ragamer Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Maybe it's made so those of us who doesn't likes pve or, most of all, doesn't likes grouping up, could still get top gear and have same fun as those who raid? I understand that lootwhores consider "fun" dressing gear that comes with bigger numbers... Sorry, that thought is totally alien to me... I repeat, I consider gear as tools to see new fights. If they serve no mechanic purpose they are useless... ...And if because a certain portion of the playerbase likes to showoff bigger numbers, I'm forced to get gear out of the environment it's usefull for that in turn will reduce the length of the content I want to progress into, I'm against such a mechanism. Maybe it's done so those of us who just started playing/rerolled could gear up fast and apply to a decent guild? Then why BW doesn't put you in the same gear level we, the dedicated OPs have? Which is Rakata? Some logic, pls... Using the same excuses to hide the fact that you are a solo player on a multiplayer game doesn't make the situation improve... ...I know you don't care about the "Multiplayer" part... For some of us the "Multiplayer" part is the difference between paying a sub or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daluu Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Maybe it's made so those of us who doesn't likes pve or, most of all, doesn't likes grouping up, could still get top gear and have same fun as those who raid? Maybe it's done so those of us who just started playing/rerolled could gear up fast and apply to a decent guild? If you don't like PvE why do you want the gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nessirin Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) If you don't like PvE why do you want the gear? They want to be pretty and special and have the things that people put time in for. Their defense is "they don't have time". The Dev answer should be "Then you don't the raid gear. Here's more social gear." I understand that lootwhores consider "fun" dressing gear that comes with bigger numbers... Sorry, that thought is totally alien to me... I repeat, I consider gear as tools to see new fights. If they serve no mechanic purpose they are useless... ...And if because a certain portion of the playerbase likes to showoff bigger numbers, I'm forced to get gear out of the environment it's usefull for that in turn will reduce the length of the content I want to progress into, I'm against such a mechanism. You're not forced to. It is more efficient to do both. It is like arguing that you are forced to do -something- to make money for the 80-100k repair bills. You don't have to do dailies. I don't have to do dailies. I have a guild that will probably burn through most of the hard mode content in a few lock outs. We will be geared before most people on the server get their second or third piece of daily gear (If the new patch note holds true, that it takes your group comp into account). If gear just serves you as a "tool" to see the new content, then I don't see the problem. Get your tools faster, see the content, move on. I don't quite understand you, you call others lootwhores, yet you're against being able to gear up faster. If you're after gear in raids, by definition, you're a lootwhore. If you're after challenge, then you simply don't buy the daily gear. I assume your guild is made up of similarly minded people? Then it shouldn't be hard to convince them not to do that either. The only argument I understand is from the so-called "lootwhore" raiders, where they put time to get awesome looking gear (well maybe not in this mmo so far, lol!) and gadgets like cars, where "casuals" as they call them, don't have time, but still get the same gear. To which I say, our mounts are still ours and ours alone. Same with titles. Gear will come and go. Edited March 19, 2012 by Nessirin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragamer Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 There are solo and 8v8 ranked WZs.You may not get great rating, but you still get points, and the unrated gear has the SAME EXACT STATS. I assume you haven't been playing on PTS if you're that misinformed? I didn't explain correctly, my bad... Queuing as a Solo player is not equal as playing as solo player... ...Once the match starts you have to play within a team. On 1.2, if you are disruptive or simply AFK you will be votekicked, earning exactly 0 rewards. The queue system is just a placebo to make ppl believe they are playing alone... Not true, it starts by the queue length, proportional to how many ppl are playing at the same time as you (And the horrible consequences for ppl with game schedules that differ from the average) and when the ranked system gets into will add a new layer of team interactions (Contrary to BW naive approach, I also include negative "group interactions" like the manipulation on ranks, were ranked teams will try to avoid others or the players that will be left out of dreamteams because their classes are not FOTM). Maybe I'm trying to extend the logic to too many different aspects at the same time... ...So lets get back to the basics. This is a link between playing solo vs playing in groups at high-end, and is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nessirin Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I didn't explain correctly, my bad... Queuing as a Solo player is not equal as playing as solo player... ...Once the match starts you have to play within a team. On 1.2, if you are disruptive or simply AFK you will be votekicked, earning exactly 0 rewards. The queue system is just a placebo to make ppl believe they are playing alone... Not true, it starts