How is the Ironfist build performing in the 50 pvp bracket?

[exphryl]

To be honest, I never really understood this build. No matter how many times I try it it seems like it really doesn't bring much to the table.

 

Survivability isn't increased that much, and damage is mediocre at best. (Sure you can get 3K Rocket Punches but the rest of the damage will just tickle an opponent)

 

With little tools to fully assist you in a PvP Environment. The only thing it feels like this build has over DPS type builds is an effective guard.

 

Maybe there is some big picture here I'm missing. I've pretty much sworn off shield or shield hybrids for a PT right now with the current state of talents and the game =/

[Pendrych]

To be honest, I never really understood this build. No matter how many times I try it it seems like it really doesn't bring much to the table.

 

Survivability isn't increased that much, and damage is mediocre at best. (Sure you can get 3K Rocket Punches but the rest of the damage will just tickle an opponent)

 

With little tools to fully assist you in a PvP Environment. The only thing it feels like this build has over DPS type builds is an effective guard.

 

Maybe there is some big picture here I'm missing. I've pretty much sworn off shield or shield hybrids for a PT right now with the current state of talents and the game =/

 

It's all about timing.

 

With pyro you can pretty much go all out, all the time, and if you get lucky people die in 4-6 globals. If you don't get lucky, you're still putting out pretty good pressure. But basically you open up pretty hard and keep going until you have to manage heat - which if you get lucky with Rail Shot procs isn't for a very long time, at least until 1.2 hits.

 

Iron fist (and any durable DPS-type build) requires a bit more finesse and target awareness. Typically I use it in a more harassment-type role. My most important tools for team play are Carbonize, Grapple, 6s Quell, Electro-dart, and the two taunts. Get in healers' faces, or make sure the DPS trying to focus your healers can't maintain a constant flow of damage. You have burst, but because it isn't as inherently strong and you don't have the heat dissipation of a full DPS build, you have to pick when to use it.

 

Both options can be incredibly useful to a team, but you have to adjust your playstyle.

[Agooz]

From what I understand, Iron Fist is just like the Assassin hybrid that is pretty unstoppable at the moment.

 

LOL far far far from it.

[Agooz]

 

Iron fist (and any durable DPS-type build) requires a bit more finesse and target awareness. Typically I use it in a more harassment-type role. My most important tools for team play are Carbonize, Grapple, 6s Quell, Electro-dart, and the two taunts. Get in healers' faces, or make sure the DPS trying to focus your healers can't maintain a constant flow of damage. You have burst, but because it isn't as inherently strong and you don't have the heat dissipation of a full DPS build, you have to pick when to use it.

 

Both options can be incredibly useful to a team, but you have to adjust your playstyle.

 

Who lied to you and told you Iron Fist is a durable "DPS" build? It's totally a tank build. Hec, our broken AP tree is more of a durable DPS build than Iron Fist. If you have more than 21points in a tank tree, you're a tank.

Parakeet was a durable DPS build in a tank spec, hence the nerf and is no longer viable.

[Pendrych]

Who lied to you and told you Iron Fist is a durable "DPS" build? It's totally a tank build. Hec, our broken AP tree is more of a durable DPS build than Iron Fist. If you have more than 21points in a tank tree, you're a tank.

Parakeet was a durable DPS build in a tank spec, hence the nerf and is no longer viable.

 

No one lied to me.

 

Durable DPS is exactly what it is - look at the talent selection, it's about maximizing your Rocket Punch damage and controlling the battlefield while maintaining some defenses. Parakeet was another approach towards doing the same thing, with less focus on control and durability and more on damage.

 

The specs are on a spectrum, with a full ST build on one end and full Pyro on the other.

 

It's one reason I pay attention to Taugrim's blog, we have similar playstyles and tastes, so I find his information particularly pertinent. That's been the case since I ran into him on WAR on our swordmasters - which also fit the role of durable DPS in that game.

[Agooz]

No one lied to me.

