Tanks and somethings they may not tell you

[Kil-Gorbane]

"Why do you need to know what the initial attack threat value is?"

- So only your arguments supporting melee DPS guard warrant threat value discussion?

 

Woah Hatch, This topic HAS been about guarding healers for awhile now. And the main argument used to NOT guarding a healer is because non-attacked mobs have 0 threat. Thus reducing a healers threat generation on a target with 0 threat is useless. If you need me to explain the math to you, I will. But maybe you should try reading the older posts first. And go back further than a few pages.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Kil-Gorbane

[midnitemonster]

"Other than dps needs to kill better and tanks need to aggro better. You seem to want to make this overly complicated for some reason."

 

Bottom line is that both sides of the story can present arguments and experiences. Not everyone has a perfect group composition nor is every group made up of perfect players. I just wanted to make the point that guard on a healer may be helpful. I have presented my points. I know how to properly tank and I also know that group ops require flexibility in their planning. I am suggesting you guys open your minds and remove the constant battering and attacking. Especially when I have made several points that have yet to be countered or are just scoffed off. If you guys are unwilling to listen to an actual discussion then why are you even in these forums?

 

BTW I am not even the OP'er nor am I the only voice supporting that guard DOES NOT have to be on DPS all the time.

 

I get what you are saying and understand that it works different for some groups. If it works for you, so be it, more power to ya.

 

What points have you made that have yet to be countered? The reason to not guard a healer is because it is not a constant. In Operations you should not have to lay a ground rule that healers need to stay within 15m for the start of the fights. Let tanks focus on tanking, healers focus on healing and dps focus on pew pewing. Have you presented this idea in the healers thread? Are you stating this because you think it will make Tanks more efficient?

Edited April 5, 2012 by midnitemonster

[Kil-Gorbane]

"The reason to not guard a healer is because it is not a constant."

- I totally agree, and the fundamental aspect of that point was my main discussion earlier in this thread. When you have an ops team with DPS all going full out, the MT/OT need to be able to tank the mobs without use of guard. I understand that guard will help threat and control, BUT the drive should be for the team to work efficiently without the guard. My example was a team composition of 4 melee DPS all with high damage outputs - who gets guard at that point - the tank needs to be able to control threat in this situation and 2/4, 3/4, or 4/4 high end, non guarded DPS, is a scenario a tank needs to prepare for.

 

I realize that guarding a healer does not mean that this benefit is being used 100% of the time. But when the tank is able to tank without the crutch of guard then it really becomes a safety net. That safety net will not be used 100% even if it is on a melee DPS if the group/tank are doing their job properly. Who is better to have that safety net on for the oh-***** events? A healer or DPS? (If you are having issues with enrage timers, then you are either pushing your gear to its limits or doing the fight wrong).

Edited April 5, 2012 by Kil-Gorbane

[midnitemonster]

"The reason to not guard a healer is because it is not a constant."

- I totally agree, and the fundamental aspect of that point was my main discussion earlier in this thread. When you have an ops team with DPS all going full out, the MT/OT need to be able to tank the mobs without use of guard. I understand that guard will help threat and control, BUT the drive should be for the team to work efficiently without the guard. My example was a team composition of 4 melee DPS all with high damage outputs - who gets guard at that point - the tank needs to be able to control threat in this situation and 2/4, 3/4, or 4/4 high end, non guarded DPS, is a scenario a tank needs to prepare for.

 

I realize that guarding a healer does not mean that this benefit is being used 100% of the time. But when the tank is able to tank without the crutch of guard then it really becomes a safety net and will not be used 100% even if it is on a melee DPS. And who is better to have that safety net on for the oh-***** events? A healer or DPS? (If you are having issues with enrage timers, then you are either pushing your gear to its limits or doing the fight wrong).

 

Okay I get your point but... why? Have you ever been in a group with that much melee dps? If you have 4 melee dps for Ops you put it on the one who does the most. Why do you feel Guard is a crutch? Are you one of the masochist players who needs things to be harder? Or do you think that having it as an oh-**** button is how it was meant to be used?

