SWTOR and the Giant Contradiction.

[genesiser]

Before I start, let me say that I have a feeling a forum manager will see this and think this is about dps meters and want to close the thread, but while it is partly about that, it is more about boss mechanics.

 

When you look at boss mechanics in this game it is clear that their favorite boss mechanic is the enrage timer. If you don't kill a boss in x amount of time, the boss will enrage. Every HM FP has at least one boss, EV ran on normal mode has 4 out of the 5 bosses with an enrage timer and hard mode every boss has an enrage timer. In KP normal mode, 3 out of 5 bosses have an enrage timer and on hard mode, every boss has an enrage timer.

 

So basically, they tell the player base that if you want to complete any dungeon, your dps has to do at least x amount of dps or chances are you will end up wiping. By using this mechanic on many bosses, it only pushes the player base to have the want/need to be able to evaluate their group members to see if they have the required dps to down the bosses.

 

Now here's the contradiction. On one hand they want you to have the right amount of dps, but on the other hand they want to make it very hard to see if the dps in your group has the required dps by not allowing the use of damage meters or public combat logs. Currently, the only way to see if your group has the dps to beat an enrage timer is by... getting killed by the boss. When that happens you know your group doesn't have the dps, but you don't know WHO doesn't have the dps so you don't know who to help improve their gameplay or for some people, who to replace. In 1.2, you'll have to have each member of the group save the file, run a parser, upload the data, have some members of the group look over the logs, and finally see which person has the required dps. This will take about 20 minutes and it's very cumbersome.

 

So basically they are going to have to make a decision at some point. Either get away from the enrage mechanic so that instead of dps mattering it's group skill and coordination that matters, or they are going to have to give us the ability to see who in the group has the dps required for the fight by giving us public logs or damage meters. Whether they realize it or not, their boss designers are in a huge contradiction with their public policy designers.

 

TLDR: If you don't want to have a situation where people judge others dps, then don't use boss mechanics that promote that behavior.

Edited March 20, 2012 by genesiser

[Sbolla]

Mate , that's the only mechanic this engine/ui is capable of ... enrage timers and jumping.

[Mrs_Murder]

Enrage timers is one of the stupidest features in newer MMOs. It's ridiculous.

[Melacon]

When you look at boss mechanics in this game it is clear that their favorite boss mechanic is the enrage timer. If you don't kill a boss in x amount of time, the boss will enrage. Every HM FP has at least one boss, EV ran on normal mode has 4 out of the 5 bosses with an enrage timer and hard mode every boss has an enrage timer. In KP normal mode, 3 out of 5 bosses have an enrage timer and on hard mode, every boss has an enrage timer.

 

So basically, they tell the player base that if you want to complete any dungeon, your dps has to do at least x amount of dps or chances are you will end up wiping. By using this mechanic on many bosses, it only pushes the player base to have the want/need to be able to evaluate their group members to see if they have the required dps to down the bosses.

 

Now here's the contradiction. On one hand they want you to have the right amount of dps, but on the other hand they want to make it very hard to see if the dps in your group has the required dps by not allowing the use of damage meters or public combat logs. Currently, the only way to see if your group has the dps to beat an enrage timer is by... getting killed by the boss. When that happens you know your group doesn't have the dps, but you don't know WHO doesn't have the dps so you don't know who to help improve their gameplay or for some people, who to replace. In 1.2, you'll have to have each member of the group save the file, run a parser, upload the data, have some members of the group look over the logs, and finally see which person has the required dps. This will take about 20 minutes and it's very cumbersome.

 

So basically they are going to have to make a decision at some point. Either get away from the enrage mechanic so that instead of dps mattering it's group skill and coordination that matters, or they are going to have to give us the ability to see who in the group has the dps required for the fight by looking at logs in a timely fashion. Whether they realize it or not, their boss designers are in a huge contradiction with their public policy designers.

 

I think they don't have public logs because of performance issues honestly. The game has problems enough rendoring more than 10 people, or even spamming an ability you can't use (watch fps when spamming red text), can you imagine it trying to capture every ability going on around you?

 

But you are right, we started bringing some pugs to raids to get others some gear since we are bored and they all say "Oh ya, im good to go!"

