Why the proposed 1.2 Pyrotech changes are poorly thought out

[Lu_Bei]

Wrong again. Global Cooldown is 1.5 seconds. An average of 2 attacks at 1.5 seconds each = 3 seconds. 6+3=9. Now are we done?

 

You're not factoring in rocket punch at 65%.

[Ryotknife]

Wrong again. Global Cooldown is 1.5 seconds. An average of 2 attacks at 1.5 seconds each = 3 seconds. 6+3=9. Now are we done?

 

and thats assuming zero lag and hitting abilities at the exact moment that the internal CD ends, so in all actuality, it is more like 10 seconds (unless they add timers)

[hoyasaxa]

You're not factoring in rocket punch at 65%.

 

You are mistaken.

[Theology]

Meaning proc will be between 6 and 7.75 seconds. How do you get ~50% out of that?

 

Dude, everything you think you know about whats happening with your alt's class is wrong..im sorry man, I'm really not trying to be mean but I can't break it down further.

[Lu_Bei]

Nobody with more brains than their usual breakfast is not believing you're serious. Why try so hard when it is so obvious? It was fun the first time, but now you start to make a fool out of yourself...

 

Maybe if you'd be civil I wouldn't try so hard to piss you off.

[Ryotknife]

You're not factoring in rocket punch at 65%.

 

last time i checked, 65% was not 100%.

 

hold on, let me call a math professor to double check....

[Wheem]

Yes it is PERFECTLY ok that a PT would have 100k more damage than another dps specced class.

Because only an idiot would balance classes that dont have similar abilities based on damage alone.

I'll give up my 100k extra damage advantage when you give me the utilities that Sorc, Juggs, Marauders get. In case you havent played a single huttball, Pyros dont win the games no matter how much damage they do. It's the juggs, sorc, stealthers, healers that get the wins.

All that utility is wonderful until some Powertech/Vanguard 5-GCDs your ball carrier (or his/her healer). You have better burst than an Operative or Scoundrel, don't need to initiate combat from stealth in order to achieve that burst, can do the lion's share of it from 10m (meaning you have a chance to do some amount of kiting against melee players - Op/Scoundrel can't), and have better utility than they do (since Op/Scoundrel has, you know, none). Oh and in rated games your damage-reduction bubble will be quite superior to vanish as a defensive cooldown (and it's already light years ahead of Defense Screen).

 

Plus you conveniently left out the utility of taunts and guard - things which are absolutely essential for healers and ball carriers (and useful for others as well, obviously). Do you lose damage by switching to Ion Energy Cell (and whatever the Imperial counterpart is called)? Not a particularly noticeable amount, to be honest. And if you're running the really popular hybrid tank/burst spec, you'll have that cell loaded anyway.

 

If you think Pyro/Assault Specialist damage isn't totally broken in the current state of the game, you're delusional. Personally, I think most of you realize how overpowered it is (you certainly do if you've played other classes, anyway), but are just drumming up whatever sophistry you can think of in order to try and avoid being nerfed.

[Theology]

It's not even 65%, its 60%.

[Lu_Bei]

last time i checked, 65% was not 100%.

 

hold on, let me call a math professor to double check....

 

Its pretty obvious I thought global cooldown was a marginal 1 second. Maybe if not every moles over the minor details of a video game like you do.

[GianBaal]

Maybe if you'd be civil I wouldn't try so hard to piss you off.

 

What did I do? I congratulated you on your first attempt. It was fun and people actually fell for it. But that is exactly when one should stop, as long as it is funny and seems innovative.

[hoyasaxa]

Maybe if you'd be civil I wouldn't try so hard to piss you off.

 

Listen, here is civil. You are either mistaken or blissfully ignorant of the changes that are being made to this spec. You are willfully ignoring the hard work that the OP did to explain everything in meticulous detail. To ignore his hard work and then comment in his thread is the definition of uncivil.

 

Please, take 5 minutes and read what he wrote. If any of it is confusing, ask. I promise to provide you with a civil explanation, and anything I cannot explain, we can try to figure out together.

 

Sounds good?

[Lu_Bei]

All that utility is wonderful until some Powertech/Vanguard 5-GCDs your ball carrier (or his/her healer). You have better burst than an Operative or Scoundrel, don't need to initiate combat from stealth in order to achieve that burst, can do the lion's share of it from 10m (meaning you have a chance to do some amount of kiting against melee players - Op/Scoundrel can't), and have better utility than they do (since Op/Scoundrel has, you know, none). Oh and in rated games your damage-reduction bubble will be quite superior to vanish as a defensive cooldown (and it's already light years ahead of Defense Screen).