 

Now looks like you are hoping for the extreme group conditions to prove a point.

[Kil-Gorbane]

I appreciate the tone change.

 

"If you have 4 melee dps for Ops you put it on the one who does the most. Why do you feel Guard is a crutch?"

 

My personal take on this:

To clarify on the crutch comment. I feel that a tank should be able to perform and handle threat without the guard. With that being said, when I first start with a new group of players, my default guarded player is the healer because of that oh-**** event. I still feel it is better to lose a DPS than a healer. I realize that guard isn't much use until it is needed most. Now, with that being said, if during an ops we are having issues downing mobs/bosses because DPS are holding back then I will switch the guard. But my approach is this: try to plan out the fight with guard in mind as only a safety net; if that doesn't work, re adjust to high threat generator.

 

This is all I am trying to get across. I realize that I am not maximizing my individual tanking tools but instead I am utilizing my team's tools to compensate and make it a smoother fight.

[RDeanOU]

"Other than dps needs to kill better and tanks need to aggro better. You seem to want to make this overly complicated for some reason."

 

Bottom line is that both sides of the story can present arguments and experiences. Not everyone has a perfect group composition nor is every group made up of perfect players. I just wanted to make the point that guard on a healer may be helpful. I have presented my points. I know how to properly tank and I also know that group ops require flexibility in their planning. I am suggesting you guys open your minds and remove the constant battering and attacking. Especially when I have made several points that have yet to be countered or are just scoffed off. If you guys are unwilling to listen to an actual discussion then why are you even in these forums?

 

BTW I am not even the OP'er nor am I the only voice supporting that guard DOES NOT have to be on DPS all the time.

 

No, the bottom line is that you haven't a single valid argument.

 

Healers generate aggro so slowly that a 20% debuff to their aggro from guard is completely unnecessary and wasting the buff. There is no situation where a healer is generating the kind of aggro that they would EVER EVER under ANY circumstance need a guard buff.

 

No one here has a closed mind. We just understand how the threat mechanics work and know that slowing down the threat generation of the slowest threat generator in the group is completely moronic.

 

You have not made a single point that hasn't been countered. You clearly aren't paying any attention. Frankly, EVERY point you have made can be countered by the simple fact (which has been explained to you multiple times) that healers already generate threat so slowly that reducing it by another 20% is just unnecessary. Unless the threat mechanics change there will never be a scenario where this isn't true. There will never be a scenario where you are correct.

 

The reason people are getting frustrated with you and coming across as if they are attacking you is that you keep ignoring what they are saying. You keep grasping for the most extreme circumstances to come up with a situation where guarding a healer is helpful...not because it will ever matter and not because we can ever actually plan for these situations, but because you just can't admit that you are wrong about this. You are coming across as so hard headed and stubborn and unwilling to admit that you are wrong that people are getting very frustrated.

 

I'm sorry that you can't face the simple truth about this. I'm sorry that multiple people explaining to you how insignificant healing threat is doesn't help you understand why you don't need to help healers with their threat. I don't know what else can possibly be said to make you understand. I just wish you would stop trying to confuse any people that might be reading this thread trying to learn about this.

 

Guard the DPS. It is that simple.

[RDeanOU]

I appreciate the tone change.

 

"If you have 4 melee dps for Ops you put it on the one who does the most. Why do you feel Guard is a crutch?"

 

My personal take on this:

To clarify on the crutch comment. I feel that a tank should be able to perform and handle threat without the guard. With that being said, when I first start with a new group of players, my default guarded player is the healer because of that oh-**** event. I still feel it is better to lose a DPS than a healer. I realize that guard isn't much use until it is needed most. Now, with that being said, if during an ops we are having issues downing mobs/bosses because DPS are holding back then I will switch the guard. But my approach is this: try to plan out the fight with guard in mind as only a safety net; if that doesn't work, re adjust to high threat generator.

 

This is all I am trying to get across. I realize that I am not maximizing my individual tanking tools but instead I am utilizing my team's tools to compensate and make it a smoother fight.

 

Just because we can tank without guard doesn't mean we ought to do it.

