Nightmare Pilgrim Feedback/Q & A

[Draxxen]

Mechanically, there's simply no way that content can be made challenging for a guild of coordinated, dedicated players who use vent/whatever, study battle logs, and spreadsheet all the fun out of the game, AND be accessible, at all, to people like me and you who would be lucky to find 15 random strangers to play with. It can't be done. For me and 15 random people to be able to take down the aforementioned world boss would mean that a well coordinated guild would be able to take it so trivially that it wouldn't be worth the bother.

 

This is exactly what I am speaking to, and with a boss outside the main storyline, it is an opportunity to create a truly challenging encounter that could be rarely defeated, and discussed as "that impossible boss" that most guilds don't even want to spend the time on because the chances of success are so low. It doesn't even need to have the most amazing gear ever on it, perhaps something vanity like a title or pet or different skinned existing mount. That is the type of boss/encounter that hardcore and "elitist" type raiders LOVE (like myself).

[Iandayen]

This is exactly what I am speaking to, and with a boss outside the main storyline, it is an opportunity to create a truly challenging encounter that could be rarely defeated, and discussed as "that impossible boss" that most guilds don't even want to spend the time on because the chances of success are so low. It doesn't even need to have the most amazing gear ever on it, perhaps something vanity like a title or pet or different skinned existing mount. That is the type of boss/encounter that hardcore and "elitist" type raiders LOVE (like myself).

 

I miss the sleeper in EQ =(

[pure_laced]

IMHO the Nightmare Pilgrim should be harder based on the "lore" surrounding it alone when reading the quest log information, etc.

 

Another change I would personally do based on the above, is to make it a traveling World boss, spreading it's nightmare plague around everywhere instead of a static spawn. More dynamic event, changes scenery and npc's in the land it has visited, can open up new questlines for "cleanup" after the devastation, etc.

[DTEST]

There are ways for nightmares to be very challenging without excluding casual (not read "sucky") gamers. Just because I cannot always do group content with my guild, does not mean that I don't want to experience it. Making group content inaccessible to PUGs really alienates those of us who have to sometimes rely on them due to RL constraints.

 

As a casual-gamer-not-by-choice-but-by-RL-responsibilities, I understand where you are coming from. But there is a difference between non-sucky casuals and your normal run of the mill PUGs. Aside from server populations (addressed below), it looks like it should be possible to get 16 casuals together in a PUG to down this.

 

You can't expect a difficult-tuned encounter to be PUG-able (in the normal connotation of PUG) because the difficulty comes in the organization and communication to achieve the goal. Bads will stand in reticules whether they are 'casual' (<10 hours a week) or 'hard-core' (40+ hrs).

 

Of course, sometimes it is very hard to find a PUG for anything on my server (Saber of Exar Kun), which seems to have a low population. So, until server merges or group-finding ability corrects this, as a casual gamer I am sort of screwed anyway when I miss a guild-sponsored event. I know some servers are fine, and I am not one of those who says the game is dead because of this, but a lot of my feedback on accessibility to casual gamers comes from a low-populations erver perspective. I have played prime time on some of the higher level worlds that had only like 8 people on them.

 

 

I agree here that servers need to be merged to increase the pool to draw casuals from. My server (Cho Mai) looks like a ghost town so much so that I'm thinking of re-rolling for 1.2. My current guild is casual, and has about 35 people. 20 of those I have grouped with for either PVP or Ops. Of those 20, I could see maybe 5-6 being viable in completing difficult tuned content (read: Nightmare)

 

So to conclude, I want to see difficult tuned content and don't see it as a barrier for casuals getting to see that content, as long as the server populations can support it. MERGE THE SERVERS!

[Draxxen]

So to conclude, I want to see difficult tuned content and don't see it as a barrier for casuals getting to see that content, as long as the server populations can support it. MERGE THE SERVERS!

 

I truly believe (and hope) that 1.2 is going to bring back a good number of players for this content. Based on what I've seen of it so far, this update is a huge overhaul and shows the commitment level Bioware has to this game and ensuring that it stands the test of time.

