Levelling systems in MMOs

[Spenicer]

I'm curious what people think about levelling systems in MMOs. We've had levelling systems in games forever, intended to reflect a character's growth, but are they fun or irritating as they are currently implemented in MMOs?

 

In the past, I've had fun with them. It's gratifying to see your character becoming more powerful and it's fun to make choices about how they grow along the way. However, it seems to me that in MMOs, the levelling system is more of a hassle than a pleasure.

 

The actual act of "levelling up" requires no action, aside from perhaps allocating a single skill point that might gain you 2% of something here or there. In actuality, the player has probably already decided where they want their points, so no interesting decision is ever actually happening at the point of levelling up. I'm not sure that I see a purpose in a game for making the player do something that is not actively fun; surely that's fat that can be trimmed.

 

I understand that the levelling system is there to pace players' progresses through the content, but then it's not about the character becoming more powerful, it's about controlling what players can do and when, which can easily be done through story elements. Considering that the challenge never actually increases because you're always facing an enemy that is comparable to your character, and considering that there is zero benefit from fighting lower level NPCs, it begs the question of why one might bother adding a levelling system in the first place.

 

Finally, in what is fundamentally a multiplayer game, it seems silly to place a restriction on when you can play with your friends. It can be hard enough to coordinate a time to get a few friends online together to do something, without having to be concerned about how far apart you are in level. Given the large amount of effort that MMOs put on multiplayer content (dungeons, flashpoints, etc), it's strange that they also restrict your ability to play them with your friends. The solution, of course, is to play solo for a while until you are all max level, but then there is not much to do when your friends ARE NOT online. Once you are max level (whether you're playing with a guild or just with your friends), you are just jumping into PvP or dungeons anyway, in which case you've traded "massively" for "multiplayer", but you never get both at the same time.

 

I imagine this sort of discussion has happened before and I do not currently have a workable alternative in mind. However, I find that not being able to jump online and play with my friends until I'm max level to be a major flaw in this genre.

 

How does everyone else feel about this?

[ZORG]

Do you want a level scaling system? So higher level folks can group with lower level folks and be tuned down so the content is challenging?

[Stoofa]

I hat levelling in an MMO as it simply feeds the idea that there is an "end to the game" and encourages people to "achieve as high a level as possible in the shortest amount of time".

There are also the unrealistic aspects of it all. Becasue I've used my "gun" thousands and thousands of times I've gone up a level and now my skill/knowledge in using a melee weapon has increased (Not TOR related, but you get the idea).

 

Levelling is a very lazy way of doig things. People have no control over their characters. They level and a pre-determined number of skills and abilities automatically get updated.

AO attempted to get aorund this by allowing the player to decide which skills were increased each time a new level was reached. Them depending on your class the skills were eitehr cheap to increase or expensive.

 

Other games have had a much better way of doing things whereby a skill or ability only increases when you actually use it. So to increase say melee seapon skill you would have to use a melee weapon. Firing a gun would not help increase this skill.

 

So personally I hate "lazy levelling" systems in MMO's. Either give me a choice what is inceased at each level or drop them entirely and make the game skill based.

 

However I'll use my favourite term again. The "Console Generation" want levels so the writers pander to the lowest common denominator.

[SnapWolf]

Levelling is the standard way in RPGs to see your character grow in strength. That's all I'm going to say.

 

Of course, if you take a look at a game like The Secret World where there is going to be no levelling system... Everyone stands equal from start to beginning, yet are different without being restricted to a set class. Freeform customization has its pros and cons.

[Spenicer]

So personally I hate "lazy levelling" systems in MMO's. Either give me a choice what is inceased at each level or drop them entirely and make the game skill based.

 

Yes, I agree with this entirely. This is probably somebody else's thought, but I figure that if a choice or mechanic is trivial, you need to ask whether it belongs in the game. If yes, then make it non-trivial. If no, remove it.

 

This half-way-house levelling system serves no-one.

 

Do you want a level scaling system? So higher level folks can group with lower level folks and be tuned down so the content is challenging?

 

I don't think I'd like a scaling system, because it kind of just works around the problem instead of addressing it. The last thing one should do is swallow a spider to catch the fly... because we all know where THAT leads.

 

AO attempted to get aorund this by allowing the player to decide which skills were increased each time a new level was reached. Them depending on your class the skills were eitehr cheap to increase or expensive.

 

Other games have had a much better way of doing things whereby a skill or ability only increases when you actually use it. So to increase say melee seapon skill you would have to use a melee weapon. Firing a gun would not help increase this skill.