 

Durable DPS is exactly what it is - look at the talent selection, it's about maximizing your Rocket Punch damage and controlling the battlefield while maintaining some defenses. Parakeet was another approach towards doing the same thing, with less focus on control and durability and more on damage.

 

The specs are on a spectrum, with a full ST build on one end and full Pyro on the other.

 

It's one reason I pay attention to Taugrim's blog, we have similar playstyles and tastes, so I find his information particularly pertinent. That's been the case since I ran into him on WAR on our swordmasters - which also fit the role of durable DPS in that game.

 

By replying back to my post and insisting that the Iron fist is a durable DPS build, you make yourself look bad. Especially when you tell me to look at the talent selection.

 

Iron fist is a PvP 'TANK' spec. The only difference between Iron Fist and a FULL Tank spec is 6 points going into the AP tree for PvP utility instead of shieldtech, that's IT PERIOD. There isnt a SINGLE talent that you have in the Iron Fist spec that maximizes ANY dps, that a full Tank spec doesnt have.

 

You put a full Tank spec vs an Iron fist spec in a damage parse and you will not see a difference. In fact the Full tank spec might pull ahead with Heat Blast.

 

Stop arguing about this, you will loose every once of credibility. I never said Iron Fist is not a good spec, but call it what it is, it is a Tank spec. Hec even when parakeet came out, it was labeled as Tank spec, and that does way more damage than Iron Fist.

[taugrimtaugrim]

You put a full Tank spec vs an Iron fist spec in a damage parse and you will not see a difference. In fact the Full tank spec might pull ahead with Heat Blast.

 

Stop arguing about this, you will loose every once of credibility. I never said Iron Fist is not a good spec, but call it what it is, it is a Tank spec. Hec even when parakeet came out, it was labeled as Tank spec, and that does way more damage than Iron Fist.

 

If you go 31 pts into the tank tree, you have only 10 points left, which means relative to IF you'll either lose:

- DPS talents

- CC capability

 

Also, you will have invested talent points that provide a meager ROI - especially the shield/absorb-related talents.

[Agooz]

If you go 31 pts into the tank tree, you have only 10 points left, which means relative to IF you'll either lose:

- DPS talents

- CC capability

 

Also, you will have invested talent points that provide a meager ROI - especially the shield/absorb-related talents.

 

31/8/2 which is the mainstream Full tank spec, doesnt loose out on DPS Talents. Like I said, there is only 6 points difference. They specifically go into the following under the AP tree: Quell, Power Armor, and Advanced tools, in which case you actually lost dps over 31shieldtech. If you skip prototype cylinder and go for Retractable Blade, then it is a wash at best, but I would still say Heat Blast > RB.

In summary, Iron Fist is a Tank spec, emphasizing pvp utility...period.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Agooz

[taugrimtaugrim]

31/8/2 which is the mainstream Full tank spec, doesnt loose out on DPS Talents.

 

Reading comprehension FTL.

 

I said you either lose DPS or you lose CC.

 

You lose CC capability with 31/8/2 - in particular your interrupt with 31/8/2 has the base 8-sec cooldown, whereas Iron Fist has a 6-sec cooldown. It's a significant difference when trying to control / shutdown casters and healers.

Edited March 24, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[taugrimtaugrim]

From what I understand, Iron Fist is just like the Assassin hybrid that is pretty unstoppable at the moment.

 

Um, no.

 

The 31-pt Assassin/Shadow tank spec is arguably the strongest in PVP right now.

 

Awesome survivability (bubble for immunity to Force/Tech, bubble for Melee/Ranged avoidance, etc), very good AOE damage, solid burst damage, sprint, stealth, pull, uninterruptible self healing, and AOE slow / debuff to boot.

 

My server has a lot of skilled PVP players on both factions and we're seeing more of it. That said, the vast majority of the community still doesn't know about it.

Edited March 24, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[Agooz]

Reading comprehension FTL.

 

I said you either lose DPS or you lose CC.

 

With all due respect, it seems you're the one with the reading comprehension.

