Combat Spec Bug??

[KythEndrance]

On the Combat Tree for Sentinel, we have a passive ability called (I think) Opportune Strike. This ability gives us a 10% damage buff to our next focus spending attack. It is activated upon a successful Ataru Strike.

 

We also have our top talent ability (the one at the top of the tree whose name eludes me at the moment... merciless slash?) that produces an automatic Ataru Strike, every time.

 

However....

 

This automatic Ataru Strike DOES NOT activate the Opportune Strike buff, even though based on the ability description, I believe it should.

 

This effectively decreases our dps by about 10% over what it SHOULD be. Anyone else notice this problem? Thoughts?

[Belly]

The tooltip is incorrect. From what I have heard, it's actually 15%/30%. It's correct on the Marauder's Carnage tree. Edited March 15, 2012 by Belly

[LancerKagato]

combat is sadly gimped......hopfully BW will fix it

[Vodrin]

The tooltip is incorrect. From what I have heard, it's actually 15%/30%. It's correct on the Marauder's Carnage tree.

 

That sounds correct. The Marauder tooltip for execute (mirror for opportune strike) indeed states that it has a 30% chance to proc on any ataru form hit. I would think the sentinel version would function the same.

 

Having this truly function with a 100% proc chance would be a good way of buffing combat DPS though.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Vodrin

[Venator-Falco]

combat is sadly gimped......hopfully BW will fix it

 

So Combat is too hard for you to play is it?

There is nothing “Gimped” about combat.

Some people understand how to play it, and make good use of it, Some people don’t

[Mal-Sharran]

So Combat is too hard for you to play is it?

There is nothing “Gimped” about combat.

Some people understand how to play it, and make good use of it, Some people don’t

 

It's a widely acknowledged fact that Combat suffers from numerous mechanical bugs.

 

- The animation for Blade Rush is laggy and causes frequent stutter, resulting in lowered dps. (Merc Slash, and Slash, have no such issue)

- The well known problem with Ataru strikes not procing properly depending on hit box size.

- Master Strike snare works half the time or less in PvP, and frequently misfires, where you go through the entire 3 second animation without actually performing the action, effectively stunning you for the duration.

- The entire concept of Precision Strike makes Combat in PvP terrible, if you are unable to follow up with your rotation due to being rooted, stunned, mezzed, knocked back or slowed, directly after using Precision Strike, you have to wait an entire 15 seconds before trying again, during which time your dps suffers.

- Opportune Attack consumes, but does not buff, Blade Storm, despite the fact Blade Storm consumes Focus.

 

There are others but those are the ones I recall off the top of my head. The spec is BROKEN and the concept is FLAWED.

 

I leveled from 10 to 50 as Combat and I loved it. I felt OP. I could handle anything. I never felt gimped, but despite all that I can stand back and look at the spec objectively. It suffers from many problems that need to be addressed by BW before it will stand toe to toe with Watchman.

[Ainianu]

- The animation for Blade Rush is laggy and causes frequent stutter, resulting in lowered dps. (Merc Slash, and Slash, have no such issue)

animation hitches slightly when under zen due to its being designed for 1.5 GCD and zen lowers that to 1.0 instead. The damage however goes in exactly as it should and the animation stutter does not reduce its damage even at all, have tested it a lot.

(this however may be linked to the ability delay issue some have that got fixed? i never had the issue in the first place so unsure how it worked)

 

- The well known problem with Ataru strikes not procing properly depending on hit box size.

I have not noticed a problem with Ataru strikes not hitting due to hit box size, nor heard of it before... any link to this? id be interested to know if its a proper bug that may effect me and if it does... how i get around it.

 

- Master Strike snare works half the time or less in PvP, and frequently misfires, where you go through the entire 3 second animation without actually performing the action, effectively stunning you for the duration.

THIS is very true and very annoying and really hope they fix it. It does not happen often but when it does you can still fire off other abilities while going through animation at least, it just happens that this usually 'bugs' on moving targets that are running away from you, so likely only a blade storm or crippling throw.

 

- The entire concept of Precision Strike makes Combat in PvP terrible, if you are unable to follow up with your rotation due to being rooted, stunned, mezzed, knocked back or slowed, directly after using Precision Strike, you have to wait an entire 15 seconds before trying again, during which time your dps suffers.

Combat dps can be effected by good use of CC more than watchman, but given how much more damage the combat burst is compared to watchman i think its a fair trade. Also precision is not 'that' vital to the burst, depends really on what your hitting, there is not much tanks in pvp, its all sorcs and mercs anyways.

 

- Opportune Attack consumes, but does not buff, Blade Storm, despite the fact Blade Storm consumes Focus.

hrm, did not know that, but 10% damage on bladestorms now and then is not a gamebreaker, but hopefully they do fix that too. (again wouldnt mind a link that covers this just so i dont have to test it myself)

 

 

Overall i dont think Combat is as broken as people think... its got a couple bugs that need fixing, most notably that master strike animation locking thing (and the other two if they are true) But this does not stop it being a very viable and infact extremely potent spec for those that know how to play it

Edited March 16, 2012 by Ainianu

[Mal-Sharran]

animation hitches slightly when under zen due to its being designed for 1.5 GCD and zen lowers that to 1.0 instead. The damage however goes in exactly as it should and the animation stutter does not reduce its damage even at all, have tested it a lot.

(this however may be linked to the ability delay issue some have that got fixed? i never had the issue in the first place so unsure how it worked)

 

Try timing 6 consecutive BR under Zen. While allowing for latency and the fact nothing is perfect in this world, you should still pump them out in 7 seconds? It generally takes 7.5-8 seconds, which is only knocking off 1 full second from what it would normally take to dish out 6 BR in a row. My latency avg. is about 55ms in game, so the impact it has is minimal for me.

 

I have not noticed a problem with Ataru strikes not hitting due to hit box size, nor heard of it before... any link to this? id be interested to know if its a proper bug that may effect me and if it does... how i get around it.

 

It's difficult to detect if you aