1.2 Mara buffed, Operatives nerfed... Absolutely baffling.

[Derian]

You're a bad marauder. Both you and Mufutiz are the kind of laughable marauders I see in warzones and I just /facepalm.

 

Annihilation will still do the highest single target damage. Not only that but the cd reduction on disruption is a gamechanger for top end PVP - though not for the kind of pug stuff you do.

 

If you were any good, you would know that the removal of rage costs to disruption and IR are going to be absolutely huge for PVP. Free disruption alone is +1 rage per 6 seconds since I interrupt on cooldown. The new 50% snare on rupture is also a huge buff to annihilation and improves my ramp up time.

 

Again, I play a marauder and I play it much better than you. I'm out there destroying healers every day, and these are fantastic changes for us.

 

You don't see the buffs, when for real PVPers, they are enormous.

 

There is no CD change on disruption. Also we lost force fade.

[AstralProjection]

The dark secret is that Combat/Carnage was never bad - it simply did not do as much damage as Annihilation/Watchman. This caused most Marauders to just write it off.

 

Thing is, the damage isn't that far behind, and you have so much more control. The roots on Master Strike/Crippling Throw are huge. The Ataru form passive movespeed boost is huge. It's more difficult to kite you since Blade Storm is now a big part of your damage, and crippling throw keeps people in range.

 

The utility (especially in Huttball!) more than makes up for the damage loss, but most Marauders simply think more damage is always better.

 

And now it's getting buffed even more, AND the PvE Ataru proc bugs are being fixed so it'll be viable there too. This pleases me greatly.

 

Problem is that Watchman does a decent amount more damage than Combat, probably 5-33% depending on your skill with either spec, AND heals your team for a percentage of that already larger damage.

 

I don't care how much control and mobility I used to have as a Combat Sentinel (and it was a lot, nobody could get away from you) I sacrificed a good chunk of healing and interrupts (you have a min range on your leap, plus longer CD kick) to get that.

 

For competitive team play most would agree team healing based on your damage output and the ability to frustrate a really good, geared healer are much more useful than keeping someone from running away. That healing also makes the defensive cooldowns a lot more useful.

[Stilly]

ya played GW2 beta, prepare for lame...

 

Great changes and some tweaks still needed on some, GL BW...

 

Nice try champ. Gw2 beta invites just went out like an hour ago.

[EternalFinality]

Combat/Carnage needed a buff and didn't get one.

 

Master Strike no longer interruptable. (With combat it roots, so no escape now)

 

Force Camo now has damage reduction that it didn't before.

 

Ataru form melee range discrepancies fixed for PvE bosses.

 

Crippling Throw (used more often by Combat) heal debuff can't be purged.

 

Cyclone slash buffed by Zen now in Ataru form (curious choice, but w/e)

 

Ataru Form procs damage increased.

 

It definitely got buffs. I'm not sure if I saw a bug fix for Opportune Attack in there though, which is troubling. The removal of Focused Leap (a nerf) is confusing.

Edited March 19, 2012 by EternalFinality

[AstralProjection]

Master Strike no longer interruptable. (With combat it roots, so no escape now)

 

Force Camo now has damage reduction that it didn't before.

 

Ataru form melee range discrepancies fixed for PvE bosses.

 

Crippling Throw (used more often by Combat) heal debuff can't be purged.

 

Cyclone slash buffed by Zen now in Ataru form (curious choice, but w/e)

 

Ataru Form procs damage increased.

 

It definitely got buffs. I'm not sure if I saw a bug fix for Opportune Attack in there though, which is troubling. The removal of Focused Leap (a nerf) is confusing.

 

Yeah, I phrased that poorly - Combat needed a buff to damage since it can't heal.

 

I would love to see raw data against geared opponents that says Ataru didn't actually get nerfed.

 

I don't understand how changing its damage type to the most dodged/mitigated type of damage and buffing it by only 10% is going to anything but hinder it as you face opponents with good equipment.