 

When you first start with a new group you are wasting the buff by putting it on a healer. There is no oh **** situation where a healer is gaining threat too quickly because healers gain threat incredibly slowly.

 

It is not necessarily better to lose a DPS than to lose a healer. This has been discussed multiple times. With enrage mechanics in this game on every single encounter DPS are just as valuable as healers. Sometimes they are more valuable because sometimes they have the ability to dps a mob down after the healer dies by popping medpacs and defensive cooldowns.

 

Guard is a threat reducer. Planning a fight by using it as the worst bubble in the history of any mmo instead of using it to reduce threat generation is foolish. Not sure why that isn't sinking in.

 

You are hampering your team's tools but not using your own tanking tools to complement and enhance their abilities (using a threat reducer to give a dps more leeway on threat). You are making things more difficult than necessary...not making the fight go more smoothly.

Edited April 5, 2012 by RDeanOU

[TheSidehatch]

The values of Guard are so small in PVE that there isn't a valid reason to use it in a reactive manner. The threat reduction (which is arguably the primary function in PVE) needs to be active for a significant amount of time for it to hold weight. Deep in a fight, a tank should have enough threat with the Taunt mechanics that the 25% reduction from Guard is null because no one should pull aggro. Adds will not change this as their threat will remain constant. If your group is clustered together on a add-heavy fight, then I can see the value in placing Guard on a healer, but it isn't going to change enough to make it a requirement.

 

The 5% Damage Reduction is far too small for it to use reactively. 5% less damage on a low-health player isn't going to save them from death 9 times out of ten. The argument has already been made that a healer healing someone through 100% of the damage is putting forth little more effort than healing 95% of that damage. As a healer I am certain that you rarely let your friends reach 4% or less health.

 

4% of the total health pool of 15,000 hp is 60 health. Few (if any) attacks deal less than that in a PVE group situation.

 

Guard in PVP should almost always be used reactively with the 50% damage transfer. There is a large difference there, but this discussion was never about PVP application.

 

If I am still missing the points that you want addressed, I recommend that you list your points in a straightforward manner. I have read and re-read this thread several times (I was the first respondant after all) and I feel that we have more than addressed your concerns in several points.

[thorizdin]

Yes, the mobs attack the first person that causes aggro, but that initial aggro is just a default. The second you heal or shield that tank or anyone hits him they IMMEDIATELY start hitting that other person if nothing is done to keep aggro. Even throwing a buff on the initial aggro target is enough to take aggro from that person.

 

Testing and the combat log on PTS shows that buffs don't generate threat. Your other statements are correct though.

[Kil-Gorbane]

"No one here has a closed mind. We just understand how the threat mechanics work and know that slowing down the threat generation of the slowest threat generator in the group is completely moronic."

 

I'm sorry but you are still tunneling your vision. You refuse to look at the bigger picture that a healer MAY generate enough threat over multiple mobs when its low individual threat adds up on un-attended-to mobs. In this regard, you are claiming stats and information that has been shown wrong or questionable. Low individual threat, yes, but it is accumulated on all mobs. I am glad you have backed off from your original argument (% reduction on 0 is still 0), it is a start. Lets open up that mind a bit more.

 

"It is not necessarily better to lose a DPS than to lose a healer. This has been discussed multiple times. With enrage mechanics in this game on every single encounter DPS are just as valuable as healers. Sometimes they are more valuable because sometimes they have the ability to dps a mob down after the healer dies by popping medpacs and defensive cooldowns."

 

Only when the boss is under 20% is losing a DPS more detrimental than a healer. Thats less than half the fight. Most fights that have enrage timers are single target boss fights (and some don't even have conventional aggro tables). If you are losing threat to DPS during these fights then you are tanking wrong. NO tank has any excuse to lose threat on a single target. ALL DPS should be doing their best damage no matter what and guard should be nearly useless in this. L2P and stop confusing people.

 

"Deep in a fight, a tank should have enough threat with the Taunt mechanics that the 25% reduction from Guard is null because no one should pull aggro."

 

Don't say that too laud, calling guard null or useless is a big no-no in here.

