Medpacks... are you kidding me?!?!!?!?

[Zeez]

Im 400 biochem on several characters because it was really good maybe too good but this feels like another over-nerf, im just curious since your ruining it can we have a vendor to turn in all our reuseable biochem items so we can get the biometric crystals out? Your giving classes a free respec with a change where is the crafter one? Can I have 400 synthweaving?

 

Im serious about the vendor too, its not my fault you guys released something way too powerful and let it go on so long.

 

I think that is what get people more upset than anything is not the nerf; its the serious lack of testing to notice this stuff prelaunch so the majority of the players dont waste so much time obtaining things to have them taken from them later on.

 

If you changed it so all future ones worked that way I think people would be less angry. But your retro nerfing things that have been around awhile with no long term notice. A lot of my guild has cancelled their subscriptions for this very reason.

 

Your game does not pay to do things first.

1) Valor: People grinded up for what? Tons of hours spent and now its being removed

2) Merc comms and pvp gear: Horrid drop chances => Buying BM tokens => Just wz comms

3) Crafting: Low % chance to RE => Higher chance to RE

4) Biochem: Reusable med pacs => 1 per fight

 

I could go on but whats the point i dont think these posts are even being read by someone who can make change.

 

I am sad that you guys dont come up with a way to reward people who have done things the harder way early on, instead its just make this easier sorry to all of you who did it that way but now its easy. Or now its useless like valor and biochem and all the gear i spent time acquiring. People couldnt get gear before a certain valor now you can just buy it with credits or low point warzones comms...

 

This nerf i would seriously rethink about; it has so many flaws and loopholes that it shouldnt even be implimented until after 1.2 goes live and more players can see how exactly this will affect things.

 

You should be transferring people who do a lot of crafting to test or just make a vendor that sells all the crafting supplies for 1 credit each, then people could test things easier.

[Moshpet]

umm, if it takes you 20 minutes to kill something then they probably don't intend for you to solo it...

 

Maybe some of us are nuts and want to see is we can fight a 20 minute fight, just to say, "Top that." (Or as the dev's said in the Guild summit ".... Some of you said 'Challenge Accepted!"

 

 

 

It's the Everest Equation : For everyone that see's an impossible hill to climb, there are others who say; "Race you to the top."

 

 

Or if you like "It was there.... so I killed it."

 

But like the people who race to climb Everest, we need the tools to get there.

 

This is nothing more than the devs stealing the tools to keep us from getting to the top.

 

Though there are a few of us who would scratch our way up on our bleeding finger tips, the saner of us would say... "What game comes out next...?"

Edited March 25, 2012 by Moshpet

[Kleve]

Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller

You exit combat in PvP 8 seconds after the last hostile action. DOTs do not refresh this status.

 

You're playing very unusual games of Huttball if you never drop out of combat. Especially given that the ball resets to the center after someone scores, moving the action quickly.

 

 

For being a dev you seem to have never played huttball. I am a vanguard tank, so im a great ball runner and basically if im not in combat in hutball im dead, and I am FAR from the only one. People who play to win instead of for kills rarely leave combat and since i cant heal more than one medpac as a tank your totally and completely dooming me since healers are rare in pvp.

 

Oh good, someone ELSE found the words. I'm stunned by his statement. Or perhaps he's being more 'clever' than we're giving him credit for. Because I guess when I die, technically, that's leaving combat....

[kazeen]

Like its been said by others in this thread if you do the objectives in pvp your are rarely out of combat unless you are dead.

 

Then theirs the pve side of things. Several fights you are constantly moving and are not always in line of sight of the healers and if your a class without self heals medpacks keep you going till you get back in line of sight of the healer.

Plus knockbacks or healer is stunned or in some sorta trap.

Plus the bugs that we have to work around just to get threw some fights.

 

Not like bioware is gonna listen anyways that is obvious from the ticket responses

 

But atleast diablo 3 will be here and keep us busy till guild wars 2

See ya guys their

[xyloh]

/signed.