 

Plus you conveniently left out the utility of taunts and guard - things which are absolutely essential for healers and ball carriers (and useful for others as well, obviously). Do you lose damage by switching to Ion Energy Cell (and whatever the Imperial counterpart is called)? Not a particularly noticeable amount, to be honest. And if you're running the really popular hybrid tank/burst spec, you'll have that cell loaded anyway.

 

If you think Pyro/Assault Specialist damage isn't totally broken in the current state of the game, you're delusional. Personally, I think most of you realize how overpowered it is (you certainly do if you've played other classes, anyway), but are just drumming up whatever sophistry you can think of in order to try and avoid being nerfed.

 

This. And, yeah, its pretty obvious they're trying to not get nerfed.

[Theology]

All that utility is wonderful until some Powertech/Vanguard 5-GCDs your ball carrier (or his/her healer). You have better burst than an Operative or Scoundrel, don't need to initiate combat from stealth in order to achieve that burst, can do the lion's share of it from 10m (meaning you have a chance to do some amount of kiting against melee players - Op/Scoundrel can't), and have better utility than they do (since Op/Scoundrel has, you know, none). Oh and in rated games your damage-reduction bubble will be quite superior to vanish as a defensive cooldown (and it's already light years ahead of Defense Screen).

 

Plus you conveniently left out the utility of taunts and guard - things which are absolutely essential for healers and ball carriers (and useful for others as well, obviously). Do you lose damage by switching to Ion Energy Cell (and whatever the Imperial counterpart is called)? Not a particularly noticeable amount, to be honest. And if you're running the really popular hybrid tank/burst spec, you'll have that cell loaded anyway.

 

If you think Pyro/Assault Specialist damage isn't totally broken in the current state of the game, you're delusional. Personally, I think most of you realize how overpowered it is (you certainly do if you've played other classes, anyway), but are just drumming up whatever sophistry you can think of in order to try and avoid being nerfed.

 

Typical 'You just don't want to be nerfed.' post. You didnt even bother reading the OP's post, did you?

 

Oh, ops/scounds don't have utility?

 

-heals

-flash-bang

-group stealth

 

P.S. We can't use guard as Pyro unless we sacrifice our DPS, just like Assassin's and Juggs.

[Ryotknife]

All that utility is wonderful until some Powertech/Vanguard 5-GCDs your ball carrier (or his/her healer). You have better burst than an Operative or Scoundrel, don't need to initiate combat from stealth in order to achieve that burst, can do the lion's share of it from 10m (meaning you have a chance to do some amount of kiting against melee players - Op/Scoundrel can't), and have better utility than they do (since Op/Scoundrel has, you know, none). Oh and in rated games your damage-reduction bubble will be quite superior to vanish as a defensive cooldown (and it's already light years ahead of Defense Screen).

 

Plus you conveniently left out the utility of taunts and guard - things which are absolutely essential for healers and ball carriers (and useful for others as well, obviously). Do you lose damage by switching to Ion Energy Cell (and whatever the Imperial counterpart is called)? Not a particularly noticeable amount, to be honest. And if you're running the really popular hybrid tank/burst spec, you'll have that cell loaded anyway.

 

If you think Pyro/Assault Specialist damage isn't totally broken in the current state of the game, you're delusional. Personally, I think most of you realize how overpowered it is (you certainly do if you've played other classes, anyway), but are just drumming up whatever sophistry you can think of in order to try and avoid being nerfed.

 

A. ops burst a hell of a lot harder than pyros ever can

 

B. ops burst people in a STUNLOCK

 

C. avoiding damage > pitiful 25% damage mitigation bubble that is practically useless unless you pop it at 100%. the only time that 25% damage is even somewhat useful is if the pyro has gaurd and is getting healed, which means he has the ball.

 

which begs the question, what IDIOT would toss the ball to a pyro pt, one of the worst ball carriers in the game (unless there was no other option). you are better off giving it to an op of all things and having the pyro pt gaurd/taunt the op.

 

D. ops are much more useful than pts in ald and void due to stealth and their ability to cap a node is second to no one. huttball, yea ops are screwed.

 

E. no pt cares that their burst is getting nerfed. they care about their sustained being heavily nerfed, and there are a group of pts that care that carolina parakeet is going extinct (again if we are talking about the bird itself) due to a different change.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Lu_Bei]

Typical 'You just don't want to be nerfed.' post. You didnt even bother reading the OP's post, did you?

 

Oh, ops/scounds don't have utility?

 

-heals

-flash-bang

-group stealth

 

P.S. We can't use guard as Pyro unless we sacrifice our DPS, just like Assassin's and Juggs.