 

"Guard is a threat reducer. Planning a fight by using it as the worst bubble in the history of any mmo instead of using it to reduce threat generation is foolish. Not sure why that isn't sinking in."

 

I am not saying use it like a bubble. I have already said that I know its primary function is threat reduction. Read some first.

 

"The values of Guard are so small in PVE that there isn't a valid reason to use it in a reactive manner."

 

I never suggested using guard in a rotation reactive manner in PvE like one would in PvP. Plus as far I know this conversation has always been about PvE. I did not bring up PvP except in responding

 

"You are hampering your team's tools but not using your own tanking tools to complement and enhance their abilities (using a threat reducer to give a dps more leeway on threat). You are making things more difficult than necessary...not making the fight go more smoothly."

 

The bottom line is that DPS should either be focus firing down hard mobs or AoE'ing grouped mobs. Tanks have tools to address those situations (single target tanking for the focused and area taunting for the spread out/grouped mobs).

 

"Testing and the combat log on PTS shows that buffs don't generate threat. Your other statements are correct though."

 

Can you expand on this? How did you test it? Multiple mobs/Guarded players/non-attacked mobs/taunted and un-taunted/etc. Also did you test DOTs/HOTs? I would like to hear more about this.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Kil-Gorbane

[thorizdin]

 

This is all I am trying to get across. I realize that I am not maximizing my individual tanking tools but instead I am utilizing my team's tools to compensate and make it a smoother fight.

 

The problem is that this approach is simply wrong in both regards. If you and the OT(often a DPS with taunt) doing your job your healers are never gonna have aggro and all the healers have to deal with in terms of damage are AoEs or damage from a Cleave.

Edited April 6, 2012 by thorizdin

[thorizdin]

 

"Testing and the combat log on PTS shows that buffs don't generate threat. Your other statements are correct though."

 

Can you expand on this? How did you test it? Multiple mobs/Guarded players/non-attacked mobs/taunted and un-taunted/etc. Also did you test DOTs/HOTs? I would like to hear more about this.

 

- Cloud Mind and all other class threat dumps (except those below) drop threat by 25%.

- Extrication, Intercede, and Force Camo (and mirrors) set the target's threat to 0.

- You need 30% more than the tank's threat to pull aggro, even in melee range (unless you're really close to the target).

- Taunt generates either 10% or 30% of your current threat (depending on how close you are to the target, see above bullet), even if you are the mob's current aggro target.

- Applying buffs generates either zero or an extremely small amount of threat, even ones involved with healing like Static Barrier/Force Armor.

- Threat multipliers stack multiplicatively (ie. an attack that generates 50% additional threat, done by a tank that does another 50% additional threat, would generate 225% of damage as threat).

 

This is the summary, there is a lot more details in the original thread:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=341126

[Kil-Gorbane]

I've read this:

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-Threat-conversation?page=7

 

But my question was whether you tested the default aggro mechanics. When I first read your response it sounded like you had in the test servers.

 

For example; this is the theory that I have been following (summarized best by one of the guys from sithwarrior):

 

"My prevailing theory at the moment is players have a minimum threat while in combat of X - that is after generating Y threat on a mob through damaging abilities a player's threat level is at X+Y (regardless of how combat was entered). Companions on the other hand do not have a minimum threat level while in combat. As a result in your test below after your cast you would be sitting at one threat while your companion would be at zero - as a result the pack would run towards you."

 

So that theory slightly covers our earlier talks with personal experiences with companions. But I think we all agree that is not as important to this discussion as the first part of the theory. The default threat of X. Meaning when a tank first enters the fray, he acquires a default amount of threat X on all mobs (attacked and not attacked). Thus even if a mob is un-attacked someone would have to surpass that default X threshold by 110% or 130%. Now if you factor in that a healing spell's 50% threat is split between all mobs AND factor in damage reductions like guard; depending on that default value X, damage reduction on a healer could be useful.