 

Another MMO made medpac (the equivalent of it) usable only once per in combat. People stopped using them or carrying them, making it harder for healers to keep them up. Then they nerfed energy regen for healers... (which they are already doing to sages/sorcs) more than a few threads there started a movement to have 1-2 minute cd on them again. And 2 years later they changed it back.

 

I am just going to say I've been thrilled to play a game that is based on something iconic as Star Wars, but they are slowly breaking down all the reasons I like it as an MMO and not just a game with glowsticks.

 

At least they finally gave in and allowed Jedi (like Mace Windu) to finally use purple sabers...

 

There are a few threads where dps are asking for in combat heals... I forsee much more QQ from them if this change takes effect. (and no I don't support them, just tired of seeing them cry)

[SNOperaghost]

Okay, here are my two creds.

 

Why wouldn't it be possible to set the medpack cooldowns to reset the moment you come out of combat.... and then while in combat they still have a 90 second cooldown timer.

 

As a dedicated raider.. the raid bosses you are seriously handicapping a safety net we've all come to depend upon. most of the bosses have a 6 minute enrage timer.. meaning that they expect the fights to last close to that in most cases. that's 3 med packs per fight... Medpacks that at the right time.. when a healer is casting.. can be the difference between sucess and abject failure on a run.

 

Sure, it's the healers job to keep us alive... but they are busy enough as it is... taking away an individual players 2/3s of the shots that I person uses in a fight like that to back up the healer.. is crazy.

 

I understand the 1 per fight is intended to help.. and outside of raiding.. it is a huge help.. you won't be waiting around for your medpack cooldown between fights.

 

So my question is.. why can't the medpack be made instantly available while not in combat.. and have the timer when in combat? *Sorry if someone already posted this idea.. and I don't expect this to be read by anyone who can do anything.. but I had to try to say something.*

[Bluetickone]

Medpacs can now only be used once per fight. When a medpac is used during combat, another cannot be used until after combat has ended.

 

This is a huge mistake.

 

1- There exists no mechanic to determine when a fight over and the next mob begins for your character alone. Considering that there exists a bug where you companion agros mobs on it's own now.... this becomes even more problematic.

 

2- Group mechanics currently can not differentiate if you are out of combat if your party wanders off and attacks something while you yourself are trying to catch a second wind. This is clearly demonstrated by elevators that will not let you use them if you party is in combat, loot boxes that can not be opened and the like.

 

2a- Does anyone NOT see a problem when -1- member of a Operation is -stuck- in combat mode and no one can use a med pack????

 

3-This change was not asked for by the player community.

 

By gripe is they turned biochem from useful to useless....sad.

[Raansu]

Its astonishing how many bads there are in this thread...

 

Georg your statement is 100% correct and I wouldn't put too much salt in all the complaints. I'm sure you as well as the bioware team is aware that forums are mostly there for venting and nothing else.

 

You have clearly never raided in this game.

[Nerzhul]

Maybe someone already brought this up, but what about classes that have a stealth/drop combat ability? Are they able to use med packs more often due to dropping combat?

 

 

Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller

It's an intentional change. You can use 1 medpac per individual combat, not 1 per Flashpoint. That makes it much easier for us to balance a Flashpoint more tightly to player ability.

 

 

Also, I'm so very glad that we can all pay a $15 per month sub to make your jobs "easier." This is a very arrogant and out of touch statement.

 

 

I love this IP, and I have loved everything BioWare in the past. I'm still having fun in the game, and will still be playing. However, you should listen to community feedback. I don't like this change, and I'm not excited about the path the game seems to be taking. We'll see what happens going forward.

 

Just my two creds.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Nerzhul

[nikthebeast]

Also, I'm so very glad that we can all pay a $15 per month sub to make your jobs "easier." This is a very arrogant and out of touch statement.

 

Wait, what?

 

If the game allows for a single use per combat and the game's encounters are balanced with this is mind, how is this bad for us? Please explain. Without hyperbolic language...

[EJedi]

Wait, what?

 

If the game allows for a single use per combat and the game's encounters are balanced with this is mind, how is this bad for us? Please explain. Without hyperbolic language...