There is no "EITHER" lose DPS or CC...it's ONLY CC. With these 6 points, you're trading defense for CC, which is good for pvp.

 

You lose CC capability with 31/8/2 - in particular your interrupt with 31/8/2 has the base 8-sec cooldown, whereas Iron Fist has a 6-sec cooldown. It's a significant difference when trying to control / shutdown casters and healers.

 

And you are repeating exactly what I said, but actually in LESS details.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Agooz

[Slurmez]

Anything other than full pyro is crap in the current iteration of the game IMO. Played all the major builds. Pyro's burst trumps any utility/survivability. I don't have to survive when I can burst everything down. Besides, most times when you die in pvp it's due to being focused. Extra mitigation won't help you when the other team decides its your time to go. On pyro, I can take two of em with me. On IF or CP? None usually. I cough when another spec of ptech attempts to do anything to my pyro... Survivability is only good if you are a dedicated tank guarding a healer IMO. Otherwise 7/6/28 or some variation ftw.

 

Pyro is just fotm cheese, virtually every BH has swapped over to it, Its getting a small nerf next patch and a bigger one will follow if it continues to outperform.

 

In terms of dueling a full BM pyro they have about 10-15% on my IF vanguard so expect to see that get taken out of you over time.

[Agooz]

Pyro is just fotm cheese, virtually every BH has swapped over to it, Its getting a small nerf next patch and a bigger one will follow if it continues to outperform.

 

In terms of dueling a full BM pyro they have about 10-15% on my IF vanguard so expect to see that get taken out of you over time.

 

What? lol

 

First of all, Pyro will prob do at least 25% more, not 10-15%. Second, why in the hec would you expect a "PURE" dps tree to be within the same damage as a Tank spec like IF?

[exphryl]

What? lol

 

First of all, Pyro will prob do at least 25% more, not 10-15%. Second, why in the hec would you expect a "PURE" dps tree to be within the same damage as a Tank spec like IF?

 

I'm beginning to think most people that run IF have zero people on their server that can produce adequate DPS.....

[Agooz]

I'm beginning to think most people that run IF have zero people on their server that can produce adequate DPS.....

 

Actually they think it is some kind of hybrid spec that pumps out dps. It's a full on TANK spec geared towards PvP, that's it. I mean it is nowhere near the effectiveness of a parakeet, hence the nerf that makes the later not viable anymore.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Agooz

[Malvantyr]

Iron Fist is the tank pvp build, I never even considered it a dps build.

 

I'm a 4/6/31 kind of guy though.

 

Burst kills people. Double Rocket Punching every 4.5 seconds is not burst.

 

Also, you don't need a 6 second quell to lockdown a healer, I do it just fine with 8 seconds. If I try AP for fun in 1.2, I won't even take that skill.

 

Peope list the benefits of builds like this one, and all I can think is, "um, half of that is class abilities, which means I can already do that as any build."

 

The benefit of this build: retaining your charge and guard. I'd still rather run 8-2-31 with ion cell.

[Doozzer]

there seems to be a serious logical flaw in the argument in this thread, and that's taking the team into account.

 

If you're solo queuing, pyro is obviously superior. When you solo queue you have to assume that your team is largely incapable of performing and watch out for yourself. Pyro is great for this- You'll burn down everyone and get your 2.5, 1v1, KB and 75k medal, win or lose. You'll get even more than that if you actually remember to taunt.

 

If you're queuing with a team, and you should be if you think you're a serious PVPer, then yes... Pyrotech is still good. Its a great damage spec by the measure of any class, and probably will continue to be a great damage spec into 1.2, when we get rated warzones and we start finding out how much teamwork actually matters.

 

But that is where IronFist shines. If you're queuing with a team, being IronFist counts for a lot. Its not a question of damage, its about how much beer you're bringing to the party.

 

If you're going to solo queue into 1.2, then sticking to pyro is a pretty good bet.