 

So what I am asking is, has anyone actually found that value X? People posting in here seem to have mixed personal experiences that suggest the default value X is significant while others suggest that its not. We know X is >0. And until we know for sure whether X is significant or not; the guard topic on a healer is NOT a useless conversation.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Kil-Gorbane

[RDeanOU]

I'm sorry but you are still tunneling your vision. You refuse to look at the bigger picture that a healer MAY generate enough threat over multiple mobs when its low individual threat adds up on un-attended-to mobs. In this regard, you are claiming stats and information that has been shown wrong or questionable. Low individual threat, yes, but it is accumulated on all mobs. I am glad you have backed off from your original argument (% reduction on 0 is still 0), it is a start. Lets open up that mind a bit more.

 

I have not refused to look at this picture of healers gaining threat over multiple mobs. Firstly, I never said healers got 0 threat and a % reduction on 0 is still 0. The fact that you think I was ever saying that in this thread shows that you haven't been paying attention. What I said is that reducing healer threat on mobs that no one else has touched isn't going to help because they are the only ones that have any threat at all on those mobs. 80% of their threat is still greater than the 0 threat that everyone else has on those mobs.

 

Yes they gain threat on all the mobs at once, but their threat gain is still extremely slow. Reducing it by another 20% just isn't doing very much good. They are still going to get aggro on mobs that no one is touching and they are still not going to get aggro on mobs that either the dps or tank are paying attention to. Guarding the healer will have ZERO actual effect in this situation. The only thing that will help the healer here is having dps that understand which mobs they are supposed to be killing first. Guarding the healer here does nothing.

 

 

Only when the boss is under 20% is losing a DPS more detrimental than a healer. Thats less than half the fight. Most fights that have enrage timers are single target boss fights (and some don't even have conventional aggro tables). If you are losing threat to DPS during these fights then you are tanking wrong. NO tank has any excuse to lose threat on a single target. ALL DPS should be doing their best damage no matter what and guard should be nearly useless in this. L2P and stop confusing people.

 

OK, I never said losing the DPS was always more detrimental than the healer. I said it sometimes was. You have contended that losing the healer is always worse than losing a dps. What about losing a dps in the early part of a fight? Do you have a hope of killing a boss before enrage if you lose half of your dps early in the fight? If losing a dps means a wipe than it isn't any better to lose a dps than a healer.

 

The way our threat works is that we build greater and greater threat with taunt. You can lose threat to a dps early in the fight before your threat values have ramped up from repeated taunts. Also, if there are aggro drops or resets then that dps will be gaining threat back more quickly than anyone else so it helps to have the guard on him in that situation to give me more time to build my threat back.

 

This really is the heart of your argument. You don't think we need Guard to help us manage threat. You think we are fine without it. So instead of using it to manage threat (which is what it is for) you think we should toss around the 5% damage mitigation to whoever is the squishiest person. No, we don't necessarily NEED guard, but why not use it and get what use out of it that we can? Why not get that extra leeway on threat? I think we should always maximize our tools and that doesn't change just because we have other tools. I don't think that ignoring the bulk of what Guard does is the way to get the most out of this tool. You do. That's where we disagree.

 

Also, I think it's funny that you think I need to L2P when you are apparently losing threat to healers. I'm fine. I put guard on the people that get use from it and I don't lose threat to healers. =P

 

I am not saying use it like a bubble. I have already said that I know its primary function is threat reduction. Read some first.

 

You know it's primary function is threat reduction, but you aren't using it for that purpose. You are telling people that they should be putting threat reduction on the person generating threat more slowly than everyone else. You ARE functionally reducing it to a crappy bubble.

 

The bottom line is that DPS should either be focus firing down hard mobs or AoE'ing grouped mobs. Tanks have tools to address those situations (single target tanking for the focused and area taunting for the spread out/grouped mobs).

 

Yes, we have tools. One of them is Guard. Now, Why are you so intent that we ought not get the benefit of threat reduction on one of our dps? I really don't understand it. You think we don't need it so you think using it is somehow leaning on a crutch. I think we ought to make the most out of it. Putting it on a healer is never getting the most out of it.

