Why the proposed 1.2 Pyrotech changes are poorly thought out

[Theology]

New patch notes don't show anything about PT being re-adjusted. Really hope BW reads this thread Edited March 23, 2012 by Theology

[Wheem]

New patch notes don't show anything aobut PT being re-adjusted. Really hope BW reads this thread

As I understand it, the class changes for 1.2 haven't been officially announced anywhere, and the information that everyone is going on is based off of second or third hand accounts that may or may not even be accurate. Therefore, I'm hoping at least some of it is incorrect and/or incomplete information, since Sentinels and Marauders absolutely do not need buffs.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Wheem

[Theology]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=373427

 

^^ these being the new patch notes.

[Ryotknife]

If there's any class/spec in the game that needs a nerf - this is it. The burst damage kind of reminds me of what I was able to do with a Frost Spec'd DK in WoW a couple years ago, except even that required more lucky RNG than Pyrotech/Assault Specialist does. There's one Pyrotech in particular on my server that has literally unhealable damage, and routinely bursts people down in a tiny handful of GCDs - the spec is totally broken. In fact, I don't think it's too much hyperbole to say that it's one of the most overpowered specs in the history of MMORPG PvP; it requires 0 skill to be extremely potent with, and really is the epitome of faceroll.

 

'Course, buffing Sentinels/Marauders is still incredibly silly. Their burst damage is only slightly less ridiculous than Pyro/A. Specialist, and they don't really suffer the same (potential for) energy cell/heat problems.

 

Lastly, I gotta give the OP some props for recognizing that the burst damage needs a nerf, and not just joining the, "OMG WE'RE GETTING NERFED INTO THE GROUND I QUIT!!!!" crowd of bads.

 

thats funny, because i consider my pt to be one of the weakest pvp classes ive ever played. no defense, no mobility, very little utility in comparison to the other tanks in particular, but it does have dps that is very RNG-dependant based on procs (high burst damage when the procs go your way, pathetic damage when they dont). if i had to compare pyro pt to a class in wow? fire mage with about half of the utility/defense that the mage has.

 

 

and keep in mind i played a resto druid briefly (as in one season only) in Burning Crusade, destro warlock in wrath of the lich king, SL/SL lock in Burning Crusade. about the only spec ive played in swtor/wow that feels weaker than pyro was a druid in vanilla wow. the only time ive bursted someone down in 15-10 seconds is with lucky procs, all offensive CDs popped, relics/adrenale/pvp exp buff. needless to say, i can count the number of times this has happened on one hand, and you can chop that hand in half.

 

usually my fights last 30 seconds or so. i have never, not even once, been bursted by a pt in less than 10 seconds. i find it funny that people say pts have the best burst in the game when my low level assassin crits harder than my pyro pt in champion gear.

 

that said, i hate burst. i would not shed a single tear over losing burst. my favorite pvp specs in wow was feral (pre-cata when they turned it into a "lol kitty smash " bot) and affliction warlock. what do those two have in common? no burst, high sustained, and either defense/utility or defense/mobility.

 

i figured pts would be a highly mobile or defensive or high sustained damage class, unfortunately they are none of these three which is why i have rerolled a jugg (didnt want to jump on the sin/mara bandwagon). I have never liked my pt while i was leveling, and i still dont like playing it in pvp. i stuck it out because A. leveling takes forever in this game (compared to wow at least) and B. i figured it would get better. about the only thing i like about pt is how they play in pve (both tanking and dps is a hoot), and how they look. that and i never liked lightsabers....i know weird right?

 

also, a lot of burst problems could be solved if they removed the exp adrenale/pvp buff. or just put a dang combat log in.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Lu_Bei]

Bioware is basically making it so there is NO CHANCE to get the “good”/”stars align” RNG, and yet merely REDUCING the chance to get the “bad” RNG. Bioware, if you make it so there is NO CHANCE to get the good RNG, you have to make it so there is NO CHANCE to get the bad RNG.

 

The thing is, the stars don't need to align. The system never has heat problems. If you're having bad luck, just add a 'rapid shots' between every other use of punch and burst. I normally burn through burst and punches like crazy, then use vent heat and play like a sane person. Burning through the first volley maximizes your chances of the 'stars aligning'. You never have heat problems if you just pay attention and use rapid shots where you need to, so your whole premise is flawed. Of all the characters I've played, Pyrotech is the least susceptible to energy problems if managed decently.