[belgarth]

 

I appreciate that perspective, but I don't agree with it - obviously for subjective reasons. I do agree with you that the nightmare mode should be quite challenging - don't mistake me being a "casual" gamer for being a "lazy" gamer. I want it to be accessible - not easy. To me, that means make it more challenging in a way that does not exclude casual gamers.

 

I want to be able to progress and do nightmare modes just like any hardcore player, and I am fine with the fact that this will inevitably take longer for me to get to this point as a casual player (by the way, I am not a casual player by choice but by RL necessity).

 

There are ways for nightmares to be very challenging without excluding casual (not read "sucky") gamers. Just because I cannot always do group content with my guild, does not mean that I don't want to experience it. Making group content inaccessible to PUGs really alienates those of us who have to sometimes rely on them due to RL constraints.

 

Of course, sometimes it is very hard to find a PUG for anything on my server (Saber of Exar Kun), which seems to have a low population. So, until server merges or group-finding ability corrects this, as a casual gamer I am sort of screwed anyway when I miss a guild-sponsored event. I know some servers are fine, and I am not one of those who says the game is dead because of this, but a lot of my feedback on accessibility to casual gamers comes from a low-populations erver perspective. I have played prime time on some of the higher level worlds that had only like 8 people on them.

 

So, take that for what it is worth.

 

 

I am a causal raider myself and I do not want nightmare mode to be open to pugs. The reason why most pugs never get past the first boss on harder difficultly is because of lack of communications and knowing how your fellow ops members will perform in a fight. If they have to reduce a fights mechanics down to pug lvls in nightmare mode then full guild teams will clear it to fast. Resulting in bored players and loss of subs from most causal players that raid with full guild teams.

Edited March 20, 2012 by belgarth

[pure_laced]

I truly believe (and hope) that 1.2 is going to bring back a good number of players for this content. Based on what I've seen of it so far, this update is a huge overhaul and shows the commitment level Bioware has to this game and ensuring that it stands the test of time.

 

I agree. While there are still things not quite right just yet, the following has been shown to me at least:

 

- They do listen. While they may not agree, they are listening. With persistence, this might change to where they do agree.

 

- They are committed to wanting to grow this game and have it last for several years.

 

- With proper feedback they are more apt to allow the community to give insight into the direction the game is headed.

 

BW is going in the right direction, and while they don't have it perfect yet, they are showing progress on many levels.

[Bluetickone]

They don't refuse to give char copies, they just don't have the system yet to mass copy. Right now they have to manually copy each and every character. Next time, try not to jump to conclusions.

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/test-center/news/313754

 

Like everything else in a BW game 1/2 of Blizz's *** and nearly totally broken...

[DralenBrand]

Getting back on topic, in response to DralenBrand's post.

 

I understand the desire to participate in all content at every level, such as operations and flashpoints. However, not everything can be crafted in a way to please the die hard raiders and those with a more limited commitment/time level.

 

Maybe - and maybe not. I am not certain what is within the realm of possibility and/or practicality for the devs. Based upon the limited information to which I have access, it seems that they have done a lot with this game that folks would have previously thought impossible in an MMO (e.g., the voice acting).

 

SWTOR has attracted a lot of players that would not ordinarily have signed on to play an MMO, and this is in part because BW has added that 4th dimension of story to the MMO genre in a way that I, frankly, had given up on seeing in an MMO long ago.

 

That example may seem off-topic, but compared to what BW has already accomplished in this game, making a nightmare mode more challenging without reducing the accessibility of it to casual (time-limited not lazy) players would seem an easy task by comparison.

 

So, while I understand what you are saying, I think you lack sufficient information to be so completely certain that it is impossible for BW to satisfy hardcore players at the nightmare level without alienating casual players who are willing to work hard with the time they have to commit. You could be right, but then you could be wrong too. Until someone from BW admits this alleged impossibility, I will err on the side of assuming that it is not impossible to increase the difficulty/challenge for all players (atisfying the hardcore gamers) without rendering it inaccessible to casual gamers.

 

To me, a world boss should feel like an EPIC battle on a grand scale, with its defeat happening rarely, and the entire server getting excited when it does, not an everyday event like the completion of an operation.