 

Typical "I just don't want to be nerfed" post. Why do you mention stealth when he explained that stealthing to DPS is a handicap over PTs DPS?

 

 

What did I do? I congratulated you on your first attempt. It was fun and people actually fell for it. But that is exactly when one should stop, as long as it is funny and seems innovative.

I quote: "trolololo he wants us to use rapid shots every once in awhile XD roflmuffins".

Edited March 23, 2012 by Lu_Bei

[hoyasaxa]

All that utility is wonderful until some Powertech/Vanguard 5-GCDs your ball carrier (or his/her healer). You have better burst than an Operative or Scoundrel, don't need to initiate combat from stealth in order to achieve that burst, can do the lion's share of it from 10m (meaning you have a chance to do some amount of kiting against melee players - Op/Scoundrel can't), and have better utility than they do (since Op/Scoundrel has, you know, none). Oh and in rated games your damage-reduction bubble will be quite superior to vanish as a defensive cooldown (and it's already light years ahead of Defense Screen).

 

Plus you conveniently left out the utility of taunts and guard - things which are absolutely essential for healers and ball carriers (and useful for others as well, obviously). Do you lose damage by switching to Ion Energy Cell (and whatever the Imperial counterpart is called)? Not a particularly noticeable amount, to be honest. And if you're running the really popular hybrid tank/burst spec, you'll have that cell loaded anyway.

 

If you think Pyro/Assault Specialist damage isn't totally broken in the current state of the game, you're delusional. Personally, I think most of you realize how overpowered it is (you certainly do if you've played other classes, anyway), but are just drumming up whatever sophistry you can think of in order to try and avoid being nerfed.

 

Wheem you make some good points. The spec you mention is Carolina Parakeet, I believe, and did indeed revolve around the Tank cell and the DPS spec. However, in 1.2, that spec will be as extinct as the bird for which it was named. Completely gone. And not because of the change we are discussing here. Please reread the OP, and read the proposed 1.2 changes. I think you will be surprised.

[DTBountyHunter]

As a Powertech Pyro, I support this thread.

[Ryotknife]

Typical "I just don't want to be nerfed" post. Why do you mention stealth when he explained that stealthing to DPS is a handicap over PTs DPS?

 

 

 

I quote: "trolololo he wants us to use rapid shots every once in awhile XD roflmuffins".

 

yes, i can see how starting every fight in melee range could be a handicap...............

[hoyasaxa]

Lu_Bei, I am waiting to hear a response to my offer. In order to simplify, I will paste what I wrote on the previous page:

 

.....You are either mistaken or blissfully ignorant of the changes that are being made to this spec. You are willfully ignoring the hard work that the OP did to explain everything in meticulous detail. To ignore his hard work and then comment in his thread is the definition of uncivil.

 

Please, take 5 minutes and read what he wrote. If any of it is confusing, ask. I promise to provide you with a civil explanation, and anything I cannot explain, we can try to figure out together.

 

Sounds good?

 

*edit* To be fair, I don't truly have a dog in this fight. I have already respecced my (lvl 50, valor 61) Vanguard for Tactics (AP), and am finding it more in tune with my playstyle in any case.

Edited March 23, 2012 by hoyasaxa

[Theology]

Typical "I just don't want to be nerfed" post. Why do you mention stealth when he explained that stealthing to DPS is a handicap over PTs DPS?

 

 

 

I quote: "trolololo he wants us to use rapid shots every once in awhile XD roflmuffins".

 

 

Why is this guy still here?

[Lu_Bei]

Lu_Bei, I am waiting to hear a response to my offer. In order to simplify, I will paste what I wrote on the previous page:

 

 

 

*edit* To be fair, I don't truly have a dog in this fight. I have already respecced my (lvl 50, valor 61) Vanguard for Tactics (AP), and am finding it more in tune with my playstyle in any case.

 

Its not that I disagree with the OP's facts, I just don't see how it makes that big of a difference. You guys talked about people hitting 500k and 700k damage in a WZ, but usually its nothing near that. In all the 50 WZs I get into, it ranges from the 60k-330k range, with tanks and healers at the bottom and BH/Troopers at the top, along with the odd sorc. Reducing top tier damage isn't going to change much. A lot of times, games wind down to who has the most powerful DPSers in a game where everyone has 17-20k HP. Maybe nerfing the high end DPS will make winning less dependent on who has the best bounty hunters.

[GianBaal]

*edit* To be fair, I don't truly have a dog in this fight. I have already respecced my (lvl 50, valor 61) Vanguard for Tactics (AP), and am finding it more in tune with my playstyle in any case.