 

Maybe there's something I'm not getting about that, I just don't see that as a buff.

 

You could already Pacify a Combat Sentinel and laugh as you destroyed them as a Watchman. Now it's even working on the Ataru strikes.

 

Only thing I can think of is that Combat Sentinels are supposed to be the new Arsenal Mercs, pop Zen, and spam Blade Rush and Cyclone Slash til they vomit. Maybe Cyclone spam is going to be some new hidden OP jewel.

Edited March 19, 2012 by AstralProjection

[EternalFinality]

Problem is that Watchman does a decent amount more damage than Combat, probably 5-33% depending on your skill with either spec, AND heals your team for a percentage of that already larger damage.

 

I've found it to be closer to the 5% than 33% based on comparing my warzone damage against that of other geared Watchman Sentinels.

 

Well, after the combat log releases, at least we'll finally know.

 

I don't care how much control and mobility I used to have as a Combat Sentinel (and it was a lot, nobody could get away from you) I sacrificed a good chunk of healing and interrupts (you have a min range on your leap, plus longer CD kick) to get that.

 

Yeah, it's a tradeoff. Previously combat absolutely obliterated Snipers thanks to multiple roots preventing cover. This is changing according to the notes. You might not have as many interrupts, but you are less kitable so you can stay in melee range longer vs classes that try to keep you off.

 

For competitive team play most would agree team healing based on your damage output and the ability to frustrate a really good, geared healer are much more useful than keeping someone from running away. That healing also makes the defensive cooldowns a lot more useful.

 

That's greatly debatable about which is more valuable. You're not around your entire team all the time to give those healing ticks which aren't even that large to begin with. Also, you end up with a lot of fluff healing which is remarkably similar to the inflated AOE damage numbers everyone seems to ridicule.

 

Plus good geared healers will almost always try to LOS you to get time to heal, which is less viable vs combat.

[Howbadisbad]

Nice try champ. Gw2 beta invites just went out like an hour ago.

 

Maybe you should check again, invites have gone out before just now...

[EternalFinality]

I would love to see raw data against geared opponents that says Ataru didn't actually get nerfed.

 

I don't understand how changing its damage type to the most dodged/mitigated type of damage and buffing it by only 10% is going to anything but hinder it as you face opponents with good equipment.

 

I'm not sure the mitigation is any different. It was energy before which is armor mitigated the same as weapon damage. I think the difference will be which stats apply to boosting it since it's no longer force based. I think that's a buff, but we'll see.

 

I'm not sure how you can possibly argue a 10% damage buff hinders you in any way.

 

You could already Pacify a Combat Sentinel and laugh as you destroyed them as a Watchman. Now it's even working on the Ataru strikes.

 

Only works for 3 GCDs. If it happened to me I'd use Blade Rush (the weapon hits might miss but Ataru does not and still procs Combat Trance) -> auto Crit Blade Storm (force attack, ignores accuracy) -> Force Sweep (force attack, ignores accuracy).

 

If you just keep using weapon attacks yeah you'll miss. So don't do that.

 

Only thing I can think of is that Combat Sentinels are supposed to be the new Arsenal Mercs, pop Zen, and spam Blade Rush and Cyclone Slash til they vomit. Maybe Cyclone spam is going to be some new hidden OP jewel.

 

I'm also pretty sure that the Zen GCD reduction on Blade Rush and Slash doesn't even work right now, and I didn't see anything in the notes about a fix, so I hope they stealth fixed it....

[Derian]

The dark secret is that Combat/Carnage was never bad - it simply did not do as much damage as Annihilation/Watchman. This caused most Marauders to just write it off.

 

Thing is, the damage isn't that far behind, and you have so much more control. The roots on Master Strike/Crippling Throw are huge. The Ataru form passive movespeed boost is huge. It's more difficult to kite you since Blade Storm is now a big part of your damage, and crippling throw keeps people in range.