 

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying here: I never wanted it to be easy or anything other than extremely challenging. My goal is not to see nightmare mode become easy mode. My only concern is that the difficulty/challenge be ratcheted up in a way that does not render it impossible for casual (not lazy or unskilled) players to make a legitimate attempt with some chance at victory. Sure - I agree, victory should not be attainable every time, and I know that not all PUGs are created equal. If you have a noob in your PUG who mouse clicks through every fight, then you should lose. But I have also been in some PUGs that were immediately cohesive with good strategy and tactics. So, when you ask for this to be something impossible for any PUG to complete, that concerns me. I do want nightmares to live up to the name, however, so don't misunderstand what I am saying.

 

I know this does close off the opportunity to participate in such an event to a large number of people,

 

Which is, generally speaking, unfortunate. Some players will not have progressed to the point necessary to make the attempt, and that is one thing. But for those casual gamers geared up and sufficiently talented to contribute, I just don't like the inference you are making that they should be excluded by design. Perhaps I misunderstood you.

 

however, Nightmare Pilgrim is a tangent off the storyline, not a main element and shouldn't be subject to the same rules as an operations/story boss.

 

Agreed - it should be harder, more challenging, and an epic-feeling victory afterward. I don't think nightmare mode should be = to hard mode or normal, etc. No one would argue that, I hope.

This is my personal opinion of this type of boss and encounter, and I feel it should be extraordinarily difficult to complete, which is why I called for more mechanics and damage, to make the encounter harder.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, and I don't entirely disagree with it really. My only concern was the implication that you wanted the devs to increase the difficutly in a way intentioned/designed to exclude PUGs. There is more than one method for increasing the difficulty/challenge of any encounter in the game. Some are, presumably, more likely to preclude PUGs than others. Keep in mind that not all casual gamers are casual by choice, and some of them would be a very good addition to any raid but have to rely on PUGs mroe than hardcore gamers online 24/7. Presuming they are geared up and competent to make the attempt, I just don't feel they should be intentionally excluded by design. That isn't to say I want it to be so easy that anyone and everyone can make the attempt. People read "casual" and think "crappy" sometimes, but that is not always the case.

[Talorra]

Like everything else in a BW game 1/2 of Blizz's *** and nearly totally broken...

 

Thank you for your meaningful contribution to this discussion.

 

Cali folks, I think we're good for a test this weekend. What time are you thinking? I don't know if we'll be able to bring a full 16 on our own, but I'm sure we can pull together enough from other guilds to make it work.

[Drewser]

Getting back on topic, in response to DralenBrand's post.

 

I understand the desire to participate in all content at every level, such as operations and flashpoints. However, not everything can be crafted in a way to please the die hard raiders and those with a more limited commitment/time level.

 

To me, a world boss should feel like an EPIC battle on a grand scale, with its defeat happening rarely, and the entire server getting excited when it does, not an everyday event like the completion of an operation. I know this does close off the opportunity to participate in such an event to a large number of people, however, Nightmare Pilgrim is a tangent off the storyline, not a main element and shouldn't be subject to the same rules as an operations/story boss.

 

This is my personal opinion of this type of boss and encounter, and I feel it should be extraordinarily difficult to complete, which is why I called for more mechanics and damage, to make the encounter harder.

 

I am a casual player and I agree with this. If 16 people in a pug can form up and down a world boss, I would be very disappointed. There should be small parts of the game that are very tough to complete.

[DTEST]

I agree. While there are still things not quite right just yet, the following has been shown to me at least:

 

- They do listen. While they may not agree, they are listening. With persistence, this might change to where they do agree.

 

- They are committed to wanting to grow this game and have it last for several years.

 

- With proper feedback they are more apt to allow the community to give insight into the direction the game is headed.

 

BW is going in the right direction, and while they don't have it perfect yet, they are showing progress on many levels.

 

I've been playing around on the PTS, and the changes that I've seen are good so far (mainly the UI customizability). I haven't gotten to test the legacy stuff, and obviously not the new content (I did say I'm casual after all!)