by the queue length, proportional to how many ppl are playing at the same time as you (And the horrible consequences for ppl with game schedules that differ from the average) and when the ranked system gets into will add a new layer of team interactions (Contrary to BW naive approach, I also include negative "group interactions" like the manipulation on ranks, were ranked teams will try to avoid others or the players that will be left out of dreamteams because their classes are not FOTM). Maybe I'm trying to extend the logic to too many different aspects at the same time... ...So lets get back to the basics. This is a link between playing solo vs playing in groups at high-end, and is wrong. I agree with that, mmos should be about grouping not solo play. While still catering to solo play. Hell, that's what social gear is for. It is what crafted gear is mostly for. Its what companions are for. I do -not- think that daily comms should give equal gear to actually spending time in raids (You pay for the license to play the game, and its not a single player game, where it only caters to you and you only). I guess I'm just looking at it from a pseudo-positive side in which we will still have better gear than the daily gear as soon as nightmare ops come out. As well as titles, mounts, pets and all the cool things that we get for raiding,including another story arc that a lot of players may not even experience (Although I doubt ,since the new story mode difficulty will most likely be easier than current normal mode). The things I value in raiding are things that don't go away: Experience with your friends and peers, challenges, "show off" things like mounts and titles. Like I said in my previous post, gear comes and goes, but those things stay forever with your character. On this note I shall say good night, because I'm having a hard time staying awake. I shall return to this thread tomorrow if its still around,heh. Edited March 19, 2012 by Nessirin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denarok Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I hope I am misreading correctly. Are you guys saying I never have to raid to get the top tier set 1.2? I can just solo it by doing dailies everyday? Please say that it is not so, if not it will kill raiding in this game. Most people will have no desire whatsoever to raid. All other MMO I have played you raid and usually get better loot that is only obtainable from raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaselle Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Dllaselle I am getting tired of you welfare people ruining Games because you do not want to raid. If you dont want to put the effort into raiding you should not get the gear. End of story. You do not need it. You people are Why the MMO community has crumbled to nothing but a big pile of ****. You feel that your $15 a month doing nothing but solo content = My $15 a month who runs a guild who works with people to get geared up to raid, then we raid and down boss content. You people CANNOT grasp the simplest concepts. You Raid you get Raid gear for downing a boss. You dont raid you dont get raid gear. End of story. First of all. I love to raid and raid continously with my guild. My point was nothing to do with raiding as a whole, but the acquistion of gear I personally believe that raiding should be for fun, challenge, and braging rights. Gear should be obtainablen by anyone. I have cleared all the content in this game as of now. I raid 3 times a week with my guild. So when you decide to run your mouth about "welfare people ruinin games" maybe you should learn more about the demographics of the people you are talking about it, instead of rage posting and making yourself look stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drosalion Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) as a tank, i can tell you now i would not even touch it unless it had tanking stats on it Any tank that just stacks endurance and ignores actual tanking stats is no better than a sentinel or such for tanking however the idea about having solo gear with presence on in abundance and lower other stats in general is a good one... If for example PvP gear is 100 main stat 100 endurance 100 expertise 50 secondary stat 50 secondary stat... PvE Flashpoint/Operation Gear is.. 150 main stat 150 endurance 75 secondary stat 75 secondary stat PvE Solo gear... 75 main stat 75 endurance 75 presence 50 secondary stat 50 secondary stat that would feel more or less balanced imo given the risk v reward of the gearing paths. assuming those are rough % The problem with something like that is that the PVE/Operation gear gives you stats that are usable in all situations and circumstances. Expertise is useless outside warzones. Presence is useless without a companion. Yet the stats given to Operation players has a use in flashpoints, operations, soloing, warzones, etc. Why should this be the case? If you wanted true equality there would be a 3rd stat that is purely for operations and useless outside of it (pve-expertise or something). Would raiders be happy with that? The only thing better then when entitled people use false logic to try and show why they should continue to be entitled is when the logic they use, in fact, shows how they are wrong. The guy with the bachelors degree will earn more money. So it's like he makes $100 an hour. The guy who doesn't have one makes $10 an hour. Your argument: The guy without a bachelors degree should never be allowed to own anything that costs $100, because you (having a degree) are simply a better and more worthy person. You EARN your money at your hard job while he just coasts by working at his min. wage job. My