Oh Republic/Jedi, you get off so lucky/easy

[Darth_Solrac]

If societal pressure/conventional 'wisdom' didn't guilt force Lucas & Co. into giving you the win ultimately & by default every time, you'd so be toast.

 

The infighting, & plotting of the Dark Council, & the related PAILS in comparison to the weak willed, weak minded, corruption, bribery, etc. that takes place in the Galactic Senate. The secessions, the latent but significant distrust tween Republic leadership & the Jedi Order, etc.

 

I'm not sure which has the bigger population/resources, but the Sith Empire is a VASTLY more efficient, expedient entity. There maybe distrust/dislike in the Imperial Military for Sith, BUT they know their place. The Sith run the show, period. The order/authority of any 1 Sith Lord automatically trumps that of an Imperial General, in every case I've seen anyway. They know better than to questions their Lords. Imperial planets are far less likely/capable of seceding. The consequences from the Emperor are horrific. Consequences from the Republic....a plea from the Supreme Chancellor to stay?

 

The Sith Empire is a militaristic, strongest survive mentality run nation, society, etc. They demand & force unity, support for their conquests, edicts, etc. In reality, the Republic would simply be to weak willed, & too often fractured to wage the uber bloody, expensive, protracted war it would take to defeat the SE.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Darth_Solrac

[Varangian]

No, in reality, the Republic wins. It does not matter which side you prefer, only what the outcome is. For whatever reasons, known and unknown, the Republic is the superior state.

 

You may love glorifying the Sith Empire but, unfortunately, the fact remains that it is the loser. It will collapse and your misplaced nationalism will prove false. Railing against what you deem is the wrong outcome (when your input is neither asked for nor heeded) makes you out to be a madman.

 

Everyone already expects all of the political corruption on the Imperial side. If it was taken from the Republic, it'd just become a caricature. Who really wants a wholly black and white world?

 

Plus, the underdog winning out in the end is always great. As is the sudden fall of a monolithic empire.

[Darth_Solrac]

No, in reality, the Republic wins. It does not matter which side you prefer, only what the outcome is. For whatever reasons, known and unknown, the Republic is the superior state.

 

You may love glorifying the Sith Empire but, unfortunately, the fact remains that it is the loser. It will collapse and your misplaced nationalism will prove false. Railing against what you deem is the wrong outcome (when your input is neither asked for nor heeded) makes you out to be a madman.

 

Everyone already expects all of the political corruption on the Imperial side. If it was taken from the Republic, it'd just become a caricature. Who really wants a wholly black and white world?

 

Plus, the underdog winning out in the end is always great. As is the sudden fall of a monolithic empire.

 

Thanks for proving my point. You just said you're not even totally sure why the Republic wins. Again, societal pressure & the like.

 

You claim the Republic is superior & don't even know why. Run along noob.

[Captain_Zone]

The Republic just gets better plot armor, most of the time.

[Varangian]

Thanks for proving my point. You just said you're not even totally sure why the Republic wins. Again, societal pressure & the like.

 

You claim the Republic is superior & don't even know why. Run along noob.

 

Well, there is a gap of some magnitude between now (in-game) to the next piece of recorded history which outright denies the contemporary existence of the Empire. Anything could happen.

 

Who is the noob: the one supports the reality or the one who opposes it?

[Darth_Solrac]

Well, there is a gap of some magnitude between now (in-game) to the next piece of recorded history which outright denies the contemporary existence of the Empire. Anything could happen.

 

Who is the noob: the one supports the reality or the one who opposes it?

 

Guess you're the noob then. If SW were reality, our lives, sorry, even tho I'd root for the Republic, the Sith Empire would simply have too many advantages.

[Varangian]

Guess you're the noob then. If SW were reality, our lives, sorry, even tho I'd root for the Republic, the Sith Empire would simply have too many advantages.

 

You don't seem to understand what I mean by "reality." Within the context of the preexisting Star Wars universe, with all the historical facts prior to and after 3641 BBY, despite all of the advantages of the Sith Empire, it has one major disadvantage: the fact that it fails.

 

Say you were given free reign to change this, how could you possibly reconcile an Imperial victory with the Republic surviving until 19 BBY? That's right, you can't. And so the Empire must die because, quite obviously, it sucks.