 

Replace two dps with these guys and hit enrage timers which we haven't seen in 2 months, so now we just pug one guy a raid to make sure we aren't wasteing time. Would be nice to at least be able to evaluate people and help them instead of saying "well, with you we hit enrage timer and cost everyone 25k, without you we make it, l2p"

[Harleyz]

There not in it for the long run. Suprising people are just realising this now.

[snowmon]

Enrage timers is one of the stupidest features in newer MMOs. It's ridiculous.

 

it is if they dont give you the right tools to see if you are doing it right...(dps meters) this is my biggest issue, if u dont want dps meters then dont bloody use enrage timers.

[Draylore]

Enrage timers are stupid.

 

But from a software coding perspective I understand why so many designers enjoy using them. Its a extremely cheap,lazy and easy way to fool players into thinking something is challenging without having to design/code a good encounter.

[Frostyforce]

I believe I remember seeing a picture from early beta where there were combat logs in the game so gg bioware.

[kevlarto]

Enrage timers is one of the stupidest features in newer MMOs. It's ridiculous.

 

along with radiance, Heroic defense, all silly ideas from other games that killed the fun factor for allot of people..

Edited March 20, 2012 by kevlarto

[Drewser]

When you look at boss mechanics in this game it is clear that their favorite boss mechanic is the enrage timer. If you don't kill a boss in x amount of time, the boss will enrage. Every HM FP has at least one boss, EV ran on normal mode has 4 out of the 5 bosses with an enrage timer and hard mode every boss has an enrage timer. In KP normal mode, 3 out of 5 bosses have an enrage timer and on hard mode, every boss has an enrage timer.

 

So basically, they tell the player base that if you want to complete any dungeon, your dps has to do at least x amount of dps or chances are you will end up wiping. By using this mechanic on many bosses, it only pushes the player base to have the want/need to be able to evaluate their group members to see if they have the required dps to down the bosses.

 

Now here's the contradiction. On one hand they want you to have the right amount of dps, but on the other hand they want to make it very hard to see if the dps in your group has the required dps by not allowing the use of damage meters or public combat logs. Currently, the only way to see if your group has the dps to beat an enrage timer is by... getting killed by the boss. When that happens you know your group doesn't have the dps, but you don't know WHO doesn't have the dps so you don't know who to help improve their gameplay or for some people, who to replace. In 1.2, you'll have to have each member of the group save the file, run a parser, upload the data, have some members of the group look over the logs, and finally see which person has the required dps. This will take about 20 minutes and it's very cumbersome.

 

So basically they are going to have to make a decision at some point. Either get away from the enrage mechanic so that instead of dps mattering it's group skill and coordination that matters, or they are going to have to give us the ability to see who in the group has the dps required for the fight by giving us public logs or damage meters. Whether they realize it or not, their boss designers are in a huge contradiction with their public policy designers.

 

With the coming logs and training dummies guilds we easily be able to measure their DPS.

[wifeaggro]

With the coming logs and training dummies guilds we easily be able to measure their DPS.

 

They will not. those are out of game logs you have to be out of game to see there will be no real time spec tweaking or rotation modifications. its the most ridiculous excuse for damage logs. we need DPS meeters.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Parali
rude

[genesiser]

With the coming logs and training dummies guilds we easily be able to measure their DPS.

 

Will you be able to? Yes, in theory. Easily? Heck no. Easy is being able to do it on the fly and looking at a parser or damage meter and seeing everyone's data so you can look at it and see who is or isn't doing the required dps. As I stated in the original post, in 1.2 you will have to have each member run the parser, upload the data or send it to someone, have that person look over each and every log and decide who is or isn't doing the correct dps. That is very time consuming. Why are they going to have to someone look over it? Because it's easy to lie about your numbers especially when it is you that is the one not performing.

 

Anyway, like I said. Either remove enrage timers or give us public logs for quick and easy evaluation.

Edited March 20, 2012 by genesiser

[Blackardin]

When you look at boss mechanics in this game it is clear that their favorite boss mechanic is the enrage timer. If you don't kill a boss in x amount of time, the boss will enrage. Every HM FP has at least one boss, EV ran on normal mode has 4 out of the 5 bosses with an enrage timer and hard mode every boss has an enrage timer. In KP normal mode, 3 out of 5 bosses have an enrage timer and on hard mode, every boss has an enrage timer.

