Play style changes for Assault Vanguards in 1.2

[Abiyde]

I'm not interested in reading any more qq. Lets discuss how we're going to adapt and win.

 

What changes will you be making to your spec/rotations to maximise your contributions in 1.2?

 

With the Ionic Accelerator procs coming less frequently but more consistently, I think awareness of the lockout timer on IA procs becomes the key to playing Assault well.

 

For example, a number of Vanguards advocate opening with Ion Pulse over Incendiary Round because it is cheaper. In 1.2 you risk getting a IA proc and locking yourself out IA procs before your original High Impact Bolt is even on CD. So, at the start of fights, I'll be using IR, HIB and then Stock Strike or IP for the proc.

 

Once you have an IA proc, it might be worth saving SS to use as soon as the IA proc lockout comes off of CD to give you the best chance of proccing immediately. This might not actually be worth the loss of damage you suffer from not spamming SS whenever you can, but at the very least it will make sense to be aware of the IA lockout and hold off on SS if it is coming off of lockout in one or two seconds.

 

Finally, if HIB is about to come off of CD, it makes sense to avoid abilities that proc a CD reset so you can get a CD reset immediately after using HIB.

 

Since I presume we are not going to see the IA proc lockout, we are probably going to have to learn to count GCD or use six second rotations after an IA proc to keep track of the lockout.

 

Regardless, Assault Vanguards seem like they are going to require a lot more skill and attention after 1.2.

 

Good luck and let me know if I missed something or am just wrong.

[Taunque]

Not a qq but changes like this really highlight the inexperience of swtor's devs. An ability that has a high chance to proc but is limited with an internal cooldown is very clunky to play.

[Terrorshard]

I'd rather they just lowered the CD on HIB and make the skill do something else now. With the changes it is really dumb.

[Theology]

The new rotation will be as follows:

 

Opener: Same as before with TD (sticky) --> IM (incindiery round)--> (relics/adrenals) RS (HiB) --> RP(stock strike) (RS) FB (RS) -->

 

Rapid shots --> Rapid Shots --> Rapid Shots--> Rapid Shots --> RP(stock strike)/FB --> RS. Rinse and repeat.

 

Basically, you blow your wad for 6 seconds, max your heat/deplete your ammo, then auto-attack to auto-vent all the way back down, or up if using ammo.

 

Makes me sick just thinking about it.

 

(Don't know the trooper mirror name of Flame Burst/auto attack)

[Coramac]

I'm not interested in reading any more qq. Lets discuss how we're going to adapt and win.

 

What changes will you be making to your spec/rotations to maximise your contributions in 1.2?

 

The correct adaption is 8/31/2.

 

Seriously.

 

Specs have to be judged against each other. Typically, all specs will have some kind of strength or weakness. Now, Tactics will have better burst, better pressure, better ammo management, better target swaps, and a gearing advantage. The gearing advantage comes from having less reliance on HIB (and with an auto-crit proc, I don't think it can miss). This reduces the need for any accuracy on gear at all. It's not that meaningful right now, but my read on 1.2 is that we're getting significantly more gearing flexibility.

[Hethroin]

The correct adaption is 8/31/2.

 

...Now, Tactics will have better burst, better pressure...

 

Can you expand on why you think this, please?

 

Personally I don't see my 4/6/31 spec changing any at all with this patch... at least not at fist glance.

[va_wanderer]

Rotationwise, it really does make things a little rougher.

 

You proc HIB and fire it- and that gives you six seconds of burn time from HIB reignition, which makes SS -> HIB a narrow window afterwards at best. It'd have been better to make it 4.5 seconds instead-which would allow Pulse -> HIB -> three tics of whatever -> SS for a good chance to restart the cycle. As it stands, it might be more reasonable to just Ion Pulse at the lower odds and reignite the target and hope for the freebie HIB, THEN Stockstrike if it doesn't trigger.

 

For PvE DPS, Pulse Cannon just got more attractive. After all, that chews up 4.5 seconds of pushback-free energy damage between Accelerator coolddowns and isn't bad for ammo recovery time.

[va_wanderer]

For example, a number of Vanguards advocate opening with Ion Pulse over Incendiary Round because it is cheaper. In 1.2 you risk getting a IA proc and locking yourself out IA procs before your original High Impact Bolt is even on CD. So, at the start of fights, I'll be using IR, HIB and then Stock Strike or IP for the proc.

 

IR does get more chops in this because of it's long burn time, since right now straight-up plasma procs are sufficient but that will be unstable with that 6-second lockout in 1.2. It'll probably be worth it to keep the burn on after the change.

[Coramac]

Can you expand on why you think this, please?

 

Personally I don't see my 4/6/31 spec changing any at all with this patch... at least not at fist glance.

 

Tactics has always had better pressure. It's Ion Pulse hits very hard and, with it's far superior ammo friendliness, requires far fewer Hammer Shots in while pressuring. For clarification, I use pressure to refer to a non-1v1 situation where you are trying to bring a target into a burst range.

 

Assault currently does have the stars alignment RNG burst to burst targets down from high health- but this is rare to say the least. You really want your target to be 50% if equally geared and you need HIB up. This gives you a very strong chance of a kill within a 6.0-7.5 second window.

 

Tactics has pretty strong burst currently, but it is structurally different than Assault's. Burst damage can take many forms. For example, at a range, Assault's burst is largely a short window and back-loaded. Back-loaded burst is very nice because it typically minimizes reaction time- people don't know what's coming until it is too late (although Assault Plastique can give it away). You Incendiary Round, Assault Plastique, Full Auto, HIB. This is like a 3.5ish second window counting HIB travel time. The burst start with the Full Auto and is completed with the HIB (Compared to our more standard combo of something like Assault Plastique, Ion Pulse, HIB, Stock Stroke, Ion Pulse, Ion Pulse, HIB. Here's we're looking at a ~6-7.5 second window of gap burst. The damage is spilt heavily between the front and back (while front has more damage, the back end damage is still strong with the heavier DoT ticks and HIB finisher) of the window with much less damage in the interim. This does give players significantly more response time which is why you need a target to be in your burst range so that you have both properly accounted for a response and allowed yourself flexibility to improvise. You may not get a second HIB proc, Stock Strike + 2 Ion Pulses has a 27% chance of not getting a HIB proc, a third Ion Pulse reduces it to 19%. Your target may get too much healing to kill and cause you to put a delay in your combo to tab CC a healer or interupt a healer, Neural Surge without switching targets, or follow your burst with something like that to buy time to finish off the target. You may get any crits.

 

After 1.2, Assault will have to carry a HIB proc or wait for the CD to come up in order to execute it's normal burst combo. Carrying a proc means that it must burst a target at 4.5 seconds after proc or it loses the ability to execute normal burst or it can no longer pressure as it can't use Ion Pulse. The latter also means it cannot take advantage of the Plasma Cell snare effectively and has reduced target swapping capability as it is not applying the Plasma Cell DoT until after the front end damage of the burst combo, the ammo requirement is higher, and Incendiary Round simply does less damage than Ion Pulse initially, and there is a 4.5 second delay from a proc until the burst combo can be executed. The cumulative effect is very damaging.

 

If they make it so that the 6 second ICD doesn't activate if HIB is up, it will make a very big difference. It'll still be a big nerf, but it might not kill the spec's current functionality.

 

The Tactics burst is very heavily front-loaded and trails off significantly. As such it really doesn't have a window of time. It's Gut, Stick, Grenade, Fire Pulse, Stock Strike, HIB, Ion Pulse, Ion Pulse, Ion Pulse. Sticky Grenade, Fire Pulse, and Stock Strike will all hit at almost the same instant. HIB hits shortly after. This is basically instantaneous burst. The damage spike is typically much sharper but total damage is substantially less. It's better than Assault's burst if there isn't a second HIB largely due to a superior Stock Strike (Tactics gets Stock Strike Surge and is probably using Combat Tech for 15% Stock Strike crit) and the fact that the damage is more condensed as Fire Pulse's delay pushes the start of the damage window back a GCD.

 

Tactics also has a very nice Guard burst technique which becomes MUCH easier to pull off in 1.2. Guard has an inherent weakness to AoE if both the Guarding and Guarded players are caught in it. With Pulse Generator, a Guarding player will take 225% normal Pulse Cannon damage if the player he is Guarding is caught also as opposed to the 150% for players without Pulse Generator. It's a real tank killer. Giving Pulse Cannon a snare and interupt immunity is HUGE. It's an indirect buff to Hold the Line.

[Cryowolf]

Coramac,

 

Thanks for the great explanation above.

