Why the proposed 1.2 Pyrotech changes are poorly thought out

[GianBaal]

Its not that I disagree with the OP's facts, I just don't see how it makes that big of a difference. You guys talked about people hitting 500k and 700k damage in a WZ, but usually its nothing near that. In all the 50 WZs I get into, it ranges from the 60k-330k range, with tanks and healers at the bottom and BH/Troopers at the top, along with the odd sorc. Reducing top tier damage isn't going to change much. A lot of times, games wind down to who has the most powerful DPSers in a game where everyone has 17-20k HP. Maybe nerfing the high end DPS will make winning less dependent on who has the best bounty hunters.

 

I tend to play in premades, and we hit 400k quite regulary (except the healer, of course). I have full BM on my pt, and i think i have a good layout in mods. Yet I am by far not the best dpser. Marauders, sorcs and the one dps-jugg we have top me nearly always. And whenever we hit a premade thoose hit 300k easily aswell (fortunately my prefered healer is really, really good).

 

if you only play in randoms you might not see this very often, i don't know. But i guarantee you that for every pvper (like thoose that play alot more pvp than pve), the bracket above 300k is the only interessting one. it is the one that determines what your character really can do, not what some players do with it.

 

Sure, my PT has a nasty dmgspike and if i time it right ( I need to use 3 abilities so that all hit nearly together) I can do 10k crit in 1.5 secs. But i feel in no way overpowered to other classes and the guys i play with. Quite the contrary, i have trouble to stay i line with some at the end of the day. And i have nothing but dmg, so no intercede, no charge, no cloak, no 99% dmg reduction... etc.

 

Your argument at this point is somehwat flawed. You can't balance a car-race and nerf the lamborghini simply because the bugatti is driven by a four-year old. it simply makes no sense.

Edited March 23, 2012 by GianBaal

[Theology]

So I can see where the OP is coming from but....

 

...here's my perspective. I'm a Merc Pyro. Power Shot is physically unusable in combat. It's 25 heat cost and end of cast effect means that half of all cast attempts wind up doing no damage and simply increasing your heat stack. Well OK, I may use it once or twice in a long match. Does that make me an incompetent Merc Pyro? Well I'm Valor 81 and I scored over 600K damage in a wz today with the next highest person scoring 280K. So no, I don't think I'm incompetent. Oh, and I didn't use PS a single time that match.

 

So what I'm basically saying is that I live my PvP life with RS being proc'ed only once every 15 seconds via Unload. Not 6. Not 4.5, as some are requesting. Once every 15 seconds. IF it procs. If it doesn't, well, time for a 30 second wait. I thought about the whole concept of getting a free RS 250% as often as I currently do. I thought about being able to use an instant cast ability to proc my RS, instead of standing there like a dope begging for someone to interrupt my Unload while I pray I will be able to get off a RS. I thought, dayum, that must be a pretty good life! I thought all these things because, well you see, I use Rapid Shots a lot (over 50% of my attacks) and so I get a lot of time to ponder life's intricacies.

 

Here are some other things to ponder:

 

-If a PT Pyro fails to get a RS proc, he simply hits FB again. If a Merc Pyro fails to get a RS proc then it is truely a fail.

 

-PT Pyro's RS ignores 75% of armor. Merc Pyro's RS ignores 15% of armor.

 

- PT Pyro has an ability with a 100% chance to put a burn mark on the target, prepping it for RS. That ability costs 16 heat and conveniently happens to be the same ability that procs RS. Merc Pyro has an ability with a 100% chance to put a burn mark on the target, prepping it for RS. It costs 25 heat and is a different ability than the one that procs RS, thus meaning the Merc Pyro generates more heat while being slower to proc RS.

 

So I get it that you don't like the PPA nerf. But you are still getting your Superheated Rail twice as often as a Merc Pyro. It's a bit tacky to complain about it.

 

Noone ever said that Merc Pyro wasn't getting shafted. But the numbers and logic in this thread specifically pertain to PTs, not Mercs. That's another beast that needs tackeled all together, but this thread isn't the place to do it.

 

Seeing as you play a merc, and not a PT, you don't really understand how this is crippeling us.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Theology

[Lu_Bei]

I'm very sorry to tell you this man, but you have nothing to contribute to this thread. I don't mean to come off as an ***, and I think you would agree that I have been fairly reasonable, but the indisputable fact (and, if you agree with the OP's facts as you claim, you don't dispute this fact either) is that this spec will not be viable if the changes are implemented as stated. Not only will this spec's damage be tuned down, which it needed, but its resource management will be borked as well.

 

Perhaps a resource management system that was NOT directly tied into the overpowered burst would be a better fix. Carolina Parakeet spec is dead, so you will not see any Pyros guarding anymore. If you look at the charts released after the guild summit, about 3% of players play this Advanced Class, let alone this spec. It is beyond me why BW would want to make such a class LESS appealing.

 

I do have to agree that the changes will probably make the class less appealing. What they should have done is made the other classes more interesting, rather than trying to drive out the appeal of the BH.

 

I have a 40 something Telekinetics specced Sage, and I have to say, it is terribly boring. The BH is what I thought the game would be: fast paced and over the top. I hope they don't make the suggested changes, but I do think they will add more balance to the game. Just probably not in the way it should be.

[iM_TeHCno]

Currently, the actual chance of three PPA procs in a row is, assuming 1 Rocket Punch and 2 Flame Bursts, 0.45 * 0.30 * 0.30 = 0.04 or a 4% chance.

 

I'm not a math major, but I know to find out the % chance would actually require Calculus seeing as its probability. So that little bit of math you have there is... pretty, but pointless.

[busterbone]

So I can see where the OP is coming from but....

 

...here's my perspective. I'm a Merc Pyro. Power Shot is physically unusable in combat. It's 25 heat cost and end of cast effect means that half of all cast attempts wind up doing no damage and simply increasing your heat stack. Well OK, I may use it once or twice in a long match. Does that make me an incompetent Merc Pyro? Well I'm Valor 81 and I scored over 600K damage in a wz today with the next highest person scoring 280K. So no, I don't think I'm incompetent. Oh, and I didn't use PS a single time that match.

 

So what I'm basically saying is that I live my PvP life with RS being proc'ed only once every 15 seconds via Unload. Not 6. Not 4.5, as some are requesting. Once every 15 seconds. IF it procs. If it doesn't, well, time for a 30 second wait. I thought about the whole concept of getting a free RS 250% as often as I currently do. I thought about being able to use an instant cast ability to proc my RS, instead of standing there like a dope begging for someone to interrupt my Unload while I pray I will be able to get off a RS. I thought, dayum, that must be a pretty good life! I thought all these things because, well you see, I use Rapid Shots a lot (over 50% of my attacks) and so I get a lot of time to ponder life's intricacies.

 

Here are some other things to ponder:

 

-If a PT Pyro fails to get a RS proc, he simply hits FB again. If a Merc Pyro fails to get a RS proc then it is truely a fail.

 

-PT Pyro's RS ignores 75% of armor. Merc Pyro's RS ignores 15% of armor.

 

- PT Pyro has an ability with a 100% chance to put a burn mark on the target, prepping it for RS. That ability costs 16 heat and conveniently happens to be the same ability that procs RS. Merc Pyro has an ability with a 100% chance to put a burn mark on the target, prepping it for RS. It costs 25 heat and is a different ability than the one that procs RS, thus meaning the Merc Pyro generates more heat while being slower to proc RS.

 

So I get it that you don't like the PPA nerf. But you are still getting your Superheated Rail twice as often as a Merc Pyro. It's a bit tacky to complain about it.

I think it comes down to Powertech Pyrotechs being a lot more dependent on Rail Shots than Merc Pyrotechs. For example, let's say currently a Powertech and a Mercenary Pyrotech both deal equal damage. However, as you said, "PT Pyro's RS ignores 75% of armor. Merc Pyro's RS ignores 15% of armor." Also, you also say that you "usually get a Rail Shot every fifteen seconds anyway". Currently Powertech Pyrotechs get a lot more Rail Shots than that. Therefore, Rail Shot comprises a lot larger portion of a Powertech's DPS than it does for a Mercenary's DPS. Thus, nerfing Rail Shot will have a lot larger impact on Powertechs than Mercenary Pyrotechs.

[busterbone]

I'm not a math major, but I know to find out the % chance would actually require Calculus seeing as its probability. So that little bit of math you have there is... pretty, but pointless.