 

Accept that the Empire is a failed state, so that we may end this.

[Darth_Solrac]

You don't seem to understand what I mean by "reality." Within the context of the preexisting Star Wars universe, with all the historical facts prior to and after 3641 BBY, despite all of the advantages of the Sith Empire, it has one major disadvantage: the fact that it fails.

 

Say you were given free reign to change this, how could you possibly reconcile an Imperial victory with the Republic surviving until 19 BBY? That's right, you can't. And so the Empire must die because, quite obviously, it sucks.

 

Accept that the Empire is a failed state, so that we may end this.

 

Well now you're just riding that fail road good sir. The Republic has fallen/failed too, why? It fell cuz of one, single, SITH. In fact, that Dark Lord of the Sith managed, covertly, TO RUN THE REPUBLIC HE DESPISED SO for a while right under its nose before supplanting it.

 

So guess this makes the Republic a failed state too.

 

Sorry, but you're gonna have to define 'sucks' a lot better than that to make your point. The Republic may have lasted longer than the Sith Empire, but in case you haven't noticed, both are very capable of rising again.

[Idunhavaname]

No, in reality, the Republic wins. It does not matter which side you prefer, only what the outcome is. For whatever reasons, known and unknown, the Republic is the superior state.

 

You may love glorifying the Sith Empire but, unfortunately, the fact remains that it is the loser. It will collapse and your misplaced nationalism will prove false. Railing against what you deem is the wrong outcome (when your input is neither asked for nor heeded) makes you out to be a madman.

 

Everyone already expects all of the political corruption on the Imperial side. If it was taken from the Republic, it'd just become a caricature. Who really wants a wholly black and white world?

 

Plus, the underdog winning out in the end is always great. As is the sudden fall of a monolithic empire.

 

Republic wins because Sith likes to kill eachother. Only until Darh Bane and his rule of two did the Sith stoped being morons who kills everything they see. That's actually why Bane started the rule of two in the first place. He saw the Sith were flawed.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Idunhavaname

[Varangian]

Well now you're just riding that fail road good sir. The Republic has fallen/failed too, why? It fell cuz of one, single, SITH. In fact, that Dark Lord of the Sith managed, covertly, TO RUN THE REPUBLIC HE DESPISED SO for a while right under its nose before supplanting it.

 

So guess this makes the Republic a failed state too.

 

Sorry, but you're gonna have to define 'sucks' a lot better than that to make your point. The Republic may have lasted longer than the Sith Empire, but in case you haven't noticed, both are very capable of rising again.

 

You are right, the Republic falls as well, however, not in contest with the Sith Empire. Between the Empire and the Republic, the winner proves to be, in fact, the Republic.

 

Sidious may have been a Dark Lord of the Sith but that doesn't necessarily make him a legitimate successor to the Sith Empire. The Sith predated, and continued on after, the Empire . Given that the Empire had been dead for some 3000 years by the time he arose, his victory was victory for the Sith Order, specifically that of Darth Bane, and not a victory for the Sith Empire.

 

My use of "sucks" was me equating it's failure with.. well, it's failure. Clearly it wasn't that good, though the specifics cannot yet be defined.

[Mirisido]

Frankly it's a never ending battle between the two groups. Can you truly say someone wins if it's only a temporary set back for both sides? Republic can be stopped in it's tracks by a single man and the Empire can be destroyed from the inside by anything as small as someone looking at another wrong. Both systems are flawed. In the end, Neither side goes away completely, just changes goals for awhile.

[Darth_Solrac]

You are right, the Republic falls as well, however, not in contest with the Sith Empire. Between the Empire and the Republic, the winner proves to be, in fact, the Republic.

 

Sidious may have been a Dark Lord of the Sith but that doesn't necessarily make him a legitimate successor to the Sith Empire. The Sith predated, and continued on after, the Empire . Given that the Empire had been dead for some 3000 years by the time he arose, his victory was victory for the Sith Order, specifically that of Darth Bane, and not a victory for the Sith Empire.

 

My use of "sucks" was me equating it's failure with.. well, it's failure. Clearly it wasn't that good, though the specifics cannot yet be defined.