 

The utility (especially in Huttball!) more than makes up for the damage loss, but most Marauders simply think more damage is always better.

 

And now it's getting buffed even more, AND the PvE Ataru proc bugs are being fixed so it'll be viable there too. This pleases me greatly.

 

Agree with you 100% and I do not currently use watchman, but I used to be combat a while ago. It didn't need much in damage. Transendence boost is huge. It's a skill that can really help in WZs. With the control and speed Combat looks very nice.

[Marisblood]

Marauder - the strongest DPS in the game and arguably most powerful PvP class in organized PvP get massive buffs.

 

Operative - the weakest sustained DPS in the game has sustained DPS nerfed while keeping high burst.

 

This should confirm to everyone how clueless Bioware is when it comes to class balance. I've lost all hope. I hate to say it but this puts the nail in the coffin for me. I don't see bioware suddenly having an epiphany and understanding class balance any time in the near future. Do you?

 

Both classes need huge nerf. Operatives and marauders, scoundrel and sentinels.

This is the blunt truth. And combat log or incoming dps meter will prove it.

[AstralProjection]

I'm not sure the mitigation is any different. It was energy before which is armor mitigated the same as weapon damage. I think the difference will be which stats apply to boosting it since it's no longer force based. I think that's a buff, but we'll see.

 

I'm not sure how you can possibly argue a 10% damage buff hinders you in any way.

 

 

 

Only works for 3 GCDs. If it happened to me I'd use Blade Rush (the weapon hits might miss but Ataru does not and still procs Combat Trance) -> auto Crit Blade Storm (force attack, ignores accuracy) -> Force Sweep (force attack, ignores accuracy).

 

If you just keep using weapon attacks yeah you'll miss. So don't do that.

 

 

 

I'm also pretty sure that the Zen GCD reduction on Blade Rush and Slash doesn't even work right now, and I didn't see anything in the notes about a fix, so I hope they stealth fixed it....

 

I know what you're saying - here's why - because the Force damage skills aren't susceptible to dodging - now Ataru strikes are.

 

May not be as big a deal as I'm thinking, but unless you're boosting your accuracy to a higher level than previously required, your Ataru strikes won't still hit automatically in the pacify situation, because they're getting dodged now.

 

Like you said, Combat log will be a big help. I'm not dumb enough to claim I know this is making Ataru worse without actual data to back it up. I just know that good, well geared protective classes will be harder to damage than they were before for Combat with that change to the damage type, and I feel like the 10% damage boost isn't going to make up for what's lost in mitigation to white damage.

 

It's been a longstanding complaint of Gunslingers and Combat sentinels, most white damage means you're the most avoided damage dealers in the game, and Ironically you're some of the only pure DPS specs, who should be slightly better at dealing damage, if anything.

[EternalFinality]

I know what you're saying - here's why - because the Force damage skills aren't susceptible to dodging - now Ataru strikes are.

 

May not be as big a deal as I'm thinking, but unless you're boosting your accuracy to a higher level than previously required, your Ataru strikes won't still hit automatically in the pacify situation, because they're getting dodged now.

 

Like you said, Combat log will be a big help. I'm not dumb enough to claim I know this is making Ataru worse without actual data to back it up. I just know that good, well geared protective classes will be harder to damage than they were before for Combat with that change to the damage type, and I feel like the 10% damage boost isn't going to make up for what's lost in mitigation to white damage.

 

It's been a longstanding complaint of Gunslingers and Combat sentinels, most white damage means you're the most avoided damage dealers in the game, and Ironically you're some of the only pure DPS specs, who should be slightly better at dealing damage, if anything.

 

I'm suspecting a long-time-coming nerf to hit rate on force/tech attacks is coming down the road, because things can't be sustained as they are with accuracy. Then watchman is going to be hit hard, especially if the combat log shows a big a difference as many claim.

Edited March 19, 2012 by EternalFinality

[nachoman_randy]

Is amazing how much ppl try to pretend they are Sentinels/Marauders in this thread.