 

I'm not a math major either, but I know that you don't need Calculus for simple probabilities such as the ones I've posted in this thread. Thanks for saying my math is pretty though

[Guioki]

I'm not a math major either, but I know that you don't need Calculus for simple probabilities such as the ones I've posted in this thread. Thanks for saying my math is pretty though

 

but pointless

[GianBaal]

but pointless

 

but tough :-P

[Theology]

Buster, again, kudos on the post. Just hope someone on the Dev team is reading.

[Lu_Bei]

So, I was thinking about the conversation earlier and I noticed some of the trolls were making some strange claims:

 

 

1. They said that putting a 4.5 second cap on the skill would equalize it its current average

 

It wouldn't with the global cooldown. That would still be around a 7 second average. Then they had the nerve to criticize me for making the same mistake.

 

 

2. They claimed to not want to use 'Rapid Shots' and then later admitted that they do incorporate the skill into their builds.

 

They then preceded to say that I claimed that I think its appropriate for 'Rapid Shots' to be the main skill used by the BH, which simply isn't true.

 

 

3. Have not responded to arguments saying the changes would be marginal, but simply continue to make general comments of dissatisfaction at the thought of changes to damage values.

 

Even the OP does't outright state how significant the changes would be, and makes no attempt to calculate how what changes would be needed to make the build work in 1.2. Nor are there data values given for such a 1.2 build. As I've argued, and the people drumming against the changes have constantly changed the subject or scarecrow'd examples I've given as literal language, the difference in damage values might be very negligible with a slight build change.

 

 

Does it sound like I don't know what I'm talking about, simply because I've made some very simple inaccurate statements, or that a vocal minority is drumming up any excuse to not get nerfed?

Edited March 23, 2012 by Lu_Bei

[Theology]

Make him go away! Please, somebody!!

[Theology]

I have a 32 Pyrotech PT. I thought Thermal Grenade was a KB that worked on players, but I was obviously mistaken. I have 31 valor, which, of course, isn't a feat for a Pyrotech because they're OP.

 

My main is a juggernaut in full centurion/champion gear.

 

Again for re-clarification for anyone that missed it.

[busterbone]

but pointless

 

Except I do think it has a point (and I wrote 10 pages to try get it across as clearly as I could)

 

 

 

3. [The trolls] Have not responded to arguments saying the changes would be marginal, but simply continue to make general comments of dissatisfaction at the thought of changes to damage values.

 

Even the OP does't outright state how significant the changes would be, and makes no attempt to calculate how what changes would be needed to make the build work in 1.2. Nor are there data values given for such a 1.2 build. As I've argued, and the people drumming against the changes have constantly changed the subject or scarecrow'd examples I've given as literal language, the difference in damage values might be very negligible with a slight build.

 

How do you expect me to do this when there is no way to currently calculate DPS? There is no way to have a DPS meter in game because currently there is no combat log. However, it is still easy to see how our DPS is going to suffer in this patch. As I said in the original post, attacks made while the internal cooldown is active are going to be horribly inefficient, to the point where we will be forced to auto-attack. I hope you can see that going from a rotation that comprised of 1000 damage (minimum) Flame Bursts and Rocket Punches that proc 2000 damage Rail Shots, to one that is filled with auto-attacks (400 dmg) is a DPS decrease.

 

Does it sound like I don't know what I'm talking about, simply because I've made some very simple inaccurate statements, or that a vocal minority is drumming up any excuse to not get nerfed?

I've said this before but I guess I'll say it again: No one is mad about nerfing Pyrotech burst damage. Nerfing Pyrotech burst damage in addition to causing rampant heat problems which will then nerf our overall DPS is too much though.

 

By the way, I didn't bother to address your first two points because it's not worth the time. Go reread the original post please.

[Lu_Bei]

Again for re-clarification for anyone that missed it.

 

32 is certainly deep enough in the Pyrotech tree to work out the build

 

Of course, I can't point out holes in your QQing because I'm not the same level as you. Okay. You think anyone whose 50 can't join a WZ and see that they normally score way over everyone else in DPS?

[Theology]

Meh, you're just being immature now. You made up random numbers, then when i said how absurd that was, you turn it around to say that I said it's okay that we do 330k to sorc's 180k?

