1.2 is just more GEAR GRINDING BS!!!

[Ziegler]

I'm still playing the game and some things I even like, but you know what?.. I'm sad this guy is leaving. I'm sad he was disappointed. It makes me grief because I know that if more people feel like that and and feel like sharing, then get responses like in this thread, this game might die and I wouldn't like that, because I think it has potential.

 

-1

 

Dont mourn my leaving, and you cant have my stuff.

 

This game doesnt have potential, because of a few reasons.

 

EA is the biggest one

BW's lack of experience in making anything PVP

BW's lack of experience in making a MMO and feeling that reskinning WoW with a Starwars skin and voice acting would be enough.

 

To me, there are fundemental design decisions that I am not willing to wait to see if they feel like fixing or not. I tend to think they wont, because we begged and pleaded during developement to include them and we were blantantly ignored and/or derided. BW sowed their seeds....now is their reaping. My only regret is that this will insure nobody else can make a Starwars MMO for another decade.

[rebelscumbodybag]

ive seen worse grinds

[EnochThompson]

you are somewhat misinformed, you can buy starter blue pvp gear with credits, you will need to pvp to earn warzone commendations to get battlemaster gear.

 

Its still not a grind, currently going into a wz getting the daylies done takes roughly 2 weeks to 3 weeks for full champion. Freeking wow took months before getting decent end game gear. Not including the grinding for crafting material you had to do, this game you have companions doing your work for crafting material.

 

This game is by far the easiest to level crafting, levels, money, gear, all three of my toons with my companions have at least t2 for both dps and healing.

[Wrzaskun]

-1

 

Dont mourn my leaving, and you cant have my stuff.

 

I don't care about you in particular, you obviously made your decision. I am simply concerned about the bigger picture. And your opinion about the game design is your own.

[CaptainInsano]

It's mainly a kick in the nuts to Operative players who are forced to reroll to stay competitive. Now they have to grind another set of BM gear before they can jump into Ranked with their friends. I think most will just quit instead.

[Proppa]

The gear grind puts me off to be honest. I play to have Competative PVP. I could easily have BM gear by grinding, but it bores me. Gear disparity creates an uneven playing field so the challenge of competative PvP is null as the one with the best gear will always win (90% of the time).

 

I don't enjoy doing the same thing over and over (like PvE content), I LOVE to PvP which is why I played DAOC for 10 years, perhaps the reason they never took off like WoW was because it catered for players like myself who enjoyed skill based PvP, whereas most players couldn't deal without having their crutch.

 

The chances are, I'll pre-order GW2 as soon as its out and take part in the Beta's until its out. Sure you may say don't let the door hit me on the way out, but there's nothing wrong with enjoying PvP. I have fun killing players and being killed (when things are equal). But going up against full BM players in lesser gear is just tedious.

[Dayfax]

Nobody will do PvP unless there's a reward or incentive involved. In order to get the best gear you have to invest time.

 

Wrong. In "that other game," I once spent a solid 5 months running nothing but WSG. Every day. For hours.

 

I had the best gear available and "got" nothing out of that except some achievements and, well, a helluva lot of entertainment. I did it because I loved the map, loved my faction, and enjoyed CTF based games.

 

PvP isn't about gear. It is (or should be) about fun, well designed maps/games, and competition.

[Proppa]

It's mainly a kick in the nuts to Operative players who are forced to reroll to stay competitive. Now they have to grind another set of BM gear before they can jump into Ranked with their friends. I think most will just quit instead.

 

I'm leveling my Operative atm, upto level 30! Quite enjoying it and think I will after the "nerf". Not trolling, but I don't see how they are weak or anything at the mo.

[ursuul]

MMO Games would fail if not for the grinds... let me as you what would happen if you got every piece of gear you wanted the min you hit 50? You got an upgrade from every boss in every FP or OPS guaranteed every single time?

 

Everyone would have a 50 of every toon get bored and quit in 6 months flat as there is nothing to do... they would have to push new content every single month to keep people playing.

 

oh god not that!!!! quick put in another teir of GRIND or we will have to actually release, you know, INTERRESTING content. i can't believe you would prefer a gear grind to new content..... something is wrong with one of us.

[anstalt]

Gear Progression is an essential part of modern MMPRPGs. Your character is supposed to get better over time, thats part of the whole role-playing thing.

 

 

Grinds, i.e. the enforced repetition of activities beyond the point where it is fun, are a result of developers being unable to design content that remains fun despite repetition.