 

While I agree with you guys that BW has made steps in the right direction with this patch, I don't know that 1.2 will be the patch to bring back the subs. While I can see a few people trickling back in, the majority will probably wait for 1.3 (more fleshed out legacy) or even 1.4. The couple IRL people I know that quit aren't coming back for UI changes or even legacy.

 

That being said, I still thoroughly enjoy the game and am hoping the crew skill/economy changes will turn out to be a profitable time sink. Though how profitable again hinges on the server pops. Did someone say merge?

[carsonlees]

I am a casual player and I agree with this. If 16 people in a pug can form up and down a world boss, I would be very disappointed. There should be small parts of the game that are very tough to complete.

 

I think the thing people are missing here is that this is not a normal "PUG". Getting 16 people from Top end guilds working on a raid is very different from grabbing 16 people from general to complete a boss.

 

Your casual 8 man guild with 8 people from general is not going to down this world boss until you overgear it and the strategies have been flushed out by the high end guilds.

 

If anyone here really thinks that this encounter is "Puggable" by a normal PUG when 1.2 launches you are greatly mistaken.

[TerminallyRandom]

I think the thing people are missing here is that this is not a normal "PUG". Getting 16 people from Top end guilds working on a raid is very different from grabbing 16 people from general to complete a boss.

 

Your casual 8 man guild with 8 people from general is not going to down this world boss until you overgear it and the strategies have been flushed out by the high end guilds.

 

If anyone here really thinks that this encounter is "Puggable" by a normal PUG when 1.2 launches you are greatly mistaken.

 

 

They were responding to another poster who was arguing that content should be able to be completed by pugs. Not that this would be.

[DralenBrand]

I truly believe (and hope) that 1.2 is going to bring back a good number of players for this content. Based on what I've seen of it so far, this update is a huge overhaul and shows the commitment level Bioware has to this game and ensuring that it stands the test of time.

Whatever else I might agree/disagree with you on Draxxen, this I agree with 100%. Despite my concerns for accessibility to casual but dedicated players (with unavoidable RL obligations), I love this game and am really excited about 1.2. In some sense, being a casual player and, by necessity, progressing at a slower pace, has kept me from running out of content and things to do, so I do not intend to come off as a QQer. Despite some frustrations with bugs/glitches in game recently and the resulting customer service (or lack thereof), I think the Devs rock and am a huge fan of BW games, generally, but especially TOR specifically. The guild summit, the PTS notes and posts, and the devtracker comments have left me generally feeling very optimistic about 1.2 and the game as a whole.

 

So I hope that you are right about this and that more folks will come back to my server after 1.2 hits. There was a time that finding a competent PUG was relatively easy on my server, I can remember finding some quality players in gen chat for group content and having a lot fo success, but that's not been the case for some time now. Whether PUGS can do a nightmare mode or not is irrelevant if there are not enough players on my server at the same time to form a PUG for the attempt.

 

Still, this isa great game - don't mistake my posts as dissatisfaction, etc.

[DralenBrand]

Well, I am speaking as someone who never does "high level raiding", because I can't commit to showing up a X o'clock X times a week for X hours.

 

And, to be fair, the same is true for me only some of the time. I have been able to attend several guild-sponsored raids. Many of my guildies are far less time-restricted than I, and they do a great job of being supportive of the more casual players in the guild like me. So, never doing high level content is not the boat that I am in. Although doing a nightmare is not presently possible for me, I do want to know that when I progress that far, and when I have paid my dues to gear up, that I won't be excluded simply because I am limited to which 3-4 hour period of time is available and cannot find a group, hence my past reliance on PUGs.

 

 

Mechanically, there's simply no way that content can be made challenging for a guild of coordinated, dedicated players who use vent/whatever, study battle logs, and spreadsheet all the fun out of the game, AND be accessible, at all, to people like me and you who would be lucky to find 15 random strangers to play with. It can't be done. For me and 15 random people to be able to take down the aforementioned world boss would mean that a well coordinated guild would be able to take it so trivially that it wouldn't be worth the bother.