 

Here, Arsenal merc in my guild: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/dps31512.jpg/

 

And a DPS sorc: http://www.shut-out.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=downloadattachmentpage&board=topthis&thread=2&post=84

 

And a Concealment Operative: http://www.shut-out.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=downloadattachmentpage&board=topthis&thread=2&post=95

 

And me (Parallel): http://www.shut-out.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=downloadattachmentpage&board=topthis&thread=2&post=3

 

 

Please leave this thread now.

 

Again, please look. Stop being absolutely ridiculous.

[Lu_Bei]

I hope you can see that going from a rotation that comprised of 1000 damage (minimum) Flame Bursts and Rocket Punches that proc 2000 damage Rail Shots, to one that is filled with auto-attacks (400 dmg) is a DPS decrease.

I'm pretty sure that's the point. Stacking out 90% armor pen with infinite energy is a no-brainer compared to the options available for other classes.

[Theology]

I'm pretty sure that's the point. Stacking out 90% armor pen with infinite energy is a no-brainer compared to the options available for other classes.

 

Move along, nothing to see here folks.

[Lu_Bei]

Move along, nothing to see here folks.

 

It takes around a minute to wind down a pure burning Pyro, longer if hes lucky. If they throttle just a little bit you'll never go under 3 pips. Other classes have to throttle significantly more.

 

Next BW needs to nerf your post count with all the double-posts and "trollol" comments.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Lu_Bei

[busterbone]

I'm pretty sure that's the point. Stacking out 90% armor pen with infinite energy is a no-brainer compared to the options available for other classes.

 

Infinite energy? How can you say that with a straight face? If you have played a level 50 Pyrotech (which you haven't) you would know that our energy is highly RNG dependent. All you know is that one time a Pyrotech got lucky and bursted you down. You will never remember the time the Pyrotech got unlucky and hit you like a wet noodle. Bioware is eliminating the "good" (stars align-- whatever you want to call it) RNG chance with this patch. Which means Bioware is eliminating our massive burst / massive heat regen capabilities. This is fine, great even. As long as they make it so we never get the horrible no-proc streaks where we hit like a wet noodle. They are not doing this in 1.2, they are just getting rid of our "good" RNG. Now do you understand why we are against the changes? (BTW this was all clearly stated in the OP)

[Theology]

Buster, i'd like to see this thread, combined with mine in the Powertech forums over in the PTS section where it's more likely to be seen by, not only testers, but the Devs as well. How could we do this?

[Lu_Bei]

Infinite energy? How can you say that with a straight face? If you have played a level 50 Pyrotech (which you haven't) you would know that our energy is highly RNG dependent. All you know is that one time a Pyrotech got lucky and bursted you down. You will never remember the time the Pyrotech got unlucky and hit you like a wet noodle. Bioware is eliminating the "good" (stars align-- whatever you want to call it) RNG chance with this patch. Which means Bioware is eliminating our massive burst / massive heat regen capabilities. This is fine, great even. As long as they make it so we never get the horrible no-proc streaks where we hit like a wet noodle. They are not doing this in 1.2, they are just getting rid of our "good" RNG. Now do you understand why we are against the changes? (BTW this was all clearly stated in the OP)

 

The same RNG mechanics apply to a 32 Pyro as they do a 50 and you know it. I know the 'stars align' moment doesn't happen very often, but you're assuming that its the problem. And then what you're asking for is a compromise for loosing an imbalanced trait.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Lu_Bei

[busterbone]

The same RNG mechanics apply to a 32 Pyro as they do a 50 and you know it. I know the 'stars align' moment doesn't happen very often, but you're assuming that its the problem. And then what you're asking for is a compromise for loosing an imbalanced trait.

 

Are you trying to say that you, a lvl 32 Pyro, has a better grasp of how a level 50 Pyrotech works than... a lvl 50 Pyro? Do you even know what lvl 50 Pyros hit for? Do you know the kind of health pools at 50? Do you have any idea what it is like to play a lvl 50 Pyrotech?

 

The 'stars align' moment is the problem. Maybe not for you, at lvl 32, because getting back-to-back 1000 crits isn't special. At level 50 getting 3 back to back 3.7k crits is a problem. You don't think that's a problem?