 

Actually having an adaptive levelling system might be nice, but it would imply that all characters must start the same and gradually grow to be different based on their choices. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't address solving the problem about level gap prohibiting multiplayer activities.

 

Levelling is the standard way in RPGs to see your character grow in strength. That's all I'm going to say.

 

Heh, yeah. I'm sure we can all look around and find examples of people doing stupid stuff because that's how it's always been done.

 

I have seen other games (particularly a number of table top RPGs) that do away with levels in favour of plot-oriented and specialization-oriented character design. Character development can be more than just becoming more powerful.

[MackumDog]

I believe levelling in sandbox MMOs is important, as you tweak your character and define them ready for end game into the player you want to be, this assumes like in most decent sandbox games there are hundreds of attributes to put points into (like AO)

 

but in the theme park MMO, you should not have such a grind and once you have got a class to the high level all you are interested in is playing at that level. so leveling alts should be simplified.

[Andryah]

Of course, if you take a look at a game like The Secret World where there is going to be no levelling system... Everyone stands equal from start to beginning, yet are different without being restricted to a set class. Freeform customization has its pros and cons.

 

Yeah, they say this but I don't buy it. They will have a maturity track (ie: aquiring new skills after effort is applied), just a different design then other MMOs. And, maturity tracks = leveling tracks. Just because they don't have character levels does not mean they don't have a leveling curve, it's just that it appears to be a skill leveling curve in the case of SW.

[Meldwyn]

I can think of more ways to gain experience and skills than leveling your character through a set path. While its important to show progression, the only leveling we do in real life is to age and develop skills and our innate talents. If I want to learn to be a concert pianist, I don't go on quests and "ding" to the next level. I practice the piano ad nausea.

 

There has to be a happy medium between rl and virtual reality that allows a character to progress and gain proficiencies, but not go through some predetermined path.

 

No more character levels (i.e. lvl 1-50), but skills development and aging!

[mangarrage]

They are irritating in current MMOs because they are way too quickly achieved plain and simple

They used to be fun, now its like yawn I did another 10 levels today

 

Imagine if most of the population was just getting into their late 40s or 50 now

 

No one wouldve complained about tradeskills being worthless

No one would have complained about having nothing to do or look forward to

No one would have complained about the bugs in 8/16 mans cause few people wouldve been doing them and they are getting refined next patch so most wouldnt have noticed

 

The list goes on and on

 

They spend all that time and energy especially in this game with the levelling process and the planets etc and it is just mowed down by a super casual in 3 weeks to a month

[Tal-N]

I think the concept of 'leveling' is well past its sell-by date. In short, levels are a substitute for real progression through a game and is a throw back to the days when game developers had to contend with limited resources, limited audience and limited hardware requirements.

 

If you want innovation look at the indie scene. The Minecrafts, the Plants Vs Zombies and the Bastions. Bioware used to be innovative but now they're too big to be as creative as they used to be due to the shackles of big publishers like EA. It's a sad fact that the bigger you are, the slower you can move. Both in real life and in game development.

 

Bioware is simply too industrial, too big and too high profile to be innovative these days. And I'm sure it is a state that frustrates the developers to no end since they cannot flex their creativeness anymore.

[Baelish]

Levels and classes are sad relics of the very first generation of pen and paper RPGs. They are a lazy game designer's way of "framing" your character's "progression" (levels) and keeping a handle on "balance".

 

They're particularly hinky in SWTOR where you start off as someone pretty special (according to the story), yet you're the same level as whatever foe you're facing, and there are thousands of inconsequential mooks of higher level than you, elsewhere in the Galaxy. This makes any progression more a case of reputation build than actual ability gain, which is reflected in the story, yet none of the concrete benefits of this reputation are actually available to you except the standard 5 crew.

 

When you consider that many of the "class" benefits of the game are actually technical devices, class distinctions look even stranger, and stranger yet are the distinctions between some of the ACs. Smuggler, for example: if you've got a stealth field, you can't ever possess a portable cover shield generator. You can't even switch 'em out from your cargo hold. And why can only certain classes use wearable shield generators? It's one thing to have that kind of restriction when there's magic involved, but technology? Pshaw.

 

Classes and levels. Just say no, developers of the future. Just. Say. No.

[notebene]

I think the concept of 'leveling' is well past its sell-by date. In short, levels are a substitute for real progression through a game and is a throw back to the days when game developers had to contend with limited resources, limited audience and limited hardware requirements.