 

 

The change seems to be meant as a nerf to the pure damage of the Pyrotech. No other class comes close in damage ratios unless they're standing in one spot dishing it out..

[Ryotknife]

The thing is, the stars don't need to align. The system never has heat problems. If you're having bad luck, just add a 'rapid shots' between every other use of punch and burst. I normally burn through burst and punches like crazy, then use vent heat and play like a sane person. Burning through the first volley maximizes your chances of the 'stars aligning'. You never have heat problems if you just pay attention and use rapid shots where you need to, so your whole premise is flawed. Of all the characters I've played, Pyrotech is the least susceptible to energy problems if managed decently.

 

 

The change seems to be meant as a nerf to the pure damage of the Pyrotech. No other class comes close in damage ratios unless they're standing in one spot dishing it out..

 

if you are just using flameburst/rocket punch with rapid shots thrown in between each attack, you will do pitiful damage. like full tank spec in tanking gear pitiful damage.

[Lu_Bei]

if you are just using flameburst/rocket punch with rapid shots thrown in between each attack, you will do pitiful damage. like full tank spec in tanking gear pitiful damage.

 

Obviously I mean using flame burst and rocket punch to get a free rail shot, and then use rapid shots after every few attacks to stay in around 3 energy ticks. What, do you burn down to 1 tick and just stand there? Like I said, I normally burn down as my opening and then use vent heat.

 

Context, my friend, context..

Edited March 23, 2012 by Lu_Bei

[Theology]

Obviously I mean using flame burst and rocket punch to get a free rail shot, and then use rapid shots after every few attacks to stay in around 3 energy ticks. What, do you burn down to 1 tick and just stand there? Like I said, I normally burn down as my opening and then use vent heat.

 

Context, my friend, context..

 

Vent heat is on a 1.5 minute timer. So you do crap damage in between every 1.5 minute cooldown? Sweet!

Edited March 23, 2012 by Theology

[Lu_Bei]

Vent heat is on a 1.5 minute timer. So you do crap damage in between every 1.5 minute cooldown? Sweet!

 

It really doesn't sound like you play a pyrotech. Its easy to stay in the 3 tick heat area from marginally cycling skills. A free -8 heat every other move is an incredible boon. If you burn through and just stand there, now I know why people come into WZ as a Powertech and only do 80k damage >.<

 

I mean, do you really not see the problem in throwing everything into the prospect of getting lucky, as opposed to playing safe and still having the chance of doing the extreme DPS of the 'stars aligning'?

Edited March 23, 2012 by Lu_Bei

[Theology]

It really doesn't sound like you play a pyrotech. Its easy to stay in the 3 tick heat area from marginally cycling skills. A free -8 heat every other move is an incredible boon. If you burn through and just stand there, now I know why people come into WZ as a Powertech and only do 80k damage >.<

 

I mean, do you really not see the problem in throwing everything into the prospect of getting lucky, as opposed to playing safe and still having the chance of doing the extreme DPS of the 'stars aligning'?

 

It's not easy in a fast temp PVP enviroment, with a terrible RNG mechanic that is now limited on it's 'feast' component but not it's 'famine' component. Where are you getting a free -8 heat every other move? Rail shot is now on average usable every 7.5 seconds. thats a ~60% Nerf to our heat venting compared to now, where we can Rail Shot every, on average, 3-4.5 seconds.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Theology

[Betaateb]

This is a great thread, I applaud the OP, he is dead on. No one is arguing that PT's don't need their crazy stars align burst toned down some, but the way BW went about doing it isn't the right answer.

 

The consequences of a 6 second railshot go far beyond the damage loss, heat gen is going to be a massive problem, and RNG can prevent a PT from doing any significant damage for far too long. The feast/famine analogy is perfectly said.

 

I play a sorc and can see how painful this nerf actually will be, BW has to see the heat issues this is going to cause, coupled with the potentialy for awful RNG being absolutely crippling.

[Lu_Bei]

It's not easy in a fast temp PVP enviroment, with a terrible RNG mechanic that is now limited on it's 'feast' component but not it's 'famine' component. Where are you getting a free -8 heat every other move? Rail shot is now on average usable every 7.5 seconds. thats a ~60% Nerf to our heat venting compared to now, where we can Rail Shot every, on average, 3-4.5 seconds.