 

And how many times do I have to say this: we are not just losing our "imbalanced trait" (burst), we are taking a massive hit to our heat regen and overall DPS capabilities too.

[DarthWannaBe]

most the nerfs in 1.2 are just to shut up people that can't play their classes well. If they really wanted to balance classes out they'd be buffing instead of nerfing so hard. More evidence that bw is clueless what works and what makes things worse.

[Lu_Bei]

Are you trying to say that you, a lvl 32 Pyro, has a better grasp of how a level 50 Pyrotech works than... a lvl 50 Pyro? Do you even know what lvl 50 Pyros hit for? Do you know the kind of health pools at 50? Do you have any idea what it is like to play a lvl 50 Pyrotech?

 

The 'stars align' moment is the problem. Maybe not for you, at lvl 32, because getting back-to-back 1000 crits isn't special. At level 50 getting 3 back to back 3.7k crits is a problem. You don't think that's a problem?

 

And how many times do I have to say this: we are not just losing our "imbalanced trait" (burst), we are taking a massive hit to our heat regen and overall DPS capabilities too.

 

Its actually more like 2.5k crits, which is far more potent in low end PvP than a 3.7k crit on someone with 17k HP. Do you not know that such values are relative?

 

All this stuff about being 50 is just appeal to authority. "oh, I have a 50 pyro and you don't so I know what I'm talking about". Its quite self defeating, because I have a level 50 Juggernaut and obviously I know the health pools. Also, you've already told everyone what level 50 pyros hit for, so that's no mystery either. Derp, derp.

 

I've been saying, maybe there's a way to make the build work effectively around the changes. You don't want to hear that, it has to be a 4.5 second average proc. You haven't even really offered an alternative, just that the current system is OP and that the changes are too much, then masking an argument for keeping the current system as a "win-win".

Edited March 23, 2012 by Lu_Bei

[busterbone]

Its actually more like 2.5k crits, which is far more potent in low end PvP than a 3.7k crit on someone with 17k HP. Do you not know that such values are relative?

What are you trying to say? I am literally saying that 3 3.7k crits in a row is OP, and that that should be nerfed. Are you disagreeing with this? Are you trying to say that our burst is currently underpowered?

 

All this stuff about being 50 is just appeal to authority. "oh, I have a 50 pyro and you don't so I know what I'm talking about". Its quite self defeating, because I have a level 50 Juggernaut and obviously I know the health pools.

I just thought it was amusing that you state you have a level 32 Pyro as if it has any relevance. You not being a level 50 Pyrotech is not why I think you don't know what you're talking about. I think you don't know what you're talking about because of things like:

 

-You thought the global cooldown was 1 second.

-You thought Rocket Punch is going to get a 65% chance to proc PPA.

-You thought Thermal Grenade (I assume you mean Thermal Detonator) was a knock-back.

-You stated that "Pyrotechs, on average, deal 100k more dmg than any other DPS specced class". You are basing this on what exactly?

-You say Pyrotechs have infinite heat.

-You say Pyrotechs get "a free -8 heat move every other move"

-You say "Maybe nerfing the high end DPS will make winning less dependent on who has the best bounty hunters."

-You say "It takes around a minute to wind down a pure burning Pyro, longer if hes lucky"

 

I've pulled all these quotes right out of this thread.

 

Also, you've already told everyone what level 50 pyros hit for, so that's no mystery either. Derp, derp.

Are you seriously telling me to derp derp? The entire reason I posted the damage values of our attacks is to give people like you, who don't play Pyrotechs at level 50, an idea of how the class works and what we hit for.

 

I've been saying, maybe there's a way to make the build work effectively around the changes. You don't want to hear that, it has to be a 4.5 second average proc. You haven't even really offered an alternative,

I seem to recall typing at least four alternatives in the original post.

 

just that the current system is OP

Again, is there something wrong with me saying that our burst is currently OP?

 

and that the changes are too much, then masking an argument for keeping the current system as a "win-win".

Yes, I think that the current changes are too much. I've provided a lot of math and examples (my original post was 10 pages long in Word) to back me up. You back up your arguments with completely untrue statements (see above), and anecdotes from your level 32 Pyrotech.