 

So basically, they tell the player base that if you want to complete any dungeon, your dps has to do at least x amount of dps or chances are you will end up wiping. By using this mechanic on many bosses, it only pushes the player base to have the want/need to be able to evaluate their group members to see if they have the required dps to down the bosses.

 

Now here's the contradiction. On one hand they want you to have the right amount of dps, but on the other hand they want to make it very hard to see if the dps in your group has the required dps by not allowing the use of damage meters or public combat logs. Currently, the only way to see if your group has the dps to beat an enrage timer is by... getting killed by the boss. When that happens you know your group doesn't have the dps, but you don't know WHO doesn't have the dps so you don't know who to help improve their gameplay or for some people, who to replace. In 1.2, you'll have to have each member of the group save the file, run a parser, upload the data, have some members of the group look over the logs, and finally see which person has the required dps. This will take about 20 minutes and it's very cumbersome.

 

So basically they are going to have to make a decision at some point. Either get away from the enrage mechanic so that instead of dps mattering it's group skill and coordination that matters, or they are going to have to give us the ability to see who in the group has the dps required for the fight by giving us public logs or damage meters. Whether they realize it or not, their boss designers are in a huge contradiction with their public policy designers.

 

didn't have them in EQ. Didn't have them for a long while in Wow. We still cleared content.

 

What damage meters did was allow people to min max, and therefore trivialize content. This, in turn, required the development team to ramp up and fine tune their content around mods rather then player interest. The cycle continued until the last few dungeons in wow were so unforgiving that the loss of a single dps could cause you to miss the enrage timer. It required everyone to "ramp up", min, max, and spend more time working outside of raids then they did doing the actual raid.

 

Meters are a canard. They do not make content "easier", they just begin a cycle of ****** content up to implosion, which is what occurred in Wow with the collapse of the casual guild and the eventual migration away from the game.

 

They are a crutch. They are not needed. they are short sighted. People are completing content without them.

[Drewser]

They will not. those are out of game logs you have to be out of game to see there will be no real time spec tweaking or rotation modifications. its the most ridiculous excuse for damage logs. we need DPS meeters.

 

Wrong. Sure it is a bit more work but it will provide all the info needed.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Parali
bad quote

[Lord_of_Stone]

LOL

 

Who cares. Just beat EV for the first time last week. Had to make my own guild, since the one i joined previously died, to do it. Sometimes I wonder if you guys want to play videogames..... or just read a bunch of numbers and calculate accordingly.

 

Bioware has said that they dont have DPS meters, threat meters, or target of target because they want players to concentrate on THE GAME, not numbers.

 

Hardcore raiders dont like it? Theres the door. See ya!

[Drewser]

Will you be able to? Yes, in theory. Easily? Heck no. Easy is being able to do it on the fly and looking at a parser or damage meter and seeing everyone's data so you can look at it and see who is or isn't doing the required dps. As I stated in the original post, in 1.2 you will have to have each member run the parser, upload the data or send it to someone, have that person look over each and every log and decide who is or isn't doing the correct dps. That is very time consuming. Why are they going to have to someone look over it? Because it's easy to lie about your numbers especially when it is you that is the one not performing.

 

Anyway, like I said. Either remove enrage timers or give us public logs for quick and easy evaluation.

 

Nope. You are making it more complex than it needs to be. Just have guild members playing DPS characters run their normal rotation on a combat dummy submit that log and compare.

[Blackardin]

Wrong. Sure it is a bit more work but it will provide all the info needed.

 

There is no question here. You are right.

 

The question is how will the introduction of meters enhance the game over the long haul. How will we prevent them from controlling content and how will we prevent content from spiraling out of control once they are implemented?

 

Saying that damage meters will work to determine dps output does not demonstrate how they will improve the game.

[Harleyz]

LOL

 

Who cares. Just beat EV for the first time last week. Had to make my own guild, since the one i joined previously died, to do it. Sometimes I wonder if you guys want to play videogames..... or just read a bunch of numbers and calculate accordingly.

 

Bioware has said that they dont have DPS meters, threat meters, or target of target because they want players to concentrate on THE GAME, not numbers.

 

Hardcore raiders dont like it? Theres the door. See ya!

 

And your favourite mmo just left with them.

[TheBBP]

didn't have them in EQ. Didn't have them for a long while in Wow. We still cleared content.