 

If you play like I suggested you don't need to worry about it. I'm saying the system is fine the way it is, except 'when the stars align' its overpowered. Maybe you'll have to change your build up a little bit, maybe you wouln't be getting 400k damage every game. That's balanced.

[Theology]

If you play like I suggested you don't need to worry about it. I'm saying the system is fine the way it is, except 'when the stars align' its overpowered. Maybe you'll have to change your build up a little bit, maybe you wouln't be getting 400k damage every game. That's balanced.

 

How you suggested is unrealistic, noone will play like that, except for you. A DPS spec SHOULDNT HAVE to play like that. It is a pure dps spec. Auto attack shouldn't have to be spammed for the majority of it's damage. What you are saying is stupid. Sorry.

 

'Ya gaise i rolled a PT Pie-ro Tek to spam audo Attack!'

 

Give me a break

Edited March 23, 2012 by Theology

[LoKiei]

AP will be more fun to play and I have already specced into it but regardless have the minimum cooldown on railshot set to 6s and have flameburst/rocketpunch always trigger it.

 

Also note that it is a deflectable attack and requires a dot to exist on the target, these two things significantly reduce the usefullness of railshot.

[Lu_Bei]

How you suggested is unrealistic, noone will play like that, except for you. A DPS spec SHOULDNT HAVE to play like that. It is a pure dps spec. Auto attack shouldn't have to be spammed for the majority of it's damage. What you are saying is stupid. Sorry.

 

'Ya gaise i rolled a PT Pie-ro Tek to spam audo Attack!'

 

Wow. Way to embellish my stance.

 

I said 'use it every once in awhile', like, you know, every other energy using class has to throttle their chain in long fights.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Lu_Bei

[Theology]

Wow. Way to embellish my stance.

 

I'm not embellishing anything, and sorry if you feel that I am, but i've debunked countless arguments from people that share the same view as you in the Powertech forums, we made an entire thread about this very topic that the OP has linked in the first post.

 

The fact is, the heat management is wrecked. IM and TD will have to be used sparingly, only in accordance with Vent Heat. Auto attack will become our most used move post 1.2.

 

We did the math, crunched the numbers, we know what we're talking about. (Pertaining to the heat management of the tree post 1.2)

Edited March 23, 2012 by Theology

[Lu_Bei]

I'm not embellishing anything, and sorry if you feel that I am, but i've debunked countless arguments from people that share the same view as you in the Powertech forums, we made an entire thread aobut tis very topic that the OP has linked in the first post.

 

The fact is, the heat management is wrecked. IM and TD will have to be used sparingly, only in accordance with Vent Heat. Auto attack will become our most used move post 1.2.

 

If getting upset, using emotionally charged language , and using scarecrows is how you 'debunk countless arguments', I think you might be mistaking winning an argument with people not bothering to talk down someone whose way too involved.

 

Look, learn how to throttle your build. That's all I'm saying. Your number crunching doesn't take throttling into account, which, in the long run, is much more efficient than randomly burning.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Lu_Bei

[Theology]

If getting upset, using emotionally charged language , and using scarecrows is how you 'debunk countless arguments', I think you might be mistaking winning an argument with people not bothering to talk down someone whose way too involved.

 

Look, learn how to throttle your build. That's all I'm saying. Your number crunching doesn't taking into account that some people actually think.

 

At the same time, you've done nothing but tell us to change our build and rotation. This is not helpful, as everyone knows they're going to have to do that anyways, regardless of the ICD put on PPA. I'm involved because I dont want my class to be a joke post 1.2, which it will be if the 6 second timer isn't re-adjusted to 4.5.

[Lu_Bei]

At the same time, you've done nothing but tell us to change our build and rotation. This is not helpful, as everyone knows they're going to have to do that anyways, regardless of the ICD put on PPA. I'm involved because I dont want my class to be a joke post 1.2, which it will be if the 6 second timer isn't re-adjusted to 4.5.

 

What have you figured will be the amount of damage lost over the extra 3.5 possible seconds? What's your general damage at the end of a WZ compared to what it will be?

[Theology]

Considering WZs vary so much, that's almost impossible to tell. If you actually read the first post in this thread, the OP laid out, very simply, the math of average DPS/effectiveness lost in a post 1.2 rotation.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=370674

 

Here you can see exactly what the rotation will be post 1.2 with the alotted resource pool.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Theology

[Lu_Bei]

Considering WZs vary so much, that's almost impossible to tell. If you actually read the first post in this thread, the OP laid out, very simply, the math of average DPS/effectiveness lost in a post 1.2 rotation.

