Thanks for Killing Sage/Sorc

[Tsubodia]

It was my understanding that an assassin hybrid already got the nerf bat. So really? How did everyone miss that fact?

 

assassin hybrids got nerfed yes buyt their 31point builds are still strong. Sorc 31point builds are pathetic and from a competitive pov sorcs will be a very unloved class where assassins will still shine.

 

not to mention when assassin hybrids got nerfed their other abilities got some buffs

[Tsubodia]

Just looks like they're moving away from "spammable" AoE in WZ, heres to hoping single target gets a small boost. And really did you expect to see the hybrid specs live forever? the killing of the Sin hybrids specs should have given it away.

 

well the aoe that got spammed can still be spammed. CL still had a 6sec cd and ppl generally only used it on wrath proc. it also hits harder single target than lightning strike which is why the hybrid was the chosen build.

 

the hybrid spec was bound to be nerfed yes. but they havnt nerfed what needed nerfing. .the stackable control. Those that ran a high cc spec will still do. those that didnt will be left screwed.

 

also as i said above sins got some sort of compensation for the nerf. socs/sages get nothing here

[maradigamer]

assassin hybrids got nerfed yes buyt their 31point builds are still strong. Sorc 31point builds are pathetic and from a competitive pov sorcs will be a very unloved class where assassins will still shine.

 

not to mention when assassin hybrids got nerfed their other abilities got some buffs

 

Someone in another thread is predicting rateds will be full of tankasins, if so, I'm sure they will get nerfed.

 

Meanwhile, I'm happily playing a dps sin, not because it's better, even while leveling it isn't, but because it's more fun. So even if I'm still around for that, it won't affect me. In fact, maybe if tankasin does eat a nerf, the dps trees will get some love.

[Tsubodia]

Someone in another thread is predicting rateds will be full of tankasins, if so, I'm sure they will get nerfed.

 

Meanwhile, I'm happily playing a dps sin, not because it's better, even while leveling it isn't, but because it's more fun. So even if I'm still around for that, it won't affect me. In fact, maybe if tankasin does eat a nerf, the dps trees will get some love.

 

 

yh but you got the key word in there. its still fun. Sorcs/sages are already squishy enough as is and now cant even kite ppl properly due to cl removal from wrath ect. the fun factor of the class will vanish quite fast i think as ppl are able to just lolnuke us down. Its bad enough melee already destroy us as is and with the changes to sorcs/sage luined with the other changes to melee.. its just going to become a melee fest

[Leekae]

Just a tip from a 10+ year mmo vet. If it's the most played class, it probably needs a nerf.

[maradigamer]

yh but you got the key word in there. its still fun. Sorcs/sages are already squishy enough as is and now cant even kite ppl properly due to cl removal from wrath ect. the fun factor of the class will vanish quite fast i think as ppl are able to just lolnuke us down. Its bad enough melee already destroy us as is and with the changes to sorcs/sage luined with the other changes to melee.. its just going to become a melee fest

 

I didn't find sorc/sage fun before, it got really boring to pve with and in pvp anytime you face a premade, they just burn down sorc first, if that sorc is actually healing or otherwise useful as far as utility and objectives.

 

Sin is much more fun. Sorry the hybrid sorc kite spec got nerfed, didn't really mind fighting them, except when three or four worked well together, they're tougher in groups than any other class combo, imo. I didn't really care if anything got nerfed (of course I don't have the dps numbers bioware does, either), but there's no need to howl for a tankasin nerf when the hybrid already got nerfed. At least, no need to howl yet. If they breed like rabbits in the next few weeks and overrun rateds, then I'm sure the howling will get some attention.

[richardya]

I would have preferred leaving sage/sorc as they were and just removing snare from force lightning.

 

I except when three or four worked well together, they're tougher in groups than any other class combo, imo.

 

I always said that too. It is so easy to focus fire with that graphic. Obviously range can focus fire easier than melee but with that graphic it was playable by a monkey. Too much of the defensive stuff for the healer were available to the dps as well.

 

I am not saying that they won 2v1's and that was unfair. Anyone will win 2v1. But they were able to consistently and easily focus people down with no effort or communication. And if you beat on one, they had some easy get out of jail free cards.

 

Compare them to GS.

The snare attached to the range attack combined with the graphic combined with the channeled as opposed to activation made them way better.

Edited March 18, 2012 by richardya

[fungihoujo]

Just looks like they're moving away from "spammable" AoE in WZ, heres to hoping single target gets a small boost. And really did you expect to see the hybrid specs live forever? the killing of the Sin hybrids specs should have given it away.

 

That's the problem- single target didn't get a boost, and Sins were different, their full specs were viable. Nobody runs a full dps spec sorc because 31 point talents do nothing for your damage. Lightning spec is extremely immobile while also having lackluster damage and burst, while Madness has good damage over time, but, no burst at all.

 

From metrics, sure, sorcs can do a great deal of damage. But anyone who is even mildly competent at pvp knows that burst is far, far more vital than sustainable in pvp.