 

You continue to say the ultimate winner is the Republic, yet still fail, I say, to provide real proof of this. You're also seriously splitting hairs man. Sidious was a Sith, he supplanted the Galactic Republic with his own Empire. It was a new Sith Empire effectively, reborn. They can call it 'Galactic', Sidious may have even called it that to support the 'reorganization' of the former Republic, but yea, it was really, obviously, a new Sith Empire. Ruled by an Emperor, a Dark Lord, & his apprentice. I dunno if Vitiate had an apprentice, but it passes to me.

[Varangian]

You continue to say the ultimate winner is the Republic, yet still fail, I say, to provide real proof of this. You're also seriously splitting hairs man. Sidious was a Sith, he supplanted the Galactic Republic with his own Empire. It was a new Sith Empire effectively, reborn. They can call it 'Galactic', Sidious may have even called it that to support the 'reorganization' of the former Republic, but yea, it was really, obviously, a new Sith Empire. Ruled by an Emperor, a Dark Lord, & his apprentice. I dunno if Vitiate had an apprentice, but it passes to me.

 

Well, the Empire disappears and the Republic continues on. What more proof does one need?

 

You are right, it was indeed, quite obviously, a "new" Sith Empire. However, it was not the Sith Empire of the TOR era. It's relationship to it was purely visual and ideological. Also, the fact that it supplanted the Republic makes the Galactic Empire a successor of the Republic and not the Sith Empire. There is hardly a connection between both Empires, beyond what's effectively nothing more than a belief system.

 

You're equating them to each other falsely, in an attempt to state that the Sith Empire is the ultimate winner between the two powers, when, in reality, it has been dead for too long.

[Darth_Solrac]

Well, the Empire disappears and the Republic continues on. What more proof does one need?

 

You are right, it was indeed, quite obviously, a "new" Sith Empire. However, it was not the Sith Empire of the TOR era. It's relationship to it was purely visual and ideological. Also, the fact that it supplanted the Republic makes the Galactic Empire a successor of the Republic and not the Sith Empire. There is hardly a connection between both Empires, beyond what's effectively nothing more than a belief system.

 

You're equating them to each other falsely, in an attempt to state that the Sith Empire is the ultimate winner between the two powers, when, in reality, it has been dead for too long.

 

Well as you said, the story is far from finished. So you can't really say one won't rise again, & the other won't fall, again. The connection between the 2 Empire's was more than just belief & ideology. It was methods & practice (conquests, authoritarian rule, etc.) Even some of their mech. (destroyers), uniforms. I, obviously, am not trying to say the SE won out ultimately, it didn't. I'm merely saying that some of the reasons why, are BS.

[Krazed]

The New Republic doesn't last very long though.

[ErikModi]

Another "Dark Side is better" troll thread.

 

Move along, people, nothing to see here.

[Darth_Solrac]

Another "Dark Side is better" troll thread.

 

Move along, people, nothing to see here.

 

Well not now since you came along & flamed it.

[TylerSlaughter]

The Sith will always be more powerful. The Jedi will always fight them back. It always takes a special Jedi to beat the Sith. One the Jedi always find in a time of need. The Sith are in short supply because of the Rule of Two. Darth Bane who had escaped the Thought Bomb made this. This happened 1,000 years before episode one. That is why the Sith aren't around by then. However Sidious infiltrated the Republic and killed of but a handful of the Jedi. Then Luke fought them back and restored balance. Even after his days the Sith were cropping up all the time. They were no where near as powerful as the Sith in SWTOR though. Jedi will always win eventually but with some form of luck behind it. Sith are definitively the more powerful. Would Luke have won if Vader hadn't picked Palpatine up and killed him? No. Would Obi-Wan have killed Darth Maul if it wasn't for a lucky slice? No. Just face it at this time Sith > Jedi. But Sith beware Jedi win the next war after SWTOR.

[AshlaBoga]

Here's why the Sith lose.

 

ARROGANCE.

 

Followed by:

Selfishness. Greed. Paranoia. Delusions of godhood.

 

The Dark Side is sort of like a drug, like steroids it gives you increased strength, but like a bad case of 'roid rage it convinces you that no one can stand up to you.