argument (and the way the world works): If that guys spends 10 hours at his job, he earns his $100 and can buy whatever the hell he wants. Raiding pays more then dailies. But if you spend time doing dailies, you earned loot. Get over yourself. I pretty much completely agree with this and it makes perfectly logical sense. Raiding in this game is not hard - you will get a full clear on hard/nightmare modes in ~1 hour per operation or 2 max for a bad run. The person who does belsavis/ilum dailies every single day for ~1.5 hours just to get one rakata implant a week is, in my opinion, putting in far more effort than the guy who raids for 2 hours a week and gets multiple pieces of armor. (For the record, im full best-in-slot rakata everything and i raid every week) Edited March 19, 2012 by drosalion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drosalion Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 This is why I'm looking forward to GW2. No carrot on a stick for stats. Gear is purely for aesthetics and not for stats. IMO they should just make all level 50 gear the same, but the better, cooler looking stuff for raids, HM, and NM. But then again this is Star Wars and not Guild Wars. I personally think thats a bad system and one major flaw with GW2 (although I agree technically that the current system in most MMO's is also bad). The problem with GW2 is that there is no progression beyond appearance. The key element of MMO's/RPG's and longetivity is progression, it is incredibly important. You say the better/cooler looking stuff should be left to harder difficulties - but what is better/cooler is purely opinionated (look at the top end armor in this game and peoples opinion on it for a perfect example). I personally like the lower-end armours in this game, so if a system like GW2 was implemented where people dislike the high-end armours and would do anything they can to NOT use them... then wheres the progression? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drosalion Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Power – adds melee, force and tech damage Force/Tech Power – Found on weapons, works like Power but does not provide melee/ranged damage Accuracy – Gives +hit and gives armor/spell pen over 100% Crit – gives melee, force and tech crit Surge – increased critical damage Armor – reduces physical and kinetic damage (all Tech and Force powers unless listed otherwise are Kinetic) Defense – increases Parry/Deflect (deflect is just ranged parry) Shield – increases chance to be shielded on attack Absorption – increases the % of damage shaved off shielded attacks Alacrity – Cast/channel Haste None of which you need if you are soloing. Presence – boots companion health, damage and healing is the only one you will need for Soloing. It makes your companion better. Your character does not need the stat boost if you are not raiding. Why are those stats not needed for soloing? They all give an advantage to the player. They make the content easier and the character more powerful. How is that they are ONLY useful in an operation? More useful.. perhaps, but they 100% without a doubt have a clear use in soloing, just like they have a use in PVP, or in operations, or doing literally any combat in the game. Why are all of these stats awarded for gear while levelling solo if they're not needed? Are you telling me you never ever upgraded a piece of gear when it had better secondary stats if the primary stats/endurance were the same? (the fact that it is clearly defined as 'upgrade' should be enough of a tell that it is in fact a benefit and required - even for soloing). I'm sorry but your whole post is just absolutely nonsensical. If you want there should be a 3rd stat alongside expertise/presence that ONLY functions in operations. And operation gear should have no stats BUT this new stat. Edited March 19, 2012 by drosalion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiyoma Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 This allows casual players to get some gear, as well as allowing people that have been shafted by loot to get something. The thing is, raiders are not supposed to be motivated by gear. People that want to raid should be motivated by challenge. Yes, this is unfavorable because of people's time and hard work spent to get that gear. Getting the second tier of gear isn't too bad though when we have 3 tiers. who the hell decided raiders aren't motivated by gear? since when? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLSilence Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Hmm, I could have sworn I saw bioware mention something about actually putting a tier specific to nightmare, but will be a little delayed and not on immediate 1.2 patch. Removing normal is fine, and as for the OP's quote there, it says "Campaign" 146 gear. This could mean Tionese sets. Like our current daily system giving you those level 50 mods that come out to par with the tionese raid set, which was completely worthless btw, there could logically be a 2nd tier at say.. 148 and the final tier at 150 in a new operation for the Tier 2?? Logic is overwhelming omg. Edited March 19, 2012 by DLSilence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krinaman Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 They want to be pretty and special and have the things that people put time in for. Their defense is "they don't have time". You realize that the guy doing dailies is going to put much more time in right? Nevermind the guy that hits 50 gets carried through the raids and gets full geared in a couple runs. We got a guy in our guild just hit 50 on NM raid day. Gets carried through two NM raids and has enough gear to get carried