 

Fact is, even with CL, sorcs already were the poorest burst class in the game- sure, we had high aoe and dots, but those were easily outhealed. We're like a glass canon without the canon part now- and even our heal takes 3 seconds, so in the end all we have is 'we can get big numbers... if people leave us alone entirely'.

 

Sorcs are dead until they boost top of tree talents like they should have. We have a DoT spec (which also negates all our CC except our stun) that is pretty weak for quick damage (you want a real dot spec? look at marauder annihilation tree).

 

 

There's many things they could do-

 

-Remove the top talent for Madness, put in instead an ability that either eats all dots to do their remaining damage plus 1000 instantly, or, does 1000+250 per dot on the target, 6 sec CD. Make affliction have a root as a second from top tier talent (2 sec/4 sec for 2 talent points), make affliction stack up to three times, give it a 6 second CD to prevent it from being spammed of everyone (which in turn, greatly reduces long term dps). Crushing darkness needs to do damage to put it on the same level as CL- increase application damage by 50% and dot damage by 50%.

 

-Lightning- increase how much damage lightning strike does, since it's used in the same manner as TM- make it do damage like TM does or add a debuff to reduce armour or increase energy damage to the target. Double the damage of the 31 point talent. Add a snare to lightning strike to make up for the fact that lightning spec makes you immobile, or, make lightning strike usable while moving.

 

 

Just a few things that could make lightning spec useful, and lower the overall dps of Madness while giving it some much needed burst.

[Thundartwothree]

That's the problem- single target didn't get a boost, and Sins were different, their full specs were viable. Nobody runs a full dps spec sorc because 31 point talents do nothing for your damage. Lightning spec is extremely immobile while also having lackluster damage and burst, while Madness has good damage over time, but, no burst at all.

 

From metrics, sure, sorcs can do a great deal of damage. But anyone who is even mildly competent at pvp knows that burst is far, far more vital than sustainable in pvp.

 

Fact is, even with CL, sorcs already were the poorest burst class in the game- sure, we had high aoe and dots, but those were easily outhealed. We're like a glass canon without the canon part now- and even our heal takes 3 seconds, so in the end all we have is 'we can get big numbers... if people leave us alone entirely'.

 

Sorcs are dead until they boost top of tree talents like they should have. We have a DoT spec (which also negates all our CC except our stun) that is pretty weak for quick damage (you want a real dot spec? look at marauder annihilation tree).

 

 

There's many things they could do-

 

-Remove the top talent for Madness, put in instead an ability that either eats all dots to do their remaining damage plus 1000 instantly, or, does 1000+250 per dot on the target, 6 sec CD. Make affliction have a root as a second from top tier talent (2 sec/4 sec for 2 talent points), make affliction stack up to three times, give it a 6 second CD to prevent it from being spammed of everyone (which in turn, greatly reduces long term dps). Crushing darkness needs to do damage to put it on the same level as CL- increase application damage by 50% and dot damage by 50%.

 

-Lightning- increase how much damage lightning strike does, since it's used in the same manner as TM- make it do damage like TM does or add a debuff to reduce armour or increase energy damage to the target. Double the damage of the 31 point talent. Add a snare to lightning strike to make up for the fact that lightning spec makes you immobile, or, make lightning strike usable while moving.

 

 

Just a few things that could make lightning spec useful, and lower the overall dps of Madness while giving it some much needed burst.

 

I agree for the most part, thats why I said "heres to hopeing", all in all remember these are the first illeterations of the notes, I'm pretty sure we'll see more adjustments as the PTS rolls on.

[richardya]

From metrics, sure, sorcs can do a great deal of damage. But anyone who is even mildly competent at pvp knows that burst is far, far more vital than sustainable in pvp.

 

Sorcs always say this. It makes no sense. I understand when burst is better, for example if you see one person guarding a node and want to 1v1. But in the majority of fight in WZ's people are not fighting 1v1 and the sorc damage is in incredible. Don't underestimate the power of AoE damage.

[fungihoujo]

Sorcs always say this. It makes no sense. I understand when burst is better, for example if you see one person guarding a node and want to 1v1. But in the majority of fight in WZ's people are not fighting 1v1 and the sorc damage is in incredible. Don't underestimate the power of AoE damage.

 

AoE damage that is now completely gone- leaving sorcs with neither. And yes, it is extremely easier to heal a bunch of mild dots on everyone than to heal all that damage being dealt to one person.

 

Burst is always more useful in any situation where you want your targets to die, particularly when healing and tanking is as strong as it is. Only situation where this would be different is if there was no healing or mitigation.

Edited March 18, 2012 by fungihoujo

[PloGreen]

As a 50 sage I'm not really bothered about the changes. Look, at the end of the day you have a sizeable portion of the populace who just get on with it, and a minority that come and whine about sorc/sage/mara/shadow/grav spam on the forums. Do you honestly think the people that whine about "OP classes" or make nerf threads are going to become competitve overnight after this change? Of course they won't. They will always suck because good players don't whine - they adapt.

 

I could see the nerf to the hybrid variation coming at some point, simply because the hybrid specs (where you are proccing tele wave) were actually more beneficial than full balance or full telekinesis. Was it OP? Against noobs ye it was pretty potent (who isnt?) but against equally geared players with experience? No not really.