 

Say you do 285k damage in a game. TO about how much would you say this number will be reduced?

 

Also, the proposed problem is heat management to damage, which heat management isn't a problem for someone throttling their heat. From my viewpoint, you're asking that a PT should be able to burn non-stop and never hit max heat. No other class can do that.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Lu_Bei

[Theology]

Say you do 285k damage in a game. TO about how much would you say this number will be reduced?

 

Also, the proposed problem is heat management to damage, which heat management isn't a problem for someone throttling their heat.

 

Throttling their heat via only using rapid shots which equals a massive amount of damage lost per rotation. Im not going to hand you it on a silver platter bro, the math is on page 1, you can figure it out yourself.

 

If we'd normally be doing FB-->RP--> RS--> FB --> RP --> RS (on average)

 

to doing

 

FB --> RP --> RS-->AA-->AA--> FB --> RP --> RS

 

You can do the math with the numbers the OP provided on page 1.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Theology

[Xsorus]

If there's any class/spec in the game that needs a nerf - this is it. The burst damage kind of reminds me of what I was able to do with a Frost Spec'd DK in WoW a couple years ago, except even that required more lucky RNG than Pyrotech/Assault Specialist does. There's one Pyrotech in particular on my server that has literally unhealable damage, and routinely bursts people down in a tiny handful of GCDs - the spec is totally broken. In fact, I don't think it's too much hyperbole to say that it's one of the most overpowered specs in the history of MMORPG PvP; it requires 0 skill to be extremely potent with, and really is the epitome of faceroll.

'Course, buffing Sentinels/Marauders is still incredibly silly. Their burst damage is only slightly less ridiculous than Pyro/A. Specialist, and they don't really suffer the same (potential for) energy cell/heat problems.

 

Lastly, I gotta give the OP some props for recognizing that the burst damage needs a nerf, and not just joining the, "OMG WE'RE GETTING NERFED INTO THE GROUND I QUIT!!!!" crowd of bads.

 

Every time I see posts like this i can't help but to laugh...

 

Clearly you've not played a single other MMO if you're making statements like that....

 

I'll go down the list of Overpowered classes and setups off the top of my head.

 

UO - GM Wrestling Beta, Paralyze not breaking, Ebolt doing 100 damage (100 HP was the max)

 

EQ - Enchanters or Necro's, take your pick

 

DAOC - Smite Clerics, Early Scouts, Valkyries, Savages, Zerkers, Shadowblades, Dragonfang on Infil, Warlocks, Banshee's, Animist... ect ect

 

Rift - Pyromancer and Stormcaller, Dom/Chloro builds...

 

and that's just a few games off top of my head..

 

You talk about lacking a whole lot of setup, My Rift Mage, early in the games life, One shot... and I do mean one shot.. I mean 100% to death instantly, and you couldn't do squat about it.. so saying Pyro Powertech's are the most overpowered class in PvP in an MMO is moronic and is frankly the silliest thing i've seen.... Mainly since you have multiple classes in this game that can put out similar burst.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Paralassa
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[Lu_Bei]

Throttling their heat via only using rapid shots which equals a massive amount of damage lost per rotation. Im not going to hand you it on a silver platter bro, the math is on page 1, you can figure it out yourself.

 

I think you just don't want to say that the difference will be marginal. Difference in damage values has not been worked out in the main thread. You said you had worked it out elsewhere.

 

And as I said in my update, no other class can straight burn like you're suggesting. Why should they not need to throttle?

Edited March 23, 2012 by Lu_Bei

[Theology]

I think you just don't want to say that the difference will be marginal.

 

And as I said in my update, no other class can straight burn like you're suggesting. Why should they not need to throttle?

 

Read my edited post please. Having to throttle 'some' is fine. Having to throttle, just to be able to prep every 6 seconds for RS is NOT fine.

 

You're completely ignoring other aspects of the class too, like the other high heat abilities that are effectively unusable (if you wish to be ready every 6 seconds for PPA) because of their heat cost (TD/IM/DFA)

 

There's 2 threads with great info, this one and the one i linked you. I'm ot going to sit here all night and wlak you step by step through it tohugh. If you disagree, fine, i don't care. But telling people that the nerf is fine because they need to change their rotation to ~40% auto attack is not ok.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Theology