 

Continued use of the Dark Side of the Force convinces the user that they are more powerful than those who walk in the light, when they are actually equal.

 

Darth Thanaton crushes the Silencer project because he is more focused on tradition.

Overseer Harkun looks down on aliens and slaves alike, ignoring powerful potential sith (which made it really fun to electrocute him to death ).

Darth Malgus was right in that the Empire would be stronger in accepting aliens as allies - in fact this is probably why the Republic will win: strength in numbers. Let's face it, as a Wookie I wouldn't want to join the Empire.

 

And yet despite having a good idea, Malgus like many Sith ruins it by attempting to destroy the Imperials who disagree taking out a large chunk of the Empire and leaving it crippled before Republic forces.

 

 

In short, the Sith are fewer in part because their policies make it as such, and drive away potential allies. They follow this up with infighting and betrayal. The Sith Empire is much like Russia under Stalin, they purge so many of their most competent and loyal servants that they do more damage to themselves than the Republic!

 

Lastly, given their self-destructive nature, the Republic does not have to defeat the Empire, the Imperials will do the job for them (and for the record my main is a sorc, I'm not some pro-Republic troll, I prefer playing as a Sith, but I am a student of history and I must acknowledge the facts).

[Captain_Zone]

Here's why the Sith lose.

 

ARROGANCE.

 

Followed by:

Selfishness. Greed. Paranoia. Delusions of godhood.

 

The Dark Side is sort of like a drug, like steroids it gives you increased strength, but like a bad case of 'roid rage it convinces you that no one can stand up to you.

 

Continued use of the Dark Side of the Force convinces the user that they are more powerful than those who walk in the light, when they are actually equal.

 

Darth Thanaton crushes the Silencer project because he is more focused on tradition.

Overseer Harkun looks down on aliens and slaves alike, ignoring powerful potential sith (which made it really fun to electrocute him to death ).

Darth Malgus was right in that the Empire would be stronger in accepting aliens as allies - in fact this is probably why the Republic will win: strength in numbers. Let's face it, as a Wookie I wouldn't want to join the Empire.

 

And yet despite having a good idea, Malgus like many Sith ruins it by attempting to destroy the Imperials who disagree taking out a large chunk of the Empire and leaving it crippled before Republic forces.

 

 

In short, the Sith are fewer in part because their policies make it as such, and drive away potential allies. They follow this up with infighting and betrayal. The Sith Empire is much like Russia under Stalin, they purge so many of their most competent and loyal servants that they do more damage to themselves than the Republic!

 

Lastly, given their self-destructive nature, the Republic does not have to defeat the Empire, the Imperials will do the job for them (and for the record my main is a sorc, I'm not some pro-Republic troll, I prefer playing as a Sith, but I am a student of history and I must acknowledge the facts).

 

Oh! You forgot something else about the Dark Side. Like steroids, it shrivs your nads.

[TylerSlaughter]

Here's why the Sith lose.

 

ARROGANCE.

 

Followed by:

Selfishness. Greed. Paranoia. Delusions of godhood.

 

The Dark Side is sort of like a drug, like steroids it gives you increased strength, but like a bad case of 'roid rage it convinces you that no one can stand up to you.

 

Continued use of the Dark Side of the Force convinces the user that they are more powerful than those who walk in the light, when they are actually equal.

 

Darth Thanaton crushes the Silencer project because he is more focused on tradition.

Overseer Harkun looks down on aliens and slaves alike, ignoring powerful potential sith (which made it really fun to electrocute him to death ).

Darth Malgus was right in that the Empire would be stronger in accepting aliens as allies - in fact this is probably why the Republic will win: strength in numbers. Let's face it, as a Wookie I wouldn't want to join the Empire.

 

And yet despite having a good idea, Malgus like many Sith ruins it by attempting to destroy the Imperials who disagree taking out a large chunk of the Empire and leaving it crippled before Republic forces.

 

 

In short, the Sith are fewer in part because their policies make it as such, and drive away potential allies. They follow this up with infighting and betrayal. The Sith Empire is much like Russia under Stalin, they purge so many of their most competent and loyal servants that they do more damage to themselves than the Republic!