 

 

You may be right. While I am not prepared to presume that this is impossible, as you do, I am prepared to accept the possibility that it might be impossible to ratchet up the difficulty in a way that does not negatively impact casual players who have the skills, gear, and ability to genuinely contribute to high-level raids (presuming they can get grouped for it). As you say, it may be impossible. On the other hand, again, BW has already done things with this game that I had long since written off as being "impossible." One example: story. In every other MMO I have played, the story felt bland an unimmersive. SWTOR has actually engaged me with its story. Had you asked me if that was possible before launch, I'd have probanly said, "I hope they can do it, but it's really impossible." /Shrug.

 

If 5% of the content of a game is only accessible to the top, say, 10% of players, but the remaining 95% is available to all players, even those in the bottom 5%, that strikes me as a good enough value for the money I'm paying.

 

I would tend to agree that it is a "good value" under the circumstances you have outlined. However, I am not threatening to unsub - just suggesting increased challenge without completely removing accessability to PUGS and casual but talented players may not be an impossible goal to shoot for here. Maybe I am wrong/overyl optimistic. That does seem to be the consensus, lol.

 

I want to experience being on "Top Chef", but my cooking skills cap out at "Peel back foil to expose tater tots". (OK, not that bad... but close..). I want to experience having massive orgies with 30 Princess Leia cosplayers at DragonCon, but a)I look like Jabba if he'd really let himself go, and b)my wife is trained to fire an assault rifle. So my life is filled with things I'd like to experience, but won't be able to. I've learned to live with this.

 

Just quoted this part because it was really funny.

[Dramion]

As for the sorc healer going out of resources. We only used 4 healers on this encounter, it very likely is intended for 5 healers, but we hit the enrage wall so many times that we pushed it by introducing another DPS. As an operative healer it was very challenging to keep my energy level high throughout the fight. Our BH healers have changed their rotation up quite a bit.

 

Would love to get some feedback on the sorc healing it. Is the nerf to consumption over done, does it make you waste force or make your other healers waste resources healing you so you could get force back? Do you think it will affect 8 man hard modes, having the healers take damage on top of all the normal damage you would take from the encounter?

[gramz]

Thank you for your meaningful contribution to this discussion.

 

Cali folks, I think we're good for a test this weekend. What time are you thinking? I don't know if we'll be able to bring a full 16 on our own, but I'm sure we can pull together enough from other guilds to make it work.

 

 

We will be raiding the new operation tonight instead of live raiding, I'm not sure we will have a full 16, might need some help.

[alifaraaz]

Really nice post, informative with constructive criticisms - my guild didn't get the chance to get copied over. Can't wait to try this when 1.2 hits live though.

 

Nonetheless just wanna say thanks for testing its a shame everyone cant but such is life - hopefully you guys can find more bugs in the new Operation and ways to improve the new stuff before it hits live.

[arnoldlol]

We will be raiding the new operation tonight instead of live raiding, I'm not sure we will have a full 16, might need some help.

 

They're republic, turd muncher. He's referring to my request to get some pubs to test harrassing during the fight, which we can't do for another ~3 days?

[LizardSF]

 

 

You may be right. While I am not prepared to presume that this is impossible, as you do, I am prepared to accept the possibility that it might be impossible to ratchet up the difficulty in a way that does not negatively impact casual players who have the skills, gear, and ability to genuinely contribute to high-level raids (presuming they can get grouped for it). As you say, it may be impossible. On the other hand, again, BW has already done things with this game that I had long since written off as being "impossible." One example: story. In every other MMO I have played, the story felt bland an unimmersive. SWTOR has actually engaged me with its story. Had you asked me if that was possible before launch, I'd have probanly said, "I hope they can do it, but it's really impossible." /Shrug.

 

I'd like to emphasize that, in my opinion, the issue of guild vs. PUG isn't gear or individual player skill -- it's *coordination*. Guilds learn to work together, as a team of individuals who know each other, read each other well, react smoothly due to constant practice. This happens in any coordinated group, and it often happens so subtly, over time, that you don't realize how much you're NOT saying, how much has become rote instinct, until you work with someone who hasn't been with the group long. Adopting one person into the group is usually smooth, but you can't take 16 random strangers and hope to get the same coordination, ever. If you took the top player from each of 16 guilds, put them in a PUG, and told them to go take down the same boss they'd each taken down as part of their guilds -- they'd fail. Same players, same gear -- but without that critical element of coordination.