 

Because the game's encounters are balanced NOW with no limit on medpac use other than TIME, which is a perfectly acceptable game mechanism for balance.

 

They are changing something solely for the purpose of making their jobs "easier" and not in a good way.

 

If they want to do this, then they should limit the change to OPERATIONS ONLY.

[CorbinCrawford]

You exit combat in PvP 8 seconds after the last hostile action. DOTs do not refresh this status.

 

You're playing very unusual games of Huttball if you never drop out of combat. Especially given that the ball resets to the center after someone scores, moving the action quickly.

 

It seems that Foxcolt was right in his post which Zoller's above was responding to, the talent Surprise Comeback and [Operative Version] is the reason we cannot re-enter stealth. The ticking HOT keeps us in combat. As unlikely as it sounds, although DOT's do not refresh our combat status as Zoller said, HOT's do.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=377736 is the thread that deals with this.

 

Unless this is working as intended, which the Scoundrel community thinks unlikely due to A) The skill that is inadvertently barring stealth is itself usable from stealth and does not break stealth, and B) Zoller said DOT's do not refresh the status of combat, why does a talented HOT ability?

 

If this is an oversight and not working as intended then I'd really like Zoller to apologise to Foxcolt for dismissing his findings so readily and in the manner he did. These are not very unusual games of Huttball, nor are they very unusual games of Voidstar or Civil War. They were games every Scoundrel and Operative plays each and every time. Blocked from stealth for anywhere from 45 seconds to several minutes, depending how often they refresh their buff and if their last attacked target escapes them. It is a very real scenario.

 

Also, it wouldn't hurt Bioware employees to respond to posts like Foxcolt's with a little more understanding and a little less condescendance.

 

It takes so little time to log in on a Scoundrel to test, and could have saved Foxcolt the insult, and the Scoundrel / Operative community the past week figuring out why what was told to them as fact was again not true.

[Fiddyy]

The only people who should be up in arms about this whole thing should be tanks who currently use the biochem med pack for another tanking cool down. For pretty much everyone else this topic is irrelevant, and therefore most of you shouldn't be posting here. The 90 second 15% HP boost for biochem users needs to be addressed. I couldn't care less about the heal, but the 15% HP does need to be stated what is going to be done about that.

[ufarax]

My guild does SOA on HM and I don't require stims or medpacks. Some people still bring them, but it's not needed.

 

I've done it on nightmare with another guild that does the same, and we cleared it just fine.

 

I've asked this question before, and will ask it again. Can monthly fees from hardcore gamers support this game? The answer is no. You need the casual gamers. If the weekend warriors keep wiping, what will happen? Some will try, but most will say "screw this". I guarantee these changes will be reversed.

[iceperson]

I've asked this question before, and will ask it again. Can monthly fees from hardcore gamers support this game? The answer is no. You need the casual gamers. If the weekend warriors keep wiping, what will happen? Some will try, but most will say "screw this". I guarantee these changes will be reversed.

 

you don't need to be "hardcore" to know that you don't stand in the fire...

[Nerzhul]

Wait, what?

 

If the game allows for a single use per combat and the game's encounters are balanced with this is mind, how is this bad for us? Please explain. Without hyperbolic language...

 

 

Zoeller makes a statement saying that this change allows them to "more easily balance the game."

 

If you are happy to pay to play a game so that the Devs can make decisions based on what's "easier" for them, then by all means, tell them that makes you happy.

 

I, however, feel that if we are paying a monthly sub for a AAA title, then we should get AAA work from the Dev team. They should not be focused on what makes their jobs "easier," but instead on what makes the game better and more balanced across the board.

 

 

Here is an example. Say you are dropping down the ramps on the Soa fight, and for whatever reason, you miss one or miss the group AOE heal. Now you have to use your med pack, and you just blew it for the entire fight, as opposed to maybe having to use it because you were a little too far from a healer while popping your lighting ball, or because of the hectic nature of phase 3. We stay in combat this entire fight, even when we are not directly fighting Soa. I just don't see why we can't have a 3 minute cool down on med packs, instead of 90 seconds, for reasons like this. Soa is a long fight, which requires good co-ordination and has many strange scenarios where med packs become extremely useful. I can understand the desire to balance the game more around player interaction, but certain encounters need to be re-tooled to reflect the change and we've heard nothing about plans to do so. Of course, if story mode now drops Rakata gear (rumor), I suppose EV will be a non issue for most guilds and pugs.