 

If you're actually interested in team/rated play, then Iron Fist gives you the potential to be the best defender on your team, which is not something a lot of other classes can say very convincingly. After all, if you're a pyro, you're still competing for that roster slot with snipers, tracer missiles, and marauders... and you have to like marauder, he's gonna speed buff the whole team.

[Vanash]

 

The benefit of this build: retaining your charge and guard. I'd still rather run 8-2-31 with ion cell.

 

It still doesn't cut it if you want to play defensive. Fine if all you want to do is farm medals but a waste of time if you want to contribute. If you guard someone you'll drop like a sack of spuds in most cases. Without CGC you'll not get PPA procs (patch notes say CGC is needed for PPA) So your heat management and dps will be terrible with Ion.

 

As mentioned by myself and the guy after you, the difference is down to how you join matches, and how you play. Comparing Pyro and IF is ridiculous as they are completely different styles of play with completely different objectives. IF = defend, Pyro = kill.

 

This thread would benefit more from discussion potential gear combinations post 1.2 rather than this silly pyro =/= IF debate.

 

Speaking of which, I'm considering mixing up supercommando and combat tech for my IF. 2 piece Supercommando seems too good to miss out on, although when CP specced I can't remember too many times when charge wasn't up when needed. Also the 4 piece CT will be beneficial, but will it be as much use bearing in mind the 4.5sec cd on RP?

 

 

Full supercommando = less dmg output (not sure 5% when gurading will make up for loss of dmg stats on CT) + some portion of wasted stats on defense/ absorb as not all attacks mitigated. Benefits are JC reduced CD which makes being melee less of an issue and even being less effective in pvp the def stats will still mean surviveability will be higher (and marauders/snipers will hurt less)

 

Full Combat Tech = Less surviveability (defensive stats). Benefits are imp carbonize which is useful, and 15% to crit for RP speaks for itself.

 

2+2 = Mobility and improved CD's at the cost of increased dmg.

 

I still can't decide which would benefit overall as a defensive spec. If protecting a healer you still need to be able to put pressure on the person attacking the healer, and not hit like a wet noodle, but on the flip side every second you stop someone hitting the healer means they can do their job better...

[Blue-moon]

Is it just me that can't stop calling Rocket Punch 'Donkey Punch'?

[Crixaliss]

Ignoring any arguments in the rest of the thread about this specs use etc, I thought I might come here for some advice.

 

I've been pretty much a sole PvE player on swtor. Over the weekend I got interested in warzones and have been playing a lot. I'll be honest, I haven't respecced from my PvE tank talents, but I'm still having a lot of fun even though I'm not as effective as I could be.

 

For PvE I have a columi supercommando set for tanking, and a columi combat tech set for dps (pyro build when I dps).

 

Theres a few guys in my guild who run a lot of pvp, and it'd be preferable for me to be the 'tank' sort of guy with all the utility stuff, rather than just going pyro dps for pvp. On that basis I've taken a liking to the iron fist spec and plan to give it a go, looks like it fits me better than parakeet etc, especially as its not a vastly different change to my current play.

 

The question is... gear. What should I do? Wear my PvE tanking set or my dps set? Switch to champion combat tech or supercommando as and when I get the commendations/bag drops? Do I ignore centurion as its basic stats are so much lower than columi, or does the expertise make up for it? I'm a little lost. Currently I've just been running around in my PvE tanking gear/spec and still not feeling particularly survivable against all those battlemasters.

[mugen_dom]

if your gonna guard people the PVP champ supercommando is gonna give you a bonus so that with DPS mods and enhancements would be good also combat tech is a good alternative to it....I have the PVE combat tech, but with battlemaster implants ear belt bracers and main and off hand to get the 500 Expertise

[luxflux]

I'm not sure how this debate continues.

 

IF build was primarily formed from taugrim wanting to post more builds on his website. It's interesting in theory. I tried it. In practice it fails.

 

I hear the word 'utility' tossed around a lot. Utility implies, I suppose, you bring something besides the tangible damage or heals. That your extra abilities offset pure dps/tanking/healing etc.