 

What damage meters did was allow people to min max, and therefore trivialize content. This, in turn, required the development team to ramp up and fine tune their content around mods rather then player interest. The cycle continued until the last few dungeons in wow were so unforgiving that the loss of a single dps could cause you to miss the enrage timer. It required everyone to "ramp up", min, max, and spend more time working outside of raids then they did doing the actual raid.

 

Meters are a canard. They do not make content "easier", they just begin a cycle of ****** content up to implosion, which is what occurred in Wow with the collapse of the casual guild and the eventual migration away from the game.

 

They are a crutch. They are not needed. they are short sighted. People are completing content without them.

 

Well stated.

[genesiser]

There is no question here. You are right.

 

The question is how will the introduction of meters enhance the game over the long haul. How will we prevent them from controlling content and how will we prevent content from spiraling out of control once they are implemented?

 

Saying that damage meters will work to determine dps output does not demonstrate how they will improve the game.

 

Or they could stop putting enrage timers on bosses so that there won't be a need for meters in the first place and instead have the fight be about team skill and coordination.

[genesiser]

Nope. You are making it more complex than it needs to be. Just have guild members playing DPS characters run their normal rotation on a combat dummy submit that log and compare.

 

Yes, because standing still fighting a dummy is the same thing as fighting a boss with actual mechanics that require movement and other such mechanics, right?

[crudedragos]

They will not son. those are out of game logs you have to be out of game to see there will be no real time spec tweaking or rotation modifications. its the most ridiculous excuse for damage logs. we need DPS meeters.

 

Irrelevant to whether you have real-Time DPS meters, you will not be dynamically changing your spec. The results from Rotation Modifications will again will be visible immediately after a fight. You can try both rotations in one go and analyze the difference after. Worst case is you try twice. In any scenario at least now you'll be able to tell if your output is subpar compared to other people.

 

Edit:

Or they could stop putting enrage timers on bosses so that there won't be a need for meters in the first place and instead have the fight be about team skill and coordination.

 

Everyone needs to pull there weight. Why this obviously guarantees that DPS are pulling there weight it also means you can overcompensate for weak healers with extra healers (cause you need # of DPS). I'm all for them "hiding" the enrage with flavor for each boss but enrage timers are a good thing.

Edited March 20, 2012 by crudedragos

[Lord_of_Stone]

didn't have them in EQ. Didn't have them for a long while in Wow. We still cleared content.

 

What damage meters did was allow people to min max, and therefore trivialize content. This, in turn, required the development team to ramp up and fine tune their content around mods rather then player interest. The cycle continued until the last few dungeons in wow were so unforgiving that the loss of a single dps could cause you to miss the enrage timer. It required everyone to "ramp up", min, max, and spend more time working outside of raids then they did doing the actual raid.

 

Meters are a canard. They do not make content "easier", they just begin a cycle of ****** content up to implosion, which is what occurred in Wow with the collapse of the casual guild and the eventual migration away from the game.

 

They are a crutch. They are not needed. they are short sighted. People are completing content without them.

 

This.

 

Never touched WoW because of this. I play SWTOR for its story content, which I can enjoy with my friends.

 

What I'm happy to see is that they said in the guild summit that in the future, starting with the new Op something denova, that they will focus more on in game cues and more engaging boss mechanics than simple tank and spank.

 

Even though the boss was for the most part tank and spank, Soa was easily the funnest and most intense fight I've ever played. The first time that platform dropped and we started dropping down.... cant even tell you how fast my heart was pumping.

[Blackardin]

LOL

 

Who cares. Just beat EV for the first time last week. Had to make my own guild, since the one i joined previously died, to do it. Sometimes I wonder if you guys want to play videogames..... or just read a bunch of numbers and calculate accordingly.

 

Bioware has said that they dont have DPS meters, threat meters, or target of target because they want players to concentrate on THE GAME, not numbers.

 

Hardcore raiders dont like it? Theres the door. See ya!

 

Threat notification and target of target are very different then damage meters, and I don't think that we can group them all together.

 

Threat notification simply informs the individual (the tank) that they have threat. This is necessary in a game where we cannot actually feel (or in many cases) see who the target is attacking, especially with multiple targets. The same with target of target. These are simply tools that will help with the focus on the game in real time. I see them as no different then floating combat text. Damage meters are vastly different.

[Harleyz]

This topic always brings out those bad guys with bad specs. They say no to meters.