 

I'm sorry, but a stealth class being able to drop combat and med pack more often while tank and healing classes can not is not balance. I'm more concerned about pvp balance with this change. (I realize that we may not yet know if the stealth classes can do this, but if the mechanic is simply to be "out of combat," then the logical conclusion is that they can).

 

As a tank, especially in Voidstar and Civil War, I am alive much longer than 90 seconds on defense with a decent healer. That med pack helps me to not only mitigate my damage and allow my healer to keep up, but also mitigate the damage taken from Guard on the healer. As a tank, and as biochem, I don't like the change at all. I realize that I am biased based on my class and crew skill.

 

If the statement had simply read "We feel that this change will allow us to make encounters slightly more difficult, and give us the ability to balance the game more around player co-operation," then I would have been perfectly fine with that. It's the attitude that comes across in the statement that gets to me more than the change does. It just seems to show the thinking around many of the changes made in this game.

 

Are you honestly happy that the Devs want to make changes based on what makes their jobs easier, as opposed to having some other motivation, like what makes game play better?

 

Is this why the Ancient Pylon encounter and Soa still have existing bugs that have been reported time and time again? Is it simply "too hard" to fix them? Is this why we did not have a fix for players leaving the starting area in Voidstar until just this week. An exploit that has existed since the launch of the game.

 

You may be fine paying your sub for that level of service, but I am not. Eventually, everyone will vote with their wallets.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Nerzhul

[Ryukan]

This is a stupid idea BW...stupid.

[Krivoklat]

Why not just delete biochem all together now.. seriously.. nerf after nerf after nerf.. Give us some craftable Rakata Implants if your going to make everything else we craft pointless.

 

 

seriously only 1 med pack per fight is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. Now people will just stop using them because they will just think "now's not the time, i may need it more later in the fight"

 

 

for fights like SOA where some damage is entirely out of the players control and caused by the environment this is a stupid change...

 

the platform falls on soa are one example.. say the healers are already down on long fall platform and a dps class with out heals is up above them with out enough life to survive the fall. so they have to use the med pack.

 

Now that med pack is not available, so when Soa tosses you up in the air and slams you against the pillars (another damage you have 100% no control over and no way to stop that's random) you now have no medpack avaliable to use.

 

or what about when you pop a lightening ball (that sometimes double/tripple ticks) and drop below 50% health and a healers mind trapped at the same time.. you now have no med pack and if you get tossed into the air you are coming back dead.

 

when you take fights like this where so much is completly out of the players hands and left to the random (RNG) gods and then remove our way of trying to counter balance some of randomness you dont make much sense.

 

Word.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Paralassa
content quote

[Mulawin]

I agree with this change it puts more difficulty in PVE and balancing on PVP

[speedracerlo]

This is a stupid idea as everyone here stated

 

george zoeller change this back to what we the customers want, not what you think is right

[Moshpet]

Wait, what?

 

If the game allows for a single use per combat and the game's encounters are balanced with this is mind, how is this bad for us? Please explain. Without hyperbolic language...

 

I can answer this.

 

1- The game mechanics are not balanced for this.

a- Class boss fights (story) frequently go past 1 minute 30 second.

b- Class quest often have elements where an area fight lasts longer than than 1.5 minutes.

c- Class quests have buggy mobs like any other quest series.

 

 

2- World Story Arc encounters, if done at level range, consistently take longer than one medpach.

 

2- Choke point areas on Hammer Station, Athiss, MR et all have battles that will last past the cool down of the medpacks.

 

4-Broken mechanics to keep you in combat abound.

 

5- Companion Agro Mechanics - If you haven't noticed, various companions generate agro just by just following you in game. Tharan is a prime example, as his 'companion' generates threat and she gets 'killed' set on fire, agros a mob -way- out of area you are fighting it. (This happens so often in the 'Recover the prototype shields' mission on Illum, that it's not funny.)