 

"I play a Marauder and now we are stronger, ***?!" What a big fat stinky lie.

[aspectsofwar]

Pretty much. It's sad that Bioware listened to the terribads like Mufutiz and Walsh.

 

Just watching the 3v3 stream that was floating around these forums made it obvious what the class balance changes should have been in 1.2:

 

EDIT: Found the stream:

http://www.twitch.tv/strikinginsanity/b/311379895

 

- Merc healer uninterruptability looked at

- Operatives and snipers needed buffs

- DPS mercs needed buffs

- Sorcs needed more survivability

- PT burst looked at

- Marauder survivability looked at

- Lack of data on juggs and assassins, no immediate changes needed

 

1.2 does pretty much the opposite of all this in nearly all categories.

 

I agree. I honestly don't think Bioware plays this game.

[EternalFinality]

I agree. I honestly don't think Bioware plays this game.

 

Or maybe because Bioware isn't balancing for ghetto 3v3 arena tournaments.

[GrandMike]

Or maybe because Bioware isn't balancing for ghetto 3v3 arena tournaments.

 

Yeah, they are balacing it around terribads like you.

 

But guess what? Not everyone is terribad and agrees with what they are doing.

Edited March 20, 2012 by GrandMike

[aspectsofwar]

Or maybe because Bioware isn't balancing for ghetto 3v3 arena tournaments.

 

What are they balancing for exactly? 1v1? Warzones? PVE? Ilum?

 

Their changes are so off the mark that they don't make sense in any of these situations. 3v3 at least is a simple and controlled way to show class balance in you know... group combat.

Edited March 20, 2012 by aspectsofwar

[Xerain]

What are they balancing for exactly? 1v1? Warzones? PVE? Ilum?

 

Their changes are so off the mark that they don't make sense in any of these situations. 3v3 at least is a simple and controlled way to show class balance in you know... group combat.

 

3v3 balance is not going to be the same as 8v8 balance...

 

I'm not sure why merc heals are getting nerfed so hard, maybe they're too good in pve according to biowares internal metrics.

 

Whats up with people and complaining about maras survivability? Seriously learn to stun the undying rage and wait then smash them. Ranged classes can always run away till Cloak of Pain falls off... none of you have thought of that... there are easy ways around it.

[aspectsofwar]

3v3 balance is not going to be the same as 8v8 balance...

 

I'm not sure why merc heals are getting nerfed so hard, maybe they're too good in pve according to biowares internal metrics.

 

Whats up with people and complaining about maras survivability? Seriously learn to stun the undying rage and wait then smash them. Ranged classes can always run away till Cloak of Pain falls off... none of you have thought of that... there are easy ways around it.

 

Actually I would say 3v3 is the most common match up in any warzone other than initial rush at the beginning. It can be more or less than that but on average its about 3v3. This is why I feel this is a good mark to base class balance on.

 

BTW a good operative is not going to blow his stun cooldown while your undying rage is up. That stun is too crucial for a kill and almost necessary for an operative to actually take someone down. The idea is to use it while your defenses are NOT up so you cannot use them. Otherwise you are wasting the stun completely. Sometimes we do have to blow the stun while your undying rage is up just to stay alive, which ruins our chance for a kill, but hey those are the only options for an Op in those situations.

[glenbruton]

1.2 is looking like a possible disaster.

 

Their understanding of top end PVP class balance is very poor if this is the patch notes they come out with.

 

They could have just asked any strong PVP guild and come up with much better than this.

 

DOOOOOOOOM

 

Same thing before every patch in every game i swear!

[Zhaker]

I dont know how people like you keep can be so deluded as to deny what is obviously true. I guess its just better for you when you think that every class you play is underpowered. This way you can feel really good about yourself when you kill someone in PvP.