 

The truly challenging content challenges not just the stats of the characters (which anyone can equal with enough grinding), or how well the players have memorized the optimal rotations for their spec, but leadership, coordination, and teamwork. That's why I believe it's impossible to make something challenging to both an organized guild and equally-skilled/geared PUGs.

[Draxxen]

The truly challenging content challenges not just the stats of the characters (which anyone can equal with enough grinding), or how well the players have memorized the optimal rotations for their spec, but leadership, coordination, and teamwork. That's why I believe it's impossible to make something challenging to both an organized guild and equally-skilled/geared PUGs.

 

I agree with this. Nothing about being casual/hardcore is a statement of ability, just a matter of time invested, or scheduling, depending on how you look at it. Now if you could get a fully endgame geared PUG with exceptional players, its no different than a raiding guild group other than the time spent playing with the other people.

 

That being said, the knowledge shared amongst guildmembers and the comfort level and trust gained being in the guild, is often the 10% you need to kill a boss/complete an encounter. I fully believe that this can be taken into account, that level of coordination and communication required to get a boss down.

 

So, again, there's nothing wrong with casual playstyle, in fact some of the people I enjoy grouping with and have completed harder content with only have a few hours at most per day to play. I've also met people with more playtime than most others who just don't know their class and role, and have terrible awareness.

[StrykerOne]

Our intent in asking for content to be harder is not to alienate players like you. There are multiple difficulty levels for a reason, we are only asking that the top difficulty level be challenging.

 

Story mode and (most likely) hard mode will still be able to be completed by pugs. It is our hope that in this next tier of content Nightmare mode is more fitting of its name, and provides us with an ample challenge. I would also hope that any player who wants to see the content has an opportunity to in either Story Mode or Hard mode.

 

I can see both sides on this... on one hand, I don't particularly like knowing I'll never be able to see certain content because I'm not in a raiding guild (my schedule isn't really consistent enough for it) but on the other hand a well built premade group with voice chat, 3rd party tools, and lots of time playing together will absolutely breeze through anything a PUG could hope to complete so I can see those players wanting more challenge. On operations it's not a big deal since they can have multiple difficulty levels... casual PUGs can pick Story mode, well geared PUGs and more laid back guilds can do Hard, and hardcore raiding guilds can do Nightmare. But unless there is a way to spawn different versions of the world boss I'd personally rather not have him so hard that only top-end raid guilds have a chance... though if he is spawned by a player action instead of just wandering around then it should be possible to make a harder version of him that the big raiding guilds can fight.

 

Note that I'm not saying he should be easy to PUG, but rather that he should be defeatable by 16 well geared players using only the tools available in game: no voice chat required, no 3rd party buff monitors (don't know if those are out for TOR yet), just 16 people who know what they are doing and know the encounter reasonably well. (I'm assuming that at first only guild groups will be able to beat him, but that PUGs will start having a chance later on once more players know how he works.)

[Kunari]

The Boss buff should NOT be carried over to PvP WZ because ppl dressed on PvP gear would have a harder time beating it...

 

Yeah, I'm not too thrilled about a PVE raid being more-or-less required to PVP. It's bad enough now in 1.1x that the best PVP gear is a mix of Rakata & BM gear. There was much hope that the new gear level would correct that, but not by requiring one to PVE to PVP.

 

To the OP: Great write up on the new World Boss.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Kunari

[Draxxen]

Yeah, I'm not too thrilled about a PVE raid being more-or-less required to PVP. It's bad enough now in 1.1x that the best PVP gear is a mix of Rakata & BM gear. There was much hope that the new gear level would correct that, but not by requiring one to PVE to PVP.

 

To the OP: Great write up on the new World Boss.

 

I don't believe anyone would consider the boss to be required whatsoever. The buff only lasts 5 hours total from the time you kill NP onward. Most PVP'ers I know like to PVP all day long, and it would just be a fun buff to have to really push you over the top in rated warzones.