 

Could you possibly post a torhead link of the 8/31/2 spec you are referring to, with the understanding that it would refer to skill tree changes coming in 1.2? I tried tactics for a couple weeks running HEC (with Battlefield Training and Cell Generator) and I just couldn't get into it. Your post and the current upcoming 1.2 changes, however, have resparked my interest.

 

I'm curious what your opinion is between running HEC (typically regarded as subpar on these forums) or Ion Cell (for Guard utility and damage reduction) and what talents you feel are strongest/best among:

 

Containment Tactics

Blaster Augs

Power Armor

Tactical Tools

Battlefield Training

Cell Generator

[sensiblepoast]

I'm not interested in reading any more qq. Lets discuss how we're going to adapt and win.

Sure, easy enough. Reroll sentinel.

[grandmasterub]

This is the PvP version of the standard HEC tactics build.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMrorfkdsZb.1

 

This is the Ion Cell verstion of tactics for PvP.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hRMZMsrrobfkdsZb.1

 

I usually run the ion cell version and guard my healer buddy. It is not ammo friendly. You can still do solid damage but your ammo gets drained very quickly and you have to use Recharge Cells whenever its up and pray there isnt serious combat inc if its not.

 

I've run the HEC version as well and like posted above your rotation includes next to 0 hammer shots. Throw em in every once and awhile or if they're out of range but its mostly IP spam. Lots of dps, not as "burst" as assault but the reduced riot strike time makes you equally effective against healers imo.

 

I'm curious what your opinion is between running HEC (typically regarded as subpar on these forums) or Ion Cell (for Guard utility and damage reduction) and what talents you feel are strongest/best among:

 

Containment Tactics

Blaster Augs

Power Armor

Tactical Tools

Battlefield Training

Cell Generator

 

I dislike BF Training, especially with the extra upcoming snares. It doesn't stack with HTL and I honestly didn't ever notice the extra speed when I had it.

Edited March 20, 2012 by grandmasterub

[Coramac]

Coramac,

 

Thanks for the great explanation above.

 

Could you possibly post a torhead link of the 8/31/2 spec you are referring to, with the understanding that it would refer to skill tree changes coming in 1.2? I tried tactics for a couple weeks running HEC (with Battlefield Training and Cell Generator) and I just couldn't get into it. Your post and the current upcoming 1.2 changes, however, have resparked my interest.

 

Tactics is awkward coming from the other specs in my opinion, especially with Pulse Cannon. It's a tricky ability to use. On Assault, I'm at 10m range. I enter melee involuntarily or to move in for a kill for a increased chance to get a HIB reset. I use Full Auto a fair bit and open up on people at the 30m range. Playing Tactics now, all of that has changed. I'm much more frequently in the middle of things and in melee range for Stock Strike and to set up a Pulse Cannon. There's a lot of ways to deal with healers. You can tunnel on them, overwhelming healing with focus fire, harass them, CC them, or you can deal 20k+ to their team in 3 seconds and leaving them trying to figure out how to heal it.

 

I'm curious what your opinion is between running HEC (typically regarded as subpar on these forums) or Ion Cell (for Guard utility and damage reduction) and what talents you feel are strongest/best among:

 

HEC gets a bad rep due to Cell Generator's wording in my opinion. If it said "increases ammo regeneration by 25%, 50%, or 67% depending on current ammo regeneration," more people would probably like it. The 8% increase damage is very noticiable and so is the movement speed increase, but the latter only situally. The primary instance where the movement speed will be noticed is in traveling while in combat when not snared. I think snares eliminate movement modifiers. I'm not 100% sure, but when I'm snared, I can't notice the increase. If I've tagged someone at range with Hammer Shot, I catch up to them very quickly. I notice I can swap doors on Void Star much faster and cannons in Civil War (there's something really quirky about getting out of combat in this game).

 

That being said, Tactics has garbage survivability. Assault has far superior kiting ability (snare and Degauss) and Reflexive Shield is awesome. It's ranged (even 10m is still ranged) playstyle lets you position yourself out of harms way significantly easier; Tactics, not so much. If you have a good healer, you can easily run HEC and I do. Otherwise, it depends. It's not too bad though. Tactics runs Ion Cell far better than Assault.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801G0hZMsMMRrfkdsZb.1

 

This is the build I'm running currently. I do frequently use Ion Cell.