Edited April 6, 2012 by RDeanOU

[thorizdin]

A couple of things. I haven't tested on PTs because I didn't get copied over and I got tired of leveling a throw away character to duplicate my main on live. TLDR, I got to level ~17 on my test Jug.

 

There is a base threat that is triggered when someone goes into aggro range. We know that base threat is low because any actions that create any threat immediately draw attention of the mobs in range. So we can test with a fair amount of precision how much threat is generated by what actions and buffing in all the tested cases didn't result in any threat. That doesn't mean that there aren't any buffs that generate threat, but if there are they haven't been found yet. Healing generates threat on a .5 modifier so 1000 points of healing generates 500 threat to all mobs in range. This doesn't appear to be impacted by LoS, though that's difficult to say with 100% certainty. It doesn't appear that healing range (in relation to the mob) has an impact on the healing threat multiplier. Damage from healers follows the standard range modifier.

 

What is true is that the healer will almost never (and if correctly will never) be high on the threat list. Really the only way that a healer can even generate a large amount of boss threat is via AoE heals when a large amount of the raid is in range of his heals and that invalidates the idea that you should guard the healer even if the healer stayed (for some reason) in melee range of the tank at all times. The amount of threat just isn't doesn't justify the reduction from guard.

[Kil-Gorbane]

DeanOu: Stay out of this conversation. You are only adding confusion with your misunderstanding of the events and your lack of proper interpretation of other's views.

 

This is the heart of my view, this is the theory I would like to discuss:

 

The theory at the moment is players have a minimum threat while in combat of X - that is after generating Y threat on a mob through damaging abilities a player's threat level is at X+Y (regardless of how combat was entered). Companions on the other hand do not have a minimum threat level while in combat.

 

I'll break it down:

Companions on the other hand do not have a minimum threat level while in combat. - This just really adds a kink to our personal experiences being used for proof. I agree that companions should be left out from here on out.

 

The theory at the moment is players have a minimum threat while in combat of X - that is after generating Y threat on a mob through damaging abilities a player's threat level is at X+Y (regardless of how combat was entered).

 

General Attack Process:

1. An entering tank will immediately generate X threat (+% due to tanks added threat generation?) before any damage, heals, or casts. That threat relation is applied to all mobs. Thus there is no mob in the line of sight of the tank that has 0 threat.

2. Now factor in damage; the tank will have X threat on all mobs and +Y on ones it is attacking/taunting.

3. Now begin the DPS, quickly after the initial pull. The DPS will have to surpass the X or X+Y by 110 or 130% depending on which mobs they attack. (I understand having guard on one of these DPS allows that specific DPS to have a larger X or X+Y window)

4. Now the healer begins casting/healing. Threat generation for heals is at 50% and split between all mobs. A healer would have to surpass the same 110 or 130% threshold to pull. The healer is generating Z threat on all mobs where Z is (50%*Heal)/(Number of Mobs).

 

Now what seems to be at the heart of this debate is whether Z is significantly higher than X so that guard will not be helpful. Note that we do not know the value of X, and Z decreases as the number of mobs increases. In addition, as Z decreases and approaches X, the more useful guard will be on the healer. Some people's experiences suggest Z and X are close enough that guard is beneficial while others suggest otherwise. Until we know the value of X, this discussion is not and should not be one sided.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Kil-Gorbane

[RDeanOU]

Yes, you are so right. I am the one confusing the issue by trying to talk about reducing threat gain on healers being silly when this is clearly a thread about the value of initial aggro on trash pulls.

 

Why can't you just admit that guarding a healer is foolish? They gain aggro at an insignificant rate and everyone else in this thread knows it's foolish to reduce that rate further rather than guarding a dps.

[RDeanOU]

Until we know the value of X, this discussion is not and should not be one sided.

 

Such a transparent way to try to save face by not having to admit you were wrong all along.

 

We know the rate at which healers gain threat is less than half of the rate that everyone else does. Why does initial aggro value matter at all? Especially since we know that anything the healer does (save buffing) will outweigh the initial aggro amount and they will gain aggro on mobs no one is engaging.

 

It's not as complicated as you are making it.