 

1. I have full champion gear

 

2. I am able discern the % remaining on my quite clearly illustrated health bar

 

3. I notice through experience that every time an operative that is well geared opens up on me from stealth i lose half my health because i can clearly read the % number on my health bar and see the bar itself. Not to mention the fact that this clearly stands out, as literally NO other class in the game does damage to me this quickly.

 

4. You will now try to tell me im terrible. No, i am not bad, and even if i were, that would have no bearing whatsoever on the amount of damage i can take while my character is stunned/knocked down as that is completely beyond my control.

 

Conclusion - Operatives do way too much damage.

 

I guess its now time for you to make quit/rage threads because your clearly overpowered class is getting fixed.

 

So nerfing the OP burst so that you can beat them up is the correct way to play an Operative. No wonder this game is getting *******r by the minute. If they didnt have that burst they be nothing. Tell me, what will the OP role fill now since their burst DPS means nothing?

[TheGreatNeechi]

Examining the patch notes more closely, especially the Maurauder/Sentinel and Operative/Scoundrel changes, I think Bioware is balancing between specs, not classes.

 

Concealment is common amongst Operatives. It is the most popular spec for the class. I think Bioware took this popularity to mean "Overpowered", and is trying to bring it in line with the other trees.

 

I can see that. I get it. You want players to have 3 good choices of specs rather than the optimized cookie-cutter builds notorious in WoW. Have they gone about it the wrong way? I think so. Instead of nerfing one spec against the others, why not fix the others to be as attractive?

 

Good question, and I think perhaps this may be where class balancing is a problem. If they were buff Operative Medicine and Lethality to the caliber of Pre 1.1.1 Concealment the class would likely be way, way overpowered. So, they're going to simply fix those two specs and then nerf concealment to be less attractive. This is terribly short sighted, because if concealment is as attractive as medicine and lethality, then the class as a whole will have lost any selling points. Compromising sh*t is still sh*t.

 

The Marauder on the other hand appears to have been treated differently. I suppose it was decided buffing the underplayed specs did not break any balancing acts. I don't know. I don't play Marauder. What I do know is Bioware's approach to this is frustrating and puzzling.

[aspectsofwar]

Examining the patch notes more closely, especially the Maurauder/Sentinel and Operative/Scoundrel changes, I think Bioware is balancing between specs, not classes.

 

Concealment is common amongst Operatives. It is the most popular spec for the class. I think Bioware took this popularity to mean "Overpowered", and is trying to bring it in line with the other trees.

 

I can see that. I get it. You want players to have 3 good choices of specs rather than the optimized cookie-cutter builds notorious in WoW. Have they gone about it the wrong way? I think so. Instead of nerfing one spec against the others, why not fix the others to be as attractive?

 

Good question, and I think perhaps this may be where class balancing is a problem. If they were buff Operative Medicine and Lethality to the caliber of Pre 1.1.1 Concealment the class would likely be way, way overpowered. So, they're going to simply fix those two specs and then nerf concealment to be less attractive. This is terribly short sighted, because if concealment is as attractive as medicine and lethality, then the class as a whole will have lost any selling points. Compromising sh*t is still sh*t.

 

The Marauder on the other hand appears to have been treated differently. I suppose it was decided buffing the underplayed specs did not break any balancing acts. I don't know. I don't play Marauder. What I do know is Bioware's approach to this is frustrating and puzzling.

 

Its an interesting theory and could be true. Who really knows what they are thinking though. It would quiet the community a bit if they would explain but that is very rare for bioware.

[GeoLager]

Biowares logic:

 

When everyone only plays jedi/sith classes, the game will be balanced.

[Xerain]

 

The Marauder on the other hand appears to have been treated differently. I suppose it was decided buffing the underplayed specs did not break any balancing acts. I don't know. I don't play Marauder. What I do know is Bioware's approach to this is frustrating and puzzling.

 

It's exactly what has happened. marauder as a whole wasn't really buffed just tweaked. The combat/carnage specs got a little buff where as both watchmen/annihilation and focus/rage got tweaks but no real buffs.