 

What does ironfist bring to the table that a pure tank/dps ptech doesn't bring in superior way?

 

I hear crickets chirping. Their dps output is exactly like a tanks. You still hit like a wet noodle. You can take more damage than pyro, but so can a tank. You do less damage than a pyro, so does a tank. You have a charge, so does a tank. I'm failing to understand why this is good, when you do everthing worse than pure specs, and nothing better, and you bring nothing to the table. And really, don't even try to say that talenting quell offsets all the gains you get from just pure speccing. That's really just trying to rationalize the spec which is clearly inferior.

 

If you wanna tank, tank. If you wanna dps, dps. IF is mediocre at both *at best*. I think it's the most fail spec I've ever seen debated as viable. Like I said, I thought it was interesting, and tried it after trying full tank spec. It brought me nothing. Full tank spec is vastly superior. And pyro....so much better. If you have a premade with a healer and want to guard him, then your primary object is to....guard him. What does IF offer you to enhance this? Theoretically it gives you more "utility" and dps...in practice...lol.

 

Really, this thread exists b/c of a fairly competent website author trying to make more content. I find it amusing.

[Vanash]

The point of the build is to spend the 'useless' portion of the full tank spec somewhere where it'll have more impact.

 

Whats the point of filling up the ST tree when the vast majority of the point spend will not mitigate the dmg based on the cost.

 

IF is about an extra attack while making our defensive abilities a bit better (the points to retractable blade) It is a tank spec primarily, BUT it's more of a PVP tank spec as opposed to a PVE spec.

 

My 'IF' build will be more defensive, and hopefully more heat friendly for PvP with (I Hope) a better balance of defense and dmg. It may hit like a wet noodle, but it's not a DPS spec, it's a more useful tank (healer protector) spec.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hRGr0MrozZdMdMoZbcb.1

 

The only trouble with the spec is it's heat management is entirely based around getting hit which may or may not work dependant on the opponents, but then shorter cd's on defensive abilities should compensate when protecting healers.

[Agooz]

 

IF is about an extra attack while making our defensive abilities a bit better (the points to retractable blade) It is a tank spec primarily, BUT it's more of a PVP tank spec as opposed to a PVE spec.

 

 

There is no extra attack, you are trading Heat Blast (as a full ST) for Retractable Blade. Trading a 0 heat + 8heat refund elemental damage ability for Retractable Blade is I think a dps loss.

How does IF make your defensive abilities better? If anything Full ST has alot more armor, shield chance...yes most of the attacks in pvp will ignore them, but the ones that dont you will have more defenses against them.

 

It boils down to quell, that's it. Nothing more. I am not saying it is a waste, or a bad build, or that taugrim doesnt know what he's talking about, etc... But people for some reason put it on some type of "hybrid" pedestal and saying things like "it's between a full tank and a dps PT", which it not at all. It is completely on the left side of the spectrum, standing in the shadow of a full tank spec.

[luxflux]

There is no extra attack, you are trading Heat Blast (as a full ST) for Retractable Blade. Trading a 0 heat + 8heat refund elemental damage ability for Retractable Blade is I think a dps loss.

How does IF make your defensive abilities better? If anything Full ST has alot more armor, shield chance...yes most of the attacks in pvp will ignore them, but the ones that dont you will have more defenses against them.

 

It boils down to quell, that's it. Nothing more. I am not saying it is a waste, or a bad build, or that taugrim doesnt know what he's talking about, etc... But people for some reason put it on some type of "hybrid" pedestal and saying things like "it's between a full tank and a dps PT", which it not at all. It is completely on the left side of the spectrum, standing in the shadow of a full tank spec.

 

Said much better than me. Perfect summary of IF build, although I am somewhat hesitant to dismiss the usefulness of the tank tree talents completetly. They come into play and mitigate damage quite a bit more than Taugrim makes them out to. And I do want to add that I'm not bashing Taugrim, I just find this particular build, while creative/logical, to fall short in practice.