 

 

6- Mob Respawn Dynamics - Murphy's Law on Respawns a- A mob will repawn, B- most of the time right where you are, as you are finishing a fight... d-before your col down of the medpack (etc) has cooled down.

[Obison]

My first toon went bio, I levelled to 50 before the game was launched during early access and cleared ALL content in the first week. Medpacks are SO OP, I rolled bio on ALL my other toons, and so did most of my guild once they saw what I was doing. I assure you, this change was needed.

 

They could take medpacks out of the game, and I would agree with the change. Ive honestly felt like I was cheating using them, but why wouldn't you use something so bloody powerful..

 

Good on BW for taking this OBVIOUSLY OP item, and changing it.

 

They really need to do better testing on **** before the implement it. I only hope they have done a better job testing all the " other " stuff they've done in 1.2..

[Occams_Razor]

If the statement had simply read "We feel that this change will allow us to make encounters slightly more difficult, and give us the ability to balance the game more around player co-operation," then I would have been perfectly fine with that. It's the attitude that comes across in the statement that gets to me more than the change does. It just seems to show the thinking around many of the changes made in this game.

 

Are you honestly happy that the Devs want to make changes based on what makes their jobs easier, as opposed to having some other motivation, like what makes game play better?

 

Hmmmm, so you suggest an alternate interpretation of Mr. Zoeller's comment and then dismiss it because his statement doesn't say that explicitly? Your assumption is that "more easily" refers to effort as opposed to difficulty. Perhaps what he meant was this: with the variance in use of medpacs between players, balancing content has become impractical because PVE encounters cannot be challenging but achievable for folks not using medpacs on CD without trivializing that same content for those who don't use them on CD and PvP already involves many variables in class balance and "on CD" use of medpacs skews that balance in unpredictable ways.

 

My father always said "Never ascribe to malice what can be explained through ignorance. Mr. Zoeller is not always the best communicator, but in this case, I think it's far more likely he's speaking of feasibility rather than desire to exert effort.

[Occams_Razor]

I can answer this.

 

1- The game mechanics are not balanced for this.

a- Class boss fights (story) frequently go past 1 minute 30 second.

b- Class quest often have elements where an area fight lasts longer than than 1.5 minutes.

c- Class quests have buggy mobs like any other quest series.

 

 

2- World Story Arc encounters, if done at level range, consistently take longer than one medpach.

 

2- Choke point areas on Hammer Station, Athiss, MR et all have battles that will last past the cool down of the medpacks.

 

4-Broken mechanics to keep you in combat abound.

 

5- Companion Agro Mechanics - If you haven't noticed, various companions generate agro just by just following you in game. Tharan is a prime example, as his 'companion' generates threat and she gets 'killed' set on fire, agros a mob -way- out of area you are fighting it. (This happens so often in the 'Recover the prototype shields' mission on Illum, that it's not funny.)

 

 

6- Mob Respawn Dynamics - Murphy's Law on Respawns a- A mob will repawn, B- most of the time right where you are, as you are finishing a fight... d-before your col down of the medpack (etc) has cooled down.

 

First of all, most of these examples assume the following: that these fights are not tuned around a pretty simple equation: can you deal the enemies combined health in damage (and interrupt certain abilities, decreasing damage or preventing auto-kills) before they deal your health in damage. I've played through the game nearly three times since launch, I've used medpacs sparingly when I was not doing content balanced for a character above my level.

 

Secondly, most of these can be re-tuned if the lack of medpacs causes that many issues. I suspect that won't be necessary, however.

[Urkanan]

Originally Posted by iceperson

umm, if it takes you 20 minutes to kill something then they probably don't intend for you to solo it...

Maybe some of us are nuts and want to see is we can fight a 20 minute fight, just to say, "Top that." (Or as the dev's said in the Guild summit ".... Some of you said 'Challenge Accepted!"

 

 

I totally support your logic here. My question is:

 

if someone really is that kind of player, does he/she really have a problem with this change?

 

I think not.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Urkanan