 

If we are talking single target Z will never approach X+Y+30% (which is what would have to happen for the healer to rip aggro).

 

If we are talking multi-target then Z will never approach X+Y+30% on any mobs that are being hit by the dps or the tank and it will always surpass X+Y+30% on mobs that no one is paying attention to.

 

Guard will never affect that. Stop confusing the issue. This is about you wanting to reduce the threat gain of people who gain threat the slowest and not wanting to admit how foolish that is.

[RDeanOU]

By the way, since you clearly aren't paying any better attention to Thorizdin's posts than you are to mine let me highlight what he said about initial aggro.

 

There is a base threat that is triggered when someone goes into aggro range. We know that base threat is low because any actions that create any threat immediately draw attention of the mobs in range.

 

Reducing a healer's threat by 20% will not prevent them from surpassing this base threat any quicker. A single heal will be enough to draw the attention of mobs that haven't been taunted or attacked.

[Uchoo]

"If you're a healer and I'm trying to peel 2 dangerous dps off you, I'm going to start with Intercede and guard. I then depend on your reactions to determine how I act. If I lose half my health to guard damage while damaing and CC'ing the 2 dps, and you promptly force speed away and leave me to die, I'm probably not going to peel for you again."

[Kil-Gorbane]

"If we are talking multi-target then Z will never approach X+Y+30% on any mobs that are being hit by the dps or the tank and it will always surpass X+Y+30% on mobs that no one is paying attention to.

 

Guard will never affect that. Stop confusing the issue. This is about you wanting to reduce the threat gain of people who gain threat the slowest and not wanting to admit how foolish that is."

 

This is a faulty regurgitation of the theory. I wouldn't have to explain this to you if you had the brain capacity to follow it the first time. In the event of multiple mobs, if a mob is un-attacked then the healer is competing with X+30% not X+Y+30%. And the healer generates Z threat on all mobs.

 

If Z is > X+30% then said un-attacked mob is pulled by healer

If Z is < X+30% then said un-attacked mob will not be pulled by healer

 

Factors that affect Z:

- Naturally the healers healing will increase Z.

- Any threat mitigation with respect to healer will lower Z.

- As the number of mobs approaches infinity, Z approaches 0.

 

Thus this creates a quasi-boundary condition; as the group of players attacks more mobs, guard on the healer becomes more beneficial. This means more control over the mobs and easier application of AoE DPS. Since some AoE DPS do not have target limitations this would promote pulling larger groups of mobs. In the end, this would provide a quicker way to kill trash mobs.

 

This topic has always been about the application of guard on a healer or DPS. I have been arguing that guard does not always have to be on the DPS. I never said that guard's primary function is for damage mitigation. I realize this all changes for PvP, but PvP was not a topic. I have even admitted that I don't always put guard on the healer just that guarding a healer in some situations has benefits. I still argue that the loss of a DPS (other than sub-20 or sub 30 HP% on boss fights) is not as detrimental as the loss of a healer (healer can battle rez dead DPS). I still stand by all of this.

[TheSidehatch]

Off topic: There is a quote button just above and to the right of each post, so you don't have to use quotations or crazy colors.

 

L2PHPBB

[RDeanOU]

"If we are talking multi-target then Z will never approach X+Y+30% on any mobs that are being hit by the dps or the tank and it will always surpass X+Y+30% on mobs that no one is paying attention to.

 

Guard will never affect that. Stop confusing the issue. This is about you wanting to reduce the threat gain of people who gain threat the slowest and not wanting to admit how foolish that is."

 

This is a faulty regurgitation of the theory. I wouldn't have to explain this to you if you had the brain capacity to follow it the first time. In the event of multiple mobs, if a mob is un-attacked then the healer is competing with X+30% not X+Y+30%. And the healer generates Z threat on all mobs.

 

If Z is > X+30% then said un-attacked mob is pulled by healer

If Z is < X+30% then said un-attacked mob will not be pulled by healer

 

Factors that affect Z:

- Naturally the healers healing will increase Z.

- Any threat mitigation with respect to healer will lower Z.

- As the number of mobs approaches infinity, Z approaches 0.