 

This deserves some explanaition, I believe. tactics is the adv. proto, right? How do you manage to get usefull dmg out of this? I tested it last week, soley because of the proposed pyro-nerf. And it was awfull!

 

I had alot of trouble killing targets, actually to the point I believe a nerfed pyro will have more killing capacity. So how do you manage to come by?

[hoyasaxa]

Its not that I disagree with the OP's facts, I just don't see how it makes that big of a difference. You guys talked about people hitting 500k and 700k damage in a WZ, but usually its nothing near that. In all the 50 WZs I get into, it ranges from the 60k-330k range, with tanks and healers at the bottom and BH/Troopers at the top, along with the odd sorc. Reducing top tier damage isn't going to change much. A lot of times, games wind down to who has the most powerful DPSers in a game where everyone has 17-20k HP. Maybe nerfing the high end DPS will make winning less dependent on who has the best bounty hunters.

 

I'm very sorry to tell you this man, but you have nothing to contribute to this thread. I don't mean to come off as an ***, and I think you would agree that I have been fairly reasonable, but the indisputable fact (and, if you agree with the OP's facts as you claim, you don't dispute this fact either) is that this spec will not be viable if the changes are implemented as stated. Not only will this spec's damage be tuned down, which it needed, but its resource management will be borked as well.

 

Perhaps a resource management system that was NOT directly tied into the overpowered burst would be a better fix. Carolina Parakeet spec is dead, so you will not see any Pyros guarding anymore. If you look at the charts released after the guild summit, about 3% of players play this Advanced Class, let alone this spec. It is beyond me why BW would want to make such a class LESS appealing.

[Macroecon]

So I can see where the OP is coming from but....

 

...here's my perspective. I'm a Merc Pyro. Power Shot is physically unusable in combat. It's 25 heat cost and end of cast effect means that half of all cast attempts wind up doing no damage and simply increasing your heat stack. Well OK, I may use it once or twice in a long match. Does that make me an incompetent Merc Pyro? Well I'm Valor 81 and I scored over 600K damage in a wz today with the next highest person scoring 280K. So no, I don't think I'm incompetent. Oh, and I didn't use PS a single time that match.

 

So what I'm basically saying is that I live my PvP life with RS being proc'ed only once every 15 seconds via Unload. Not 6. Not 4.5, as some are requesting. Once every 15 seconds. IF it procs. If it doesn't, well, time for a 30 second wait. I thought about the whole concept of getting a free RS 250% as often as I currently do. I thought about being able to use an instant cast ability to proc my RS, instead of standing there like a dope begging for someone to interrupt my Unload while I pray I will be able to get off a RS. I thought, dayum, that must be a pretty good life! I thought all these things because, well you see, I use Rapid Shots a lot (over 50% of my attacks) and so I get a lot of time to ponder life's intricacies.

 

Here are some other things to ponder:

 

-If a PT Pyro fails to get a RS proc, he simply hits FB again. If a Merc Pyro fails to get a RS proc then it is truely a fail.

 

-PT Pyro's RS ignores 75% of armor. Merc Pyro's RS ignores 15% of armor.

 

- PT Pyro has an ability with a 100% chance to put a burn mark on the target, prepping it for RS. That ability costs 16 heat and conveniently happens to be the same ability that procs RS. Merc Pyro has an ability with a 100% chance to put a burn mark on the target, prepping it for RS. It costs 25 heat and is a different ability than the one that procs RS, thus meaning the Merc Pyro generates more heat while being slower to proc RS.

 

So I get it that you don't like the PPA nerf. But you are still getting your Superheated Rail twice as often as a Merc Pyro. It's a bit tacky to complain about it.

[hoyasaxa]

This deserves some explanaition, I believe. tactics is the adv. proto, right? How do you manage to get usefull dmg out of this? I tested it last week, soley because of the proposed pyro-nerf. And it was awfull!

 

I had alot of trouble killing targets, actually to the point I believe a nerfed pyro will have more killing capacity. So how do you manage to come by?

 

[DERAIL]

 

Huttball: Im a pretty damn good ball carrier, and I have a shorter cooldown on my hostile pull.

 

Voidstar: With the buffed Pulse Cannon and my cooldowns popped, I can spread 30+k worth of damage in 3 seconds. Granted, it is spread over several targets, but if you have never seen a healer panic, it is quite funny.

 

Alderaan: with a faster riotstrike, I can lock down 1 or 2 healers, and make 3+ dps focus fire me down. With all that time, my team can usually either cap the node, or kill a few of their team.

 

I cant 1v1 worth crap, but Im a damn good team player.

 

[/DERAIL]