Darth_Aksestos Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Before i even start , personally i think that yes , sorcerers are "dead" for pvp and i will explain why do i say this. Some quick facts about sorcerers A) We dont have burst - we arent a burst class , nothing like operatives , pyrotechs , assassins etc. B) We arent a 1 vs 1 class , like marauders or assassins etc C) We really depend on DOTS and AOE when most classes dont D) Many people think we were overpowered so the nerf is fair I dont think that for a b c anybody could disagree.Thats some facts , since pretty good geared sorcerers cant for example do more than 3.2-3.4k crit with relics and/or potions etc.If a sorcerer did more than 3.5k crit , please show us a video. Sorcerers got nearly 0 burst.Our only burst dmg was the Wrath + the insta CL while also applying Deathfield.That was some respected dmg in little time , but again i dont think u can compare this to the classical burst classes. Our Dots do nice damage , but dont forget they can be removed as well.Plus you cant kill a full HP player just by doting him right ? Now... Why did some players thought we were Overpowered ? A) cuz of the healing which YES was pretty strong B) cuz of our total WZ damage Well for A) i'll agree that the healing was very strong , and im supporting this cuz healers need to heal good.Dont forget that its not everything about pvp , healers are needed to pve as well.With the nerf , sorcerer healers now will have pretty hard time. For B) , yes we did high damage , but think about WHY ?The answer is because of our AOE and Dots.When you Dot for example 3-4 players all the time , when you use Wrath + CL hitting again 3-4 players instanlty , when you are using other AOE attacks , you are making damage.The question is : DOES SORCERER MAKE SO MANY KILLS ? We do make high damage cuz of the reasons i said , but do we kill as well ?Do we destroy in 1 vs 1 each other class ?Are we soooo strong we cant die in 5 secs by a melee class for example ?No.Are we the best ranged damage dealers ?No. So high WZ damage was a reason sorcerer considered to be "overpowered". Second reason was the escape mechanisms.Well yes , OF COURSE we had escape mechanisms and stun/slow abilities , cuz we are (as bioware says) SORCERERS and we use LIGHT armor.What did you expect guys ?Being unable to move ?We need escapes , we need slows , we need stuns !Thats what about a sorc is , trying to keep distance , hitting and then running , doing AOE dmg etc etc. Sorcerer ONLY viable spec for pvp , was the Hybrid build (0-13-28 the basic one , but not the only one as every player can make adjustment) but the basic "thought" was using the Wrath with insta CL as our "top move" or "killer move" or whatever.Now , when Wrath DOESNT effect CL this means a WHOLE BUILD is over , is dead.The nerf wasnt so simple as many could think , the nerf actually KILLED the best pvp spec of sorc , the hybrid. Pure lighting build or pure madness build ARE NOT enough for pvp , you cant compare em ! Yes ok lighting does some damage , but u got 0 mobility.Sniper for example also got 0 mobility but his damage is much higher. Madness is also ok giving you mobility , but hey wait a minute , i have nearly 0 burst , my dots can be removed for fun , and my top skill of the spec cannot be compared to other classes top skills. If anybody didnt play a sorcerer, then he simply cannot talk about pvp with a sorcerer. Because you dont really know what the hybrid build is compared to the pure builds. Sorcerer as far as i consider them , were a support class in WZ.We were pretty good in Huttball for example.Why ?Cuz we pulled players , we CC'ed , we Stun and we got sprint. I dont see any other reason like "we kill easy" , "we do 6k crits" , "we cant die". All i see is about "supporting" the team.So are we really overpowered ? Finally , ratings are coming , and sorcerers arent going to be needed.Simple as that. Why ?Cuz we dont have enough juice thats why.Cuz our utilities wont be so useful anymore , cuz pulling a player wont matter so much as killing a player.Cuz CC'ing a guy to let the ball carrier run wont be as immportant as killing the opponent , cuz throwing you off the ramp again wont be so immportant as killing. Sorcerers got nerfed cuz we just had utilities , escape mechanisms , and did high overall damage in WZ.We didnt got nerfed cuz we were overpowered , we didnt got nerf cuz we couldnt be beaten , we didnt got nerfed cuz we were class-killers , we didnt got nerf cuz we were 1 vs 1 OP class.Thats a fact , and whoever doesnt accept it , is his right of course , but let me tell you that when you dont accept this you are WRONG. PS : about trolls , well ok.. as we know haters gonna hate.Its the rule. Edited March 22, 2012 by Darth_Aksestos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coogihat Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Agreed 100%. As I said in other posts, we got nerfed simply because we were on the radar. We attracted too much attention, others classes hated us cause we were overpopulated. Then they make up the 'OP' excuse, everyone runs with it, and we get nerfed to hell. Perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but that's the general story imo. They could have given us a more 'fair' nerf. At the very LEAST a boost to 31-point trees. But all they have done is simply kill the most viable spec, while leaving the other (sub-par specs) just as they were. Perhaps a slight DPS boost to pure Madness (+20% on Crushing Darkness thru Wrath), but that's it. Where's the love man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da_krall Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 yes it is dead, yes bioware are *********** morons, yes it shows they have no clue about pvp at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Aksestos Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Bioware needs to really find a "formula" to those nerfs / class changes.I mean just within 3-4 months , they actually crushed completely a class.Still , as i said , the reason wasnt that we were overpower... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrestrial Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Everyone is focusing on the Wrath +CL nerf and it polarizes the player base. Kind of ironic. It represented the only burst we actually had. So you assume this is a plausible direction for the class. Now the burst is entirely gone. A sorcerer class that has no armor to speak of and a limited bubble that has to duck around corners and stay mobile to survive has no burst. There WAS burst available. Bioware could have buffed 31 point lightning. Bioware could have amped the Lightning Strike damage to make it burst worthy when they nerfed the Wrath +CL. And yet, with all of their changes to all the classes, including moving talents around for other classes like Marauder and Juggernaut, they couldn't think to fix our issues? Just take things away? I just don't understand this. We have no more room to grow as a PvP class. We are a support class that is surpassed by other classes. If the real options to be viable in rated war zones are simply to reroll, why would anyone stay in the game? Is the game THAT good that you would pay a subscription for someone else to tell you what is viable and what is not when you invest in a particular toon from the outset and it falls out of favor with developers? Again, I really am at a loss to explain why Bioware made the change and why they didn't fix what was actually broken at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Aksestos Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Well as i said , bioware really needs to find a proper formula with nerfs and classes. They pretty much killed sorcerer , and in same time didnt buff anything at all.Well i guess most sorcerers would go to fridge till a new patch comes out , unfortunately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakeswed Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Every class can't be a burst class. Adapt to your class instead. Sorc is the tor equivalent of the warlock in WoW. They suffer from the same "problem" but they are awsome too. Edited March 26, 2012 by Paralassa content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Aksestos Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Ιf sorc was the same as warlock , i'd be pretty happy now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Solrac Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 So the moral of this patch story is, don't PvP as a Sorc. I kinda thought this even before the patch. We're weak against Melee classes, up close, period. Still love this class most tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iselin Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 We're still the best at running and hiding around the corner... that ability has to be worth at least the same as heavy armor I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Minmaxer_ Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 There are too many fallacies in the initial post for me to spend the time debunking them all. Pre 1.2 we had plenty of burst. This was post 1.1 but pre surge nerf, this hit would be about 4.6k now. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24/screenshot2012020520080.jpg/ Post 1.2 things will be more difficult for some, but I'm hoping it will force sorcs to actually learn how to play their class properly. We still have several viable specs, but the two I would suggest are full Madness or Corruption(23)/Madness(18). If you want to have a constructive discussion of post 1.2 pvp feel free to post in this thread http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=368522 and I will do my best to help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Every class can't be a burst class. Adapt to your class instead. Sorc is the tor equivalent of the warlock in WoW. They suffer from the same "problem" but they are awsome too. So you're saying that locks can't do burst? Did you realize that lock instant proc of shadow bolt works off dots- thus, they can be mobile while waiting for it to proc, yet a sorc needs to stand still to use FL which is where instants proc from? Locks don't suffer the same problem- locks are a class that can do heavy burst- which is exactly what is being asked for here. It's a joke that the squishy mage class in TOR is the lowest burst class in the game. Edited March 26, 2012 by Paralassa content quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warultima Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I laughed when I read that someone said Locks cannot burst............ not only they can burst they can do it extremely well WHILE they chain CC you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makmoer Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Can we please talk about SWTOR and sorcs and not that other PandaPokemon game? Edited March 26, 2012 by Paralassa content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matekwong Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 What about asking BW to stop nerfing Sage/Sorc DPS but nerf your incredibily handy CCs? They might rethink you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthWannaBe Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Is sorcerer dead for pvp ?Some thoughts... Sorcerer is dead in general pvp/pve. BW just won't be happy til they kill every reason you have to play the game. It's their new marketing strategy. Edited March 23, 2012 by