 

Lastly, given their self-destructive nature, the Republic does not have to defeat the Empire, the Imperials will do the job for them (and for the record my main is a sorc, I'm not some pro-Republic troll, I prefer playing as a Sith, but I am a student of history and I must acknowledge the facts).

 

Very true I agree. The Sith will always lose for those reasons. I am prefer a Sith as well but they often go down a path of Selfishness, Perfectionism, Greed, and Power Lust. This is what leads to their downfall. Good point my friend.

[MrWorst]

its a never ending cycle, the republic might win one war but they will ultimately lose to the empire, and vice verse. its a constant struggle between the two in which there will never be a permanent victor. The sith will always be plagued by arrogance that makes it easy for the republic to win, while the republic is so bogged down in bureaucracy that their war effort is almost completely paralyzed.

[Arabelle]

Totalitarian states traditionally are less effective/permanent than democracies, even if they appear more "organized" on the surface. That has a couple of reasons.

 

One is that they have a much lower economic productivity (North Korea vs. South Korea is the archetypal example, and it's not as though South Korea is a model democracy). This is general a lack of motivation that the general population have combined with the economy being strangulated by a state machinery trying to run the economy in a top-down fashion (especially if the economy is oriented towards driving a military campaign).

 

The other problem is that "circular firing squad" problems tend to cause far more permanent problems in totalitarian regimes. The Senate on Coruscant may be bickering constantly; but the Sith constantly decimate their own ranks in a rather permanent fashion. Totalitarian regimes have purges and succession wars, and the Sith have even institutionalized these practices. It doesn't really matter how much better your military organization is and how your uniforms look sharper if you force choke your commanders to death the first time they make a mistake; they'll never live long enough to accumulate experience.

 

This is clearly reflected in the in-game story arcs, too:

 

 

Jedi fight the Empire and protect the Republic. Sith fight both the Republic and engage in internecine warfare. In the end, Darth Malgus starts a full-scale Imperial civil war.

 

[bionamaster]

Thanks for proving my point. You just said you're not even totally sure why the Republic wins. Again, societal pressure & the like.

 

You claim the Republic is superior & don't even know why. Run along noob.

 

Let me point out the differences in the Sith and the Jedi: The Sith's power taps into emotions. Rage, grief, pain, love. They place their own feelings before others, thus this makes them the easy path. The Jedi live a tougher life, as they must always think for others. They are selfless, and are the paragons of duty. Now, the reasons why the Empire falls. Let's say a city belonging to the Empire is under attack. They would care not for the lives of the civillians. They would probably retreat once the battle turns in the Republic's favor. Poor treatment led to the Rebellion, which wiped them out. The Republic would put the lives of their civillians first. The Jedi would fight to their dying breath. Knowng that they are safe, the civillians would not defect without the conniving of Palpatine. So really, there are important reasons why the Republic, Rebellion, and Jedi normally win.

[Morticoccus]

Well now you're just riding that fail road good sir. The Republic has fallen/failed too, why? It fell cuz of one, single, SITH. In fact, that Dark Lord of the Sith managed, covertly, TO RUN THE REPUBLIC HE DESPISED SO for a while right under its nose before supplanting it.

 

So guess this makes the Republic a failed state too.

 

Sorry, but you're gonna have to define 'sucks' a lot better than that to make your point. The Republic may have lasted longer than the Sith Empire, but in case you haven't noticed, both are very capable of rising again.

 

He needed help from Jar-Jar Binks to do so, I'd consider that a pretty big negative point.

 

Also, the dark side provides easy and damaging power by using emotions for channeling the force, but even Palpatine had to adopt more jedi-like channeling methods of slow burning hatred over a long time to avoid melting to slag.

That's why everytime he uses his full power his body takes a ******** of punishment.

 

Furthermore, even he, who isn't just your average run-of-the-mill imperial but an outspoken racist (once he gives up the kindly old man routine) had to agree that at least SOME aliens made his empire stronger, such as grand admiral Thrawn, if he'd just been more open minded and gotten the rest of the chiss as his allies the rebellion would have had a hell of a lot harder to win.

 

Especially due to the chiss having the superior spacecraft, one of their clawcraft are more than a match for anything the rebellion fielded in the same class.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Morticoccus