 

Thus this creates a quasi-boundary condition; as the group of players attacks more mobs, guard on the healer becomes more beneficial. This means more control over the mobs and easier application of AoE DPS. Since some AoE DPS do not have target limitations this would promote pulling larger groups of mobs. In the end, this would provide a quicker way to kill trash mobs.

 

This topic has always been about the application of guard on a healer or DPS. I have been arguing that guard does not always have to be on the DPS. I never said that guard's primary function is for damage mitigation. I realize this all changes for PvP, but PvP was not a topic. I have even admitted that I don't always put guard on the healer just that guarding a healer in some situations has benefits. I still argue that the loss of a DPS (other than sub-20 or sub 30 HP% on boss fights) is not as detrimental as the loss of a healer (healer can battle rez dead DPS). I still stand by all of this.

 

There is nothing faulty about my regurgitation of your theory and despite your errors in understanding what I and others are saying I will refrain from insulting your intelligence the way you are insulting mine.

 

In the case of an unattacked mob it is still X+Y+30% that the healer is competing against, in that case it is just that the value of Y=0 for the unattacked mob since there are no attacks to consider. The theory doesn't change because one of the values is zero.

 

Fundamentally, the problem with this whole X,Y,Z equation is that the value of X (which you are so concerned about) is a trivial amount. Any value of Z is going to surpass X instantly. Guard will not affect this equation. This is what I was trying to point out to you when I highlighted Thorizdin's quote. Initial aggro can be overcome by ONE SINGLE heal spell. Guard doesn't keep the healer from gaining aggro on the mobs that no one is attacking.

 

Let me try this another way. Can you give us a very specific scenario when you think it is beneficial to guard a healer? You have vaguely referenced "oh ****" situations and talked about initial aggro on trash packs, but I am not clear when exactly you think that a guard buff will stop a healer from gaining aggro on a mob.

 

It doesn't stop them from getting aggro on untouched mobs in a trash pack and they should never ever be anywhere close in threat to the tank or dps in a single target fight so when is it going to be helpful?

[thorizdin]

Now what seems to be at the heart of this debate is whether Z is significantly higher than X so that guard will not be helpful. Note that we do not know the value of X, and Z decreases as the number of mobs increases. In addition, as Z decreases and approaches X, the more useful guard will be on the healer. Some people's experiences suggest Z and X are close enough that guard is beneficial while others suggest otherwise. Until we know the value of X, this discussion is not and should not be one sided.

 

The reason why most people will tell you that you should guard DPS is that X is consistently higher than Z. This may not be true at the very low levels, but it certainly is from the mid 20's and on. Because damage is a 1:1 in terms of threat while healing is a 1/2:1 AND because of how the stats work I don't there will be many/any exceptions to this. IF this game had separate stats for healing base power, crit healing rate, and surge healing rate things might be different but it doesn't. A Merc healer's healing output is governed by the exact same stats (Aim, Crit, and Surge) that govern a DPS Merc's damage output.

 

X = 1(damage)

Z = .5(healing)

 

The only scenario that I can see a healer grabbing threat is a Sorc with their AoE heal going with the entire Ops group getting heals and even then its going to take the DPS slacking off some. It would be an interesting exercise to see if a hybrid Sorc could max out their DPS and the AoE heal to see if that person could generate enough aggro to regularly generate more threat than the DPS though I doubt it would work unless the Sorc was simply far better geared than the rest of the raid.

 

 

Your theory on large groups hasn't been tested thoroughly (mainly because large packs don't last long enough) but its really an academic question since this game simply doesn't spawn that way. The closest your get is the Rakghoul HM FP where one person has to man the turret and rest try and not draw aggro. We just don't get the masses of mobs that you can aggro and tank like in other games and the initial draw is almost always going to be done by the tank with the healers as far back as possible.

Edited April 6, 2012 by thorizdin

[SamuraiLeo]

@RDeanOU:

 

where have you been getting ur numbers? if they aren't talanted to reduce threat, a healer that does 100 dmg generates as much threat as a dps that deals 100 dmg

 

Im curious what your sources are