst when played well.

[Okamakiri]

Well I would love to duel you and then afterwards one of us cant say "I've never..." anymore

 

There were Annihilation spec'd ones for sure, as that spec is highly popular to play. The short charges help but are easily countered with sprint (20s cooldown and removes all slow/root effects).

 

I play a tankassin as a main, so I know sprint and knockback on 20s CDs are good counters to charge. However, there is also Force Choke, Predation, Force Camo, Intimidating Roar to counter sprint. Rage spec also gets another gap closer with Obliterate. If the fight is not over by the time the mara has exhausted all those CDs, then yes, the fight would be in favor of the sin. Until then, given equally geared and skilled players, I'd say it could go either way, with RNG as always playing a factor as well. Does the sin have strong tools for kiting a mara? Certainly, but I don't agree that it's a joke as you put it. Anyway, we could theorycraft back and forth all day, but as Astarica said, who gets the opener plays a big factor as well (in that sense, I can see how you would have an advantage in an arranged duel... but I look at it more from a viewpoint of 1vs1 in WZs, where terrain is part of the strategy).

[Scoobings]

Tanksin is very good, but anybody who says that the dps of Deception is worse then Darkness dps can't play very well. While at the moment, in terms of survivability and utility, Darkness has more recomending it, also having decent dps, Deception certainly does have some utility and better dps and burst when played well.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a terrible assassin, as it's my alt and not even above level 20 yet. I'm going off info told to me. My understanding was that deception DPS had very little burst, but it could just be that they meant it wasn't enough to compensate for how squishy it is. My lack of knowledge about deception stems purely from the fact that I never see any deception assassins. /shrug

 

Either way you slice it, deception needs a buff imo

Edited March 23, 2012 by Scoobings

[Tyraelium]

I usually save my 2min CC break for Force Choke, and Marauders usually use Force Camo to break my 3stack Force Lightning cast. I have seen some use Force Camo / Predation offensively but it never changes the tide of the battle. When a Marauder pops his defensive cooldowns I usually stun and run or simply vanish and sap.

 

edit: Most often I see Marauders using Intim Roar to stop a second 3stack FL cast, but either way, this ability doesn't require a response from me. Breaks on damage doesn't it?

 

Yeah we can go back n forth theorycrafting each other, but if it means anything, I have dueled in a wide variety of places that include elevation differences as well as pillars to line of sight, and short hallways with little cover. Went on quite a rampage looking for "mini arena maps". Result is the same every time

Edited March 23, 2012 by Tyraelium

[Scoobings]

I play a tankassin as a main, so I know sprint and knockback on 20s CDs are good counters to charge. However, there is also Force Choke, Predation, Force Camo, Intimidating Roar to counter sprint. Rage spec also gets another gap closer with Obliterate. If the fight is not over by the time the mara has exhausted all those CDs, then yes, the fight would be in favor of the sin. Until then, given equally geared and skilled players, I'd say it could go either way, with RNG as always playing a factor as well. Does the sin have strong tools for kiting a mara? Certainly, but I don't agree that it's a joke as you put it. Anyway, we could theorycraft back and forth all day, but as Astarica said, who gets the opener plays a big factor as well (in that sense, I can see how you would have an advantage in an arranged duel... but I look at it more from a viewpoint of 1vs1 in WZs, where terrain is part of the strategy).

 

Until obliterate gets it's root it's relatively uselss as a gap closer sadly It has a short range and you actually move pretty slow with obliterate. The only thing it's useful for in terms of mobility is jumping up ledges where people are right above you (the ledge by the air jets in huttball for example).

[Surgin]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a terrible assassin, as it's my alt and not even above level 20 yet. I'm going off info told to me. My understanding was that deception DPS had very little burst, but it could just be that they meant it wasn't enough to compensate for how squishy it is. /shrug

 

Either way you slice it, deception needs a buff imo

 

Deception sins are very gear dependent and I mean VERY, I played deception from 1-50 and only recently switched after seeing they didnt do anything for us in the 1.2 patch notes. Deception sins in warzones are frankly the selfish way to play given darkness offers a lot more to a group setting than deception could ever dream of.

 

A deception sin is just like an OP they are good at one thing, burst, aside from that nothing else the only difference is OPs are front end burst and deception is back end.

[Jo-Han]

I play a tankassin as a main, so I know sprint and knockback on 20s CDs are good counters to charge. However, there is also Force Choke, Predation, Force Camo, Intimidating Roar to counter sprint. Rage spec also gets another gap closer with Obliterate. If the fight is not over by the time the mara has exhausted all those CDs, then yes, the fight would be in favor of the sin. Until then, given equally geared and skilled players, I'd say it could go either way, with RNG as always playing a factor as well. Does the sin have strong tools for kiting a mara? Certainly, but I don't agree that it's a joke as you put it. Anyway, we could theorycraft back and forth all day, but as Astarica said, who gets the opener plays a big factor as well (in that sense, I can see how you would have an advantage in an arranged duel... but I look at it more from a viewpoint of 1vs1 in WZs, where terrain is part of the strategy).

 

They often dont even need to kite. Their defences are more than a match for the marauders offensive. Marauders very much depend on Cloak of Pain for defenses (yes they have a lot of other defensive cooldowns as well, but they are not as powerful ad CoP) and its so easily countered. After CoP is gone, a marauder will be whittled down.

 

Also, if in a WZ, the odds are that some of a marauders defences are on CD when the fight starts. If so, its even more loopsided.

[kiroshei]

Ok. I used deception leveling from 1-50. Used deception queuing from valor 1-73. After joining a strictly pvp guild for rated warzones i realized how terrible deception is for teamplay. Sure i could 1v1 every class with the odd loss to maras/sents but for teamplay the spec is just terrible. I switched to a darkness spec while still using my full BM dps gear. I am now very viable for teamplay and with the force pull we become great assist for targets while also putting a guard on my mara teammate. Until bioware buff the deception spec i will play darkness. Put force pull on all 3 specs and that would be a buff enough for deception. This darkness burst debate is beyond silly. As deception i could destroy any healer. As darkness healers wont die unless i have an assist on the target. The dps between darkness and deception is pretty well identical overall but not burst wise. The only perk that darkness has is when bads group up and allow wither to hit multi targets. This whole thought that only bads go tanksin is beyond stupid. I know deception in and out for months. This spec is just more team based then deception. Edited March 23, 2012 by kiroshei

[Shiroikage]

I can assure you that what a Powertech or operative can do with these same conditions is much more impressive, and they can sustain this level of damage longer.

 

OT yes OP no!

Im even surprised you said the word sustained combined with the word Operative.

Only burst and even that is low and unreliable.

[Scoobings]

OT yes OP no!

Im even surprised you said the word sustained combined with the word Operative.

Only burst and even that is low and unreliable.

 

The fact that we're even comparing the dps of a tank to that of dps classes should indicate a problem yes?

[Tricky-Ha]

BioWare must be confused at the fact that all their Sorc's are telling them that their endgame gear sucks so BioWare sucks, yet, Sorc's are the most played class on SWTOR.

[ludlum]

Tanksin is very good, but anybody who says that the dps of Deception is worse then Darkness dps can't play very well. While at the moment, in terms of survivability and utility, Darkness has more recomending it, also having decent dps, Deception certainly does have some utility and better dps and burst when played well.

 

I have never played as darkness but I fair very well as deception spec.