 

If you want innovation look at the indie scene. The Minecrafts, the Plants Vs Zombies and the Bastions. Bioware used to be innovative but now they're too big to be as creative as they used to be due to the shackles of big publishers like EA. It's a sad fact that the bigger you are, the slower you can move. Both in real life and in game development.

 

Bioware is simply too industrial, too big and too high profile to be innovative these days. And I'm sure it is a state that frustrates the developers to no end since they cannot flex their creativeness anymore.

 

I disagree with this.

 

The whole 'big publisher' debate aside (seems like you have some 'pay-v-free' issues in there, and I want to stay away from that topic), I think innovation can happen in the genre and still be true to the genre.

 

Take something like "Southland". Fantastic television show. Interesting characters, compelling story. However, it's very true to it's genre. At 20k ft...'mechanically' it's "Adam 12".

 

What you are throwing in there (in my opinion, of course) as examples of innovation are "Dancing With My Cousin Who's Now My Wife" and "Real Jersey Tatoo Pawn Cooks". Yeah, it's on TV, but it's not TV. It's rather disgusting, actually.

 

If the 'answer' to innovation is free little arcade games you play on a tablet or phone, and that's the only way to get it, then I guess I lose.

 

To the original poster's point, the leveling mechanic itself, I don't think it 'has' to necessarily be that. This game as an example, if you just came into the galaxy and everything everywhere was effectively the same challenge to you wherever you went, and progression was based on something else (so long as it was something you could track over time, and took a long time to achieve it), then sure.

 

But if what you are asking for is "Metal Solid Vampire Gear Call of Doody Online: NASCAR Edition", where you just make a character and give him a gun and login and have PvP shoot fest, well in my opinion, that just isn't this genre.

 

And if that is what the genre becomes, then that's fine, I am in the minority, I lose, and I catch up on some old Analogs.

[Jenzali]

If it's not broken, don't fix it. Levelling has worked fine in every MMO and pretty much every RPG so far. Just a few points for SWTOR:

 

How would you measure the progress of other players?

 

How would you stop level 1's from equipping end-game BoE gear?

 

Imagine trying to start a flashpoint group. You'd have to ask each player questions about where they are in their class storyline to find out if they're eligible. Let all players enter any flashpoint at any stage, you say? So how do you scale the gear so that it's always an upgrade, giving incentive to run the flashpoint?

 

You also lose players' motivation to level by removing the carrot on a stick. Although I personally love all the stories and cutscenes, there are players on these forums who complain about them and spacebar through everything. You'd be leaving them with no measure of progress other than dents on their spacebar key.

 

Levelling is an important gating system for MMO's. I'm sure there are MMO's without levelling systems, but it's too late for SWTOR to make such a drastic change without redesigning the entire game from the ground up.

 

You should have just done a little thinking before posting this thread

Edited March 19, 2012 by Jenzali

[Dayln]

We are still inside the box

 

when a game comes out that is outside the box, we will have something interesting to try

 

I am not running down SWTOR or Bioware in any way whatsoever, but we are still inside the box

 

Some day a light bulb will finally go off over someone’s head

 

A 12 year old kid with a shotgun could have easily killed Bruce Lee

 

As we get older, we don’t necessarily get stronger or more skilled

 

Horses can be purchased when you have no skill at all, ride up near a snake and it will buck you off, run away and you are not likely to see it again soon.

 

Then we will be outside the current box of MMO's today

[Claymaniac]

What MMO has been a success that hasn't had a leveling system? Serious question.

[Dayln]

What MMO has been a success that hasn't had a leveling system? Serious question.

 

What mode of transportation has been successful without a horse in front of the cart?

 

( said in an earlier time )

[Space_Gimp]

What MMO has been a success that hasn't had a leveling system? Serious question.

 

EVE Online is a success. You don't have character levels. You can argue how big of a success it is all you want but an MMO that is going on past 6 years old with ~250k and a developer team that is redesigning the game (more on graphics than gameplay mechanics) to keep up with the times is a success to me.

 

You can also argue the number of skills and skill points as a leveling system. In a sandbox MMO when someone can just equip an AOE smartbomb to a suicide ship and have moments of lunacy at the jita stargates skill points won't matter too much when you are in a frigate that just got his butt whooped because you were carrying 50 PLEXs in your cargohold.

[Claymaniac]

What mode of transportation has been successful without a horse in front of the cart?

 

( said in an earlier time )

 

No leveling systems have been tried before though right? I'm just asking have any of them been popular? That's why I said serious question, I'm not trying to troll the idea. Unfortunately, you seemed to not get that, oh well.

 

I don't know many MMO's that tried it. Darkfall attempted it right? What else?