 

It isn't the death of sorc/sage, that is overblown hyperbole if i ever heard it. Just means that old spec and playstyle is dead, and we adapt and find new ways to be effective. I'm certainly not convinced sorc/sage is a crap one v one class, and I don't agree after the changes that it will hurt all that much. Our strengths are in utility and cc and we still have those. Most likely until a spec is found that is worthwhile alot of sage/sorc will go full balance, which is a very solid tree.

 

Wait and see. I'd put a tenner on still being very competitive and also, in future patches I expect a buff to the top tier talents , since mmos are always evolving anyway.

 

After patch 1.2 i expect the same players will still complain that sorc/sage is op because that is what they are good at, complaining. Some of these kids dont like a challenge and are of the mememe, narcisstic, i want it out now generation.

 

Basically not much will change imo.

[Luckorforever]

Why all the QQ? Because you need skill now to be good with sorc?

[richardya]

it is extremely easier to heal a bunch of mild dots on everyone than to heal all that damage being dealt to one person..

 

As I said and will respectfully not say again after this, AoE damage is underrated. You are on a team. If you are doing 2k damage (ie) to everyone around you, you may:

• Cause healers to waste an AoE heal
  
• Cause people to blow their Medpacs
  
• Help every fight that your teammates are in
  
• Not to mention the multiplicative factor of many AoE'ers
  

 

I am just saying that high AoE damage is far from useless. Everyone in many areas of these threads focuses on 1V1.

Edited March 18, 2012 by richardya

[fungihoujo]

As I said and will respectfully not say again after this, AoE damage is underrated. You are on a team. If you are doing 2k damage (ie) to everyone around you, you may:

• Cause healers to waste an AoE heal
  
• Cause people to blow their Medpacs
  
• Help every fight that your teammates are in
  
• Not to mention the multiplicative factor of many AoE'ers
  

 

I am just saying that high AoE damage is far from useless. Everyone in many areas of these threads focuses on 1V1.

 

And you seemed to have missed that now that aoe damage is gone- this is our aoe now. A 3 target attack on a 15 second CD- that's it.

[richardya]

And you seemed to have missed that now that aoe damage is gone- this is our aoe now. A 3 target attack on a 15 second CD- that's it.

 

Nope, I was not commenting on that. I was just commenting that people downplay AoE damage. I will wait to see sorc's post nerf before I decide if this was good or bad.

Edited March 18, 2012 by richardya

[fungihoujo]

Nope, I was not commenting on that. I was just commenting that people downplay AoE damage. I will wait to see sorc's post nerf before I decide if this was good or bad.

 

How can not having CL in our only viable specs be a good thing? Would you truly have to wait and see if a pyrotech spec is still good if they just took out rail shot?

[Tsubodia]

Why all the QQ? Because you need skill now to be good with sorc?

 

you sir. are a fool. Evil being the most skilled sorc in the world after these changes, you will still suck compared to every other class in terms of being a competetive class for rated wz. well maybe not as much as operatives but close enough.

 

also thos ppl who just spammed aoe were not even close to "good" high damage from aoe spamming does not = a good player

[justadude]

a group of marourders (spelling fail) or bh was a lot more deadly than a group of sorcs/sages. sorcs are just a lot more obvious for 2 reasons.

 

1) the "HEY IM OVER HERE" lightning making them very visible + the slow

2) they take longer to kill you so you are more aware they are there

 

being burst down in a matter of seconds by maros and bh combos ppl always seem to forget more than the long slow anoying death at the hands of 2 sorcs

 

Again people are missing the point. Chain Lightning may have done a lot of damage, but it was the added CC that made sorcs OP.

 

A well played Operative can take my health from 20k to 3k, but if I am fast I can avoid that, just like I can get out of the way of a few Marauder. There was no running from a group of Sorcs.

[Dudious]

Again people are missing the point. Chain Lightning may have done a lot of damage, but it was the added CC that made sorcs OP.

 

A well played Operative can take my health from 20k to 3k, but if I am fast I can avoid that, just like I can get out of the way of a few Marauder. There was no running from a group of Sorcs.

 

 

Why would you run away from a Sorc?

[GrandMike]

Why would you run away from a Sorc?

 

Because he sucks. I was always running TOWARDS sorcs for an easy kill or enjoyment of watching the pillar hump whole WZ.

[justadude]

Why would you run away from a Sorc?

 

You obviously need to practice reading.

[justadude]

Because he sucks. I was always running TOWARDS sorcs for an easy kill or enjoyment of watching the pillar hump whole WZ.

 

I have some land in Alaska I would like to sell to you dirty cheap.

[Wiseaxe]

I would just like to correct you, if you think CD is increased by 20% your wrong =) The DOT dmg after the initial blow is increased by 20% - IF it consumes wrath. Just saying =)

 

No dude. The initial DD aspect of the spell always had its 20% increase based on presence of mind proc. The dot was not affected, and now Is.

 

You stand corrected.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Wiseaxe