DarthWannaBe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elhazzared Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Through all this there is only one thing I can't agree with what said, and that being that healing was very strong. Sorcerer healing, while the best one is not that strong. It is in fact acceptable. it's just about as much as you minimally need for PVE and actually weaker than needed for PVP... Sure, healing others in PVP has a good effect but let's see how long a healer lasts in a 1 vs 1? Not even 10 seconds if it's a DPS class... I mean, really? We bubble ourselfs, we blow our medpak, we heal ourselfs for all the hell's worth to try to buy some seconds for an ally to show up around the courner and save our asses and we can't even last 10 seconds? PVP healing is at the moment weak. Also I don't know about your servers but on the server I play sorcerer play is already dead, it has been for some time. Reason, healers don't last longer than 2 seconds after being spoted. Ganged immediatly by 4 or 5 people. If they are not healers, odds are the same happens cause they are very easy kills anyway. Still, PVP is not the worst news for sorcerer players, PVE is the worst news and for all players cause I want to see how are things going to get done now that about 1/4 of our healing power is gone and we can't recover energy. Healings won't last for a lot of boss fights, in some cases it won't last for even half the battle and did I say we lost 1/4 of our healling power? Cause our heals were about just the bare minimum needed for PVE and now, they are even worse. Quite frankly I'm not even sure what to do with my sorcerer when the new patch comes out, but quite likelly, I'll just have to roll another character and keeps this one in the closet until BW understand just how bad of a decision this was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrxsolell Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Haven't read all of the posts, only the OP's post. I have a marauder, sorc, and operative. All 50. I never found sorc to be OP as far as damage goes. Only thing I found was that they don't have to worry about force management, unlike other classes and I do believe it's something that needs looking into if it hasn't already. I've played DPS sorc and healing sorc and never had trouble at 50 keeping my force up indefinitely in both pvp and pve. Operative is another story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morngwath Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Still, PVP is not the worst news for sorcerer players, PVE is the worst news and for all players cause I want to see how are things going to get done now that about 1/4 of our healing power is gone and we can't recover energy. Healings won't last for a lot of boss fights, in some cases it won't last for even half the battle and did I say we lost 1/4 of our healling power? Cause our heals were about just the bare minimum needed for PVE and now, they are even worse. This really made me laugh. I think our heals are a lot more than the bare minimum for PvE. We're healing gods right now in PvE. Hell, if 1 Sorc can heal EV HM, something is wrong. You should go ahead and play an Operative healer. Thats the one with the bare minimum of healing for PvE. Is it gonna be harder to heal for us? Yeah, sure. Impossible? Don't think so. And you realize, that you will still use Force Surge after 1.2 hits? So force should still not be such a big concern. I think people will just have to accept the fact, that they have to adapt to a new way of healing. That's what I'm going to do. And if that doesn't work, I still have my Operative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elhazzared Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I'd like to know how just 1 person can heal up EV HM... Really cause I don't see one sigle healer healling an 8 man party. And no, we're not healing gods. We're the best current healers but no gods by definition. All other healers they kinda jury rig, if you get my meaning. Throw one healing every now and then, mostly emergency heals. I don't say it's going to be impossible to heal, just that it will very hard if not close to impossible to do some instances with the way healing is coming... by the way, force surge in 1.2? Sure thing pal, eat at your life to recover some force, then cry that the boss one hit you cause you were recovering force and were bellow half health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morngwath Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I'd like to know how just 1 person can heal up EV HM... Really cause I don't see one sigle healer healling an 8 man party. And no, we're not healing gods. We're the best current healers but no gods by definition. All other healers they kinda jury rig, if you get my meaning. Throw one healing every now and then, mostly emergency heals. I don't say it's going to be impossible to heal, just that it will very hard if not close to impossible to do some instances with the way healing is coming... by the way, force surge in 1.2? Sure thing pal, eat at your life to recover some force, then cry that the boss one hit you cause you were recovering force and were bellow half health. At least the first 2 Bosses can be healed with just one sorc, if the group avoids damage correctly. Yes, for Pylons and Soa you will need another healer. And on your Force Surge remark. So your're rather sit there and do nothing while you wait for your force to come back? Ok, then we really do not need to discuss this further. And if your at 50% health after a Consumption, you must have done something wrong. Of course i will not use comsumption if I'm about to get hit by bonethrasher or will eat a ball lightning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Aksestos Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Well , i said that PVE is also a problem especially for healers.I didnt said so much about it not because i think PVE is not as immportant as PVP , but because personally and i think most sorcerer players as well worry about pvp more (rated ones right ?) than pve.Still , pve would be also a huge problem for sorcerers , i agree , either you are a DPS or a healer. As far as the guy saying about 4.6k+ dmg , well ok , maybe this was an exception , it was pre surge nerf (who knows how much surge rating you had) , maybe we were talking about TOP gear , but lets not forget the general rule : do 80-90 per cent of -decent- gear sorcerers do more than 3.4-3.5 crit dmg on a same lvl opponent with about same pvp gear ?I dont think so.Right now for example i have a 43 lvl pyro and i do with rail shot with lvl 43 items , 2.6-2.7k crit without ANY use of stim etc , and with 58% surge.So i guess i'll be able to do at least 4-4.2k when i'll be 50 with champion gear for example , or maybe even 5k , aint really sure.Does a sorcerer do that as well ?Nah... As i said , my point is that sorcerer got nerfed cuz people were making complaints all the time about our escapes ,our WZ mechanisms for example pulling players in huttball , and about our total dmg where in most cases a decent sorc was first in total damage output. But never somebody thought to really check a sorc class in pvp , can we kill a same geared class "easy" ?No , either we need much skill and effort either we'll just die. Can we outdamage other ranged classes skill per skill ?No , mercs do more dmg , snipers as well , and lets not talk about melee where an assassin or a marauder with 3-4 hits gets you to 30%-40% HP... Plus , the nerf isnt just about a single skill like tracer missile in Mercs , the nerf actually crushed the only viable build for pvp the hybrid.So the nerf as a nerf is more like a class kill than an actuall "class skill reduction". If anybody can actually play -decent- with either lighting or madness (pure builds) please post some strategies etc.But i dont think we got the juice for it , and i've tried the pure builds as well.... Edited March 23, 2012 by Darth_Aksestos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elhazzared Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) I don't think PVP is meant for sorcerers as it is. i mean, even what we have now is not good. I stopped pvping recently for one reason. when a sorcerer is seen, everything else is ignored and everyone gangs on them. Starting with the healers for obvious reasons and then the DPS ones because they are so squishy they die in 2 seconds just like the healers... I literally mean 2 seconds, 4 or 5 people on a sorcerer, that's how long you last! that's why I don't care about nerfs done that affect purelly PVP for sorcerers. that which affects PVE which is the only place where a sorcerer can play it's role and well, the only place it can actually play anyway, then yes I do get more than just a little bit pissed off. Morg - You must be joking. I mean, sure the pylons need 2 healers, SOA definitly is the one I can solo heal the 8 man party because the divided 3 stages gives me some time to recover. The first two bosses deal a lot of damage, they hit multiple targets like crazy. They are the worse for healers. the only reason you might need 2 healers on SOA is cause one can get sucked in a mind trap and even then might not even make tooo much of a difference. And my force surge remark, I expected more of a brain of you really. It's not about whether or not I'd rather sit there and do nothing. If I use consuption, I'll more than likelly be one hit at some point which will mean party will wipe for lack of healers, if I don't party will wipe cause I ain't healing either. It's not what I'd rather do, it's that wherever you look there is no solution. Edited March 23, 2012 by Elhazzared Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Aksestos Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 Well bioware thinks sorcerers were sooo overpowered and great , that they just nerfed em hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morngwath Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Morg - You must be joking. I mean, sure the pylons need 2 healers, SOA definitly is the one I can solo heal the 8 man party because the divided 3 stages gives me some time to recover. The first two bosses deal a lot of damage, they hit multiple targets like crazy. They are the worse for healers. the only reason you might need 2 healers on SOA is cause one can get sucked in a mind trap and even then might not even make tooo much of a difference. And my force surge remark, I expected more of a brain of you really. It's not about whether or not I'd rather sit there and do nothing. If I use consuption, I'll more than likelly be one hit at some point which will mean party will wipe for lack of healers, if I don't party will wipe cause I ain't healing either. It's not what I'd rather do, it's that wherever you look there is no solution. I'm pretty sure you can't heal Soa HM with 1 one healer, and thats not because of the mind trap, its the ball lightnings. The first 2 bosses deal little damage, if your party knows how to avoid the damage. And again, you really don't get it do you? Why would you end up being one hit by the boss if you use consumption when your're at 100%? Not one boss I can think of, that will hit for 15k without enrage. If your're at 50% after consumption that means that something else must have happened before. The only time you will be under 80% health is when you took a ball lightning, EV 1st boss last 10% or Bonethrasher. All the other damage can be avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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