through the HM raid a couple days later. As the only Jedi Knight needing gear and Knight gear drops 3 to 1 for us he gets 5 rakata the first night. His second week he's got full rakata (maybe missing 1 piece). The guy can't even tell you where the raid is let alone the strats for each boss. Seriously, spare me this "put the time in", "earned it", non-sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alifaraaz Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I havnt read the whole thread - nor have I actually been on the PTS to see the specific gear, so apologies if the things I say are stupid. But maybe the commendation 'gear' means well not all the gear? Like we can currently get the rakata implants and module using daily commendations, it may be something similar with the new dailies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PalawaJoko Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) For fun. Farming dailies is kinda boring but why not have it as a viable option for some people? E: Meh... Cut the story I wrote Edited March 19, 2012 by PalawaJoko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragamer Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Raiding in this game is not hard I love "Raiding expert" impersonators... If Raiding is "not hard" why you prefer to stay hours doing dailies? Don't bother answering... It's a rethoric question to highlight the hypocresy of some ppl. They simply want to solo, as simple as that, this is not a matter of performance they are systematically antisocial and the "hard part" for them is agreeing with others on a common schedule to face challenges... ...The same hypocresy they hide by saying "gear shouldn't be a Raider motivation" but for the solo guy that doesn't need it to beat the content, suddenly IS the motivation to resist the "countelss boring hours" of grinding the same repeatable content. It's the same story... BW will have to choose if this is a solo game or a multiplayer game, one part will stay and the other leave... If after the confusion, that I repeat is general as there are still a lot of uknown details, the paradigm allowing a solo player to access the gear needed to reach the highest Tier of multiplayer content is kept... This will mean BW has already chosen. The only unknown magnitude is when the multiplayer gamers will realize what's going on. The multiplayer setup BW chosen is extremely fragile because teams are of a very reduced size... You just need 1 or 2 key persons saying "Raiding is too time consuming, I prefer daylies" and whole guilds will be floating around without manpower... From there it's all a spiral down. The bitter end of all this... Is that the multiplayer gamer needs as much ppl as possible interested in the activity, meanwhile this soloers just want to extinguish us by not having to bother to peek at multiplayer aspects to fullfill whatever goals they have in mind... After they kill multiplayer, obviously, as they will not have anything to envy, they will complain that there is too much grind and that there are better solo games alternatives and the cycle will finnally end with another MMO going F2P. Edited March 19, 2012 by ragamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melacon Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I love "Raiding expert" impersonators... If Raiding is "not hard" why you prefer to stay hours doing dailies? Don't bother answering... It's a rethoric question to highlight the hypocresy of some ppl. They simply want to solo, as simple as that, this is not a matter of performance they are systematically antisocial and the "hard part" for them is agreeing with others on a common schedule to face challenges... ...The same hypocresy they hide by saying "gear shouldn't be a Raider motivation" but for the solo guy that doesn't need it to beat the content, suddenly IS the motivation to resist the "countelss boring hours" of grinding the same repeatable content. It's the same story... BW will have to choose if this is a solo game or a multiplayer game, one part will stay and the other leave... If after the confusion, that I repeat is general, the paradigm allowing a solo player to access the gear needed to reach the highest Tier of multiplayer content... This will mean BW has already chosen. The only unknown magnitude is when the multiplayer players will realize what's going on. The bitter end of all this... Is that the multiplayer gamer needs as much ppl as possible interested in the activity, meanwhile this soloers just want to extinguish us by not having to bother to peek at multiplayer aspects to fullfill whatever goals they have in mind. And the solo gamer's do not promote your mmo, your competitive raid and pvp crowds do. It's pretty clear they have kotor 3 as a goal in mind for this game, so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaseer Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Just my 2cents take from it what you will. If a player wants to run dailies for weeks on end for raid gear so be it, thats his/her choice to make. If a raider hardcore or casual (like myself) takes the time to learn research what have you to kill a few bosses for gear that in itself might take weeks to drop for you admit it we've all been there that is our choice also raiders just have an extra avenue towards said peice of gear we just get the added bonus of saying we killed xxx boss which is what were in there for anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragamer Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 And the solo gamer's do not promote your mmo, your competitive raid and pvp crowds do. It's pretty clear they have kotor 3 as a goal in mind for this game, so be it. I don't think any company would have any degree of success convincing their solo playerbase to keep a 15 bucks/month on top of the "box" cost to play KOTOR 3. I just think some1 high on the hychearchy is just taking decissions looking at a small detail regarding sub drops and at the same time lacks the social experience to know what's needed to reach 10 years in the MMO bussiness... ...It's one of those small steps that seems like a good idea when you focus your attention on a portion of your playerbase and you lack the expertise to understand what will happen with another portion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanana Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 And the solo gamer's do not promote your mmo, your competitive raid and pvp crowds do. It's pretty clear they have kotor 3 as a goal in mind for this game, so be it. Solo gamers promote a game as much if not more than the "hardcore raiders". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragamer Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) If a raider hardcore or casual (like myself) takes the time to learn research what have you to kill a few bosses for gear that in itself might take weeks to drop for you admit it we've all been there that is our choice And what we do... ...with ppl that DOES BOTH? How much is going to last that content? I love "peacefull cohexistance" reassonings that ignore how things really work... ...As I suspect a PvP background I will put the situation in terms "more widely accepted"... ...What would you do if PvP gear could be get on lengthy boring PvE solo grinding sessions AND doing long queues waiting for a WZ? The above is not the most interesting question... ...What will force you, the WZ lover, to actually have to farm those PvE dailies? Think on the POWERFULL reasson above and now think that happens on PvE when performance is needed when facing the top challenges, specially when ppl is partially geared. Edited March 19, 2012 by ragamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rami__ Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Pre 1.2: - T1.1 Tionese available from NM/HM FP content and normal operations - T1.2 Columi available from HM FP content and normal/HM operations - T1.3 Rakata available from HM and Nightmare mode operations 1.2 - T2.1 Campaign gear available from dailies (might as well by equal to FP) and normal/HM new operation - T2.2 not yet available, and nor is nightmare mode on the new operation So you're complaining the 'new Columi' is available in exactly the same way the old Columi is available right now? They've already noted that Normal mode becomes 'store mode' now and will not have any influence on what gear you get, it's for the story. HM becomes the new base line to getting base line raiding gear, which you currently can get WITHOUT raiding already. Nightmare mode on the new operation will introduce the next level up and will not be available from solo content just like Rakata isn't. Flashpoints are short enough and small enough to be considered PUGable and thus solo. Of course, some of you already knew this. The main point here is that there are people who feel a need to have gear that is not available to anyone not playing the game the way they are. And to be honest, I wouldn't complain if it WAS that way, but it isn't and I'm not going to complain either. You'll get your carrot, I'm sure you'll survive a while not being able to stand around in fleet with armour noone else has. No matter which side of the argument you are on, elitism in MMOs is fading out. Mainstream is the norm and to be honest, I don't mind it half as much as I used to. Then again, the times when I did mind is when I was younger and did not have the IRL obligations I have now. The old guard of raiders is dying out, raiding every single night used to be hardcore, now 3-4 days a week is the norm. Don't worry, you'll get over it too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melacon Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Solo gamers promote a game as much if not more than the "hardcore raiders". Ok then Give me an example of an mmo that is mostly solo content that is also mainstream and successful? In fact, name one mmo that is considered successful that doesn't have end game raiding? That's all I ask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melacon Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Pre 1.2: - T1.1 Tionese available from NM/HM FP content and normal operations - T1.2 Columi available from HM FP content and normal/HM operations - T1.3 Rakata available from HM and Nightmare mode operations 1.2 - T2.1 Campaign gear available from dailies (might as well by equal to FP) and normal/HM new operation - T2.2 not yet available, and nor is nightmare mode on the new operation So you're complaining the 'new Columi' is available in exactly the same way the old Columi is available right now? Didn't read the rest of your post but that's not exactly the same.... If it were the same, Rakata would be accessible from dailies and HM FPs and NMs now would drop higher level tier. Dailies net you the same gear as HM, that is not the case now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endowed Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) The thing is, raiders are not supposed to be motivated by gear. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I dont think people understand what drove the hardest of hardcore raiding in mmos. A: Loot that few others could obtain. Bioware certainly hasn't the first clue about any aspect of mmos. Edited March 19, 2012 by Endowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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