 

Containment Tactics

 

It's a "nice" talent, but there are few builds I'd run it in. It's my opinion judicial use of Cryo is better than trying to use it more frequently. There are going to be few times this is a talent you miss having, but there are times you will wish you'd taken it.

 

Blaster Augs

 

Awesome ability for 1 point.

 

Power Armor vs. Tactical Tools

 

Currently, I'm running with Tactical Tools. I do like Power Armor. It's even better when you run Ion Cell due to additive stacking. That being said, CDR on Pulse Cannon with Pulse Generator is critical. You also want a faster Harpoon for more frequently making the other team involuntarily volunteer to sit in a Pulse Cannon.

 

Battlefield Training

 

I like it and run it. It's not critical. I find it more frequently beneficial than what I could get otherwise.

 

Cell Generator

 

Is awesome.

 

Frontline Defense

 

I hate this talent. I wouldn't run it in any build with the possible exception of Iron Fist. It is a talent that looks great on paper but in practice if far less useful than would be expected. It's not that good against healers. There are far too many instants and the CDs + cast times of important casted heals do not sync well with this reduction. If it was 1.5 seconds per point, it's a completely different story. It is fantastic against Tracer spam. It's useless against Assassins and Shadows as they're uninteruptable when using their channel because that's the current FOTM. Mercenaries and Commandos have 15 second immunity to interupts on a CD. You can get peeled, escaped from, CC'd, and so forth which really minimizes the number of times this talent is going to be effective especially considering that against healers, you can't lock out a primary heal any better than without the talent. If it was a school lock, it's a completely different story.

[Cryowolf]

Thanks for the great reply! (and you too Grandmasterub)

 

I changed my spec last night to Tactics and I decided to go with this (the 1 point in Power Armor will be in the revamped Kolto Recharge for the snare): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801G0hZMsMrRMfkdsZb.1

 

Static Field feels like it gives the spec a little bit of toughness, particularly when I swap to Ion Cell. Nice to see someone else is already running with it, as well.

 

I am still testing leaving out Battering Ram. I didn't have any initial ammo troubles last night but I also didn't get a Void Star match. I'll be testing more thoroughly this week. I think I will try dropping Frontline Defense for Power Armor for the extra durability and see how that feels. Or putting the points in Battering Ram if I start to run into ammo shortage.

 

Hoping I can stick with Tactics until 1.2 releases so that I feel the full force of the upcoming buffs.

 

I also need alot of practice with getting off successful Pulse Cannons...

[Vaipyr]

they are going to require a lot more skill and attention after 1.2.

 

This is ALWAYS a good thing and I am looking forward to this change. Higher skill ceilings only leads to better gameplay from a competitive standpoint. Otherwise you see things like tracer spammers and sorc/sage facerollers.

[me_unknown]

... due to a superior Stock Strike (Tactics gets Stock Strike Surge and is probably using Combat Tech for 15% Stock Strike crit) ...

 

they are moving stockstrike surge from combat tech to tactics? Oo

this would kill iron fist like builds. could you explain this please?

edit : or do you simply mean the talent already existing in tactics?

Edited March 21, 2012 by me_unknown

[Meurto]

they are moving stockstrike surge from combat tech to tactics? Oo

this would kill iron fist like builds. could you explain this please?

edit : or do you simply mean the talent already existing in tactics?

 

I believe they are referring to the 4 piece bonus on the combact tech pvp armor. I am not aware of any changes to the shield spec tier 5 ability static surge.

[Coramac]

they are moving stockstrike surge from combat tech to tactics? Oo

this would kill iron fist like builds. could you explain this please?

edit : or do you simply mean the talent already existing in tactics?

 

Both Shield and Tactics have a surge talent for Stock Strike. Assault is the only tree that doesn't have it, and in an Assault build, you are probably running the Eliminator set. With Tactics having innate surge on Stock Strike, 9% more Aim, and 15% crit from Combat Tech set, it's Stock Strike is consistently more damage than Assaults even with Rain of Fire.

[Abiyde]

Another tactic we might be able to use is to save our procced HIBs until just before the 6s CD timer ends to try and get two HIBs with just one ability between them.

 

So basically, proc the CD reset -> 2 GCDs keeping ammo up/dotting target while the CD reset lockout counts down -> Assault Plastique/Sticky Grenade -> HIB -> Stock Strike (CD reset) -> HIB.

 

Obviously, if you don't get the CD reset on the Stock Strike then spam Ion Pulse until you do for the second HIB.