[Claymaniac]

EVE Online is a success. You don't have character levels. You can argue how big of a success it is all you want but an MMO that is going on past 6 years old with ~250k and a developer team that is redesigning the game (more on graphics than gameplay mechanics) to keep up with the times is a success to me.

 

You can also argue the number of skills and skill points as a leveling system. In a sandbox MMO when someone can just equip an AOE smartbomb to a suicide ship and have moments of lunacy at the jita stargates skill points won't matter too much when you are in a frigate that just got his butt whooped because you were carrying 50 PLEXs in your cargohold.

 

I definitely consider EVE a success. Any MMO that is still running and being supported is a success.

 

How did EVE's advancement work? No levels, but skills advancing? In theory, isn't that just like leveling? You play, you get stronger, you get too strong for early content. Or does it work differently?

[Space_Gimp]

I definitely consider EVE a success. Any MMO that is still running and being supported is a success.

 

How did EVE's advancement work? No levels, but skills advancing? In theory, isn't that just like leveling? You play, you get stronger, you get too strong for early content. Or does it work differently?

 

Well the thing is you can really screw up your skills to the point that it would be easier to just start a new character over again. I have experienced this multiple times until I got a corporation (guilds in EVE) that helped me understand what to do.

 

It's not really true about you playing and getting stronger when the skill points just automatically go up more time its in the skill point que. You could be doing something wrong for a good while until you hit the higher content and suddenly you get owned. For example: Mixing weapons. It may be very forgiving at lvl 1 missions to do this but after lvl 1 missions you are screwing yourself. Also note the level missions have nothing to do with your character. They are a way to tell the difficultly of the missions.

[Dayln]

No leveling systems have been tried before though right? I'm just asking have any of them been popular? That's why I said serious question, I'm not trying to troll the idea. Unfortunately, you seemed to not get that, oh well.

 

I don't know many MMO's that tried it. Darkfall attempted it right? What else?

 

Just as there were unsuccessful automobiles attempted when the horse comment was made.

 

I am just saying, we are in a box right now, a box I enjoy mind you, but almost all MMO;'s have been in the box that EQ ( and pen and paper D&D before it ) built for a long time now.

 

The EvE comment was funny, it has levels too, just gained a different way ( time )

 

I think it is time someone took a serious stab of getting out of the box

Edited March 19, 2012 by Dayln

[Claymaniac]

Well the thing is you can really screw up your skills to the point that it would be easier to just start a new character over again. I have experienced this multiple times until I got a corporation (guilds in EVE) that helped me understand what to do.

 

It's not really true about you playing and getting stronger when the skill points just automatically go up more time its in the skill point que. You could be doing something wrong for a good while until you hit the higher content and suddenly you get owned. For example: Mixing weapons. It may be very forgiving at lvl 1 missions to do this but after lvl 1 missions you are screwing yourself. Also note the level missions have nothing to do with your character. They are a way to tell the difficultly of the missions.

 

Well what I'm getting at is what's the idea behind wanting a no level system? To be able to play with your friends if they join a year later? To not make older content obsolete? But, then again, when you are playing a RPG you are trying to advance your character right? So, if I am not getting too strong for the content I run on Day 1, am I still really advancing? If a friend of mine joins a year later and is more or less at my level of effectiveness, what did I advance in the last year?

[Dayln]

More immersion, a more real feeling environment, a game you can get lost into the world it creates.

 

Why to do it is obvious, but how to do it, and the guts to spend money trying to accomplish it will be the big difficulty, it isn’t easy even looking outside the box sometimes, but that is where greatness lies, because then you aren’t limited by the box

[Derekloffin]

If you're against a leveling system, RPGs (MMOs or otherwise) are not your thing. You're probably looking for a pure action game. And no, just renaming it skill progression, or whatever doesn't change that you are leveling. Any kind of progression system where you get better than the default by game design, rather than gaming skill, is a leveling system, just varies by implementation.

 

There are things that could be done to improve the leveling system, but outright ditching it means you're changing game genera. If you don't want to completely eliminate it, then I suggest one of the more action oriented MMORPGs out there (whole bunch of them, including the upcoming GW2).

[Umorrian]

I think EVE is still diffrent, because someone with 10Million XP can fly some ship exactly as good as someone with 100Million XP. Also "Advancing" in eve is more by making money, as that's what ultimatly decides what you can do. However, you can make money in many many diffrent ways because it is a true sandbox. It also has no hard "End" to progress.

 

Now in theme parks like swtor what really bothers me is the dumbing down, in diablo II you could spend talent points, skill points AND then the gear to really make custom characters.