 

 

 

At the end of the day, it boils down to sandbox versus themepark design philosophies. If content is the same every time, e.g. running a flashpoint will always be you versus the same AI mobs over and over, then eventually it will get boring and unless you have incentive to continue, you'll stop repeating it. Eventually, you run out of content so you quit.

 

Placing a grind in the game, i.e. forcing you to repeat content in order to continue character progression for longer than is fun, is the only method modern mmo developers know to keep you playing long term.

 

 

 

 

Sadly, on the pvp front, bioware have screwed up the grind again. PvP *should* be, essentially, a sandbox activity but in TOR they took away the tools and incentives for proper pvp and funnelled all pvpers in to warzones. Given that there are only 3, the rules are always the same, and its nearly always 8v8, they have become predictable and thus for most people, not fun.

 

 

There are a number of short term solutions. Here's my favourite:

 

1) Give valor for open world kills everywhere - encourage opvp / player made events

2) Tie PvP gear to PvP ranks, not bags/comms

 

 

That way, whilst it may still be a "grind" to reach valor 60 / 70 / 80 or whatever for the gear, you now have a choice of how to get there. Rather than being forced to play warzones, I can do warzones OR ilum OR opvp on any world.

 

By giving the choice of how to gain valor, you remove the feeling of grinding and replace it with slow and steady progression. Sure, it rewards those who play longer, but it does that anyway now!

[Proppa]

I would rather rewards come through the Legacy System than from the gear grind. Competative PvP, a web-base Ranking System to show who is good for bragging rights etc.

 

I've said it in all the threads, I really don't understand how people enjoy gear grinding. Have you played other games where that isn't a requirement? Or is WoW your first MMO and you've stuck to that system?

[ursuul]

I'm leveling my Operative atm, upto level 30! Quite enjoying it and think I will after the "nerf". Not trolling, but I don't see how they are weak or anything at the mo.

 

read the operative forums. the math is there. OPs get nerfed in 1.2. will it be game breaking? or more than the other classes? don't know. however if you actually spend some time reading the OP forum you would see that the general consensus is that OP's are great fun lvl 1-49...... and hurting at 50. that is pre 1.2 nerf.

[Proppa]

Character Progression can come from SOOOO many better things than gear!!!! DAOC had a system which I realy enjoyed, ML,CL, RR etc. Small improvements on the characters but new titles etc aswell. PvP was ALWAYS far more comptative than in this game.

[Ziegler]

I don't care about you in particular, you obviously made your decision. I am simply concerned about the bigger picture. And your opinion about the game design is your own.

 

I get that,

I was basically reinforcing your point of enough people leaving will make it bad for those that do enjoy the game.

[Proppa]

read the operative forums. the math is there. OPs get nerfed in 1.2. will it be game breaking? or more than the other classes? don't know. however if you actually spend some time reading the OP forum you would see that the general consensus is that OP's are great fun lvl 1-49...... and hurting at 50. that is pre 1.2 nerf.

 

I try to avoid the forums to be honest when it comes to things I play. There are always going to be complaints, but if it sucks oh well I have other toons to play. But I won't be a "!lone wolf" I will be playing with friends etc. I think it's a great class to accompany the others. But I see lots of Operatives just try to solo everything etc.

[Proppa]

My ideal system, would be to have Legacy Rewards come from PvP. So it benefits all of my characters. Even things like the Datacrons which offer small bonuses opposed to the huge difference gear seems to make.

 

Obviously until chat logs are implemented and people can actually test for real.... it doesn't help. But all the time people feel like they have an excuse for why they lost "he had better gear" it will never feel as fun, atleast to me.

[QuanZen]

Why would anyone ever post that they are quiting, is it for attention, in hope that others will join in on the troll band wagon? We all came into the world crying, but please have some dignity for the rest of your life and leave with some class.

[lJustAlexl]

As some have accurately determined, this opening post is a well disguised (by frustration) discussion on the incentives implemented within massive multiplayer online RPGs. As expected, there are arguments on both sides of the fence regarding the 'grind system' vs the 'gameplay system' in order to ensure long-lasting subscriptions.

 

I think people need to stop being naive and realize that subscription-based games have little choice but to rely on a grind system in some form. In order to retain the bulk of players, in order to convince people to continue playing beyond the first few months, they need to provide rewards that take some measure of time to achieve. To date, there has not been one successful subscription-based massive multiplayer online RPG that does not rely on this. The bulk of gamers rarely dedicate their time to a single game for months at a time and they would likely not accept the continued pricing each month if they could clear the content and have nothing else to look forward to after reaching an easily achieved point.

 

Those who argue against this model offer examples such as non-MMORPGs: the various popular first person shooters, small-scale instanced multiplayer RPGs, sports titles, etc. The problem with this argument, as far as I see it, is that these games, while highly profitable, are released by the same companies on a yearly basis in order to net continued profits. MMOs, by comparison, create content every few months in the place of a 'sequel' and we pay for that and the other services they provide (server management, etc.) through our subscription fees. The 'grind', is there to keep us motivated to play until that time.

 

I'd lastly like to add the most important aspect of this argument. What some call a 'grind', others consider 'playing the game'. Some players (hopefully a majority) genuinely enjoy the gameplay this MMO provides (myself included, both in PvE and PvP). If you consider activities after hitting the level cap a 'grind', then perhaps the game simply isn't for you (and that's totally fine. People should only be playing things they enjoy. That's the point of this hobby after all).

 

Consider the fact that, conceding that some content is repeated after 50, it's still similar gameplay compared to 1-49. What's the difference there between replaying your favorite stages from those action games or logging on to play against others in those shooters?

 

There, too, you're doing more of the same...it just wears a different facade.

Edited March 23, 2012 by lJustAlexl

[Proppa]

It's just to see wether people feel the same I guess?

[Proppa]

I played DAOC for 10 years almost solidly, because no other game I've ever played had the "addictive" PvP style. Now, I know it's not everyones cup of tea but it's the style of MMO I enjoyed.

 

Have you ever played an MMO where Character Progression wasn't gear based?

 

For example, in SWTOR you could have:

 

Additional Legacy PvP Rewards. Small Valor/XP/Credit gain for your "legacy".

Small stat attributes unlocked, say 20/40/60/80/100 per stat increase based on PvP legacy level.

Additional "cooldown" reductions, or skill boosts, or just additional skills/abilities.

New Titles and "decorative" gear.

 

Web Based site, that lists the Top 25 Per Class, Top 25 Competitors so you can track your stuff over the internet and compare to many other players?

 

IF SWTOR had that kind of Character Progression, I would probably play it for the next 10 years, but as it stand's I highly doubt it will have that much longevity for me.

[Jederix]

i second the poster

you love to grind people? that is what you call playing? because wow and other games do it so all the other games should do it? narrow minded people! there are amounts of other ways to have fun in a theme park, the gear grinding is just the easiest to code! swtor deserves better ideas!

 

We are all ears. Lets hear some ideas instead of just complaining about the ones that already exist.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Jederix

[Jederix]

Nobody will do PvP unless there's a reward or incentive involved. In order to get the best gear you have to invest time.

 

The absolute biggest problem with Battlemaster Gear is once you got it all there was no reason to log on except for your daily. Warzone currency was useless until the recent change. It only took me about 1.5 months to get it all and several times I week I don't even bother logging on because there's nothing to work for.

 

At least with the BM gear updates next patch I can work for more BM comms to buy items to mooch the mods out of.

 

For actual PvPers, the PvP is the incentive. I guess we know which camp you belong to.

[Dagoolch]

The carrot on the stick is always getting better gear. Been that way since the beginning of MMOs. I can't think of one game I've played where it wasn't at least the primary driving force to even play. SWG didn't even require good gear to play because PvE was basically non existent, and all the crafted stuff was very similar. Yet people would still spend a lot of time trying to get random drops with mind poisons/fires that would kill others in seconds, even if they would expire after a good night of PvP. (admittedly that game had other cool things to do such as a very well developed crafting system, houses, etc)

[Proppa]

For actual PvPers, the PvP is the incentive. I guess we know which camp you belong to.

 

Exactly that.....

[lJustAlexl]

I played DAOC for 10 years almost solidly, because no other game I've ever played had the "addictive" PvP style. Now, I know it's not everyones cup of tea but it's the style of MMO I enjoyed.

 

Have you ever played an MMO where Character Progression wasn't gear based?

 

For example, in SWTOR you could have:

 

Additional Legacy PvP Rewards. Small Valor/XP/Credit gain for your "legacy".

Small stat attributes unlocked, say 20/40/60/80/100 per stat increase based on PvP legacy level.

Additional "cooldown" reductions, or skill boosts, or just additional skills/abilities.

New Titles and "decorative" gear.

 

Web Based site, that lists the Top 25 Per Class, Top 25 Competitors so you can track your stuff over the internet and compare to many other players?

 

IF SWTOR had that kind of Character Progression, I would probably play it for the next 10 years, but as it stand's I highly doubt it will have that much longevity for me.

 

The Legacy system appears to be heading in this direction. The devs are cautious, however, in providing benefits that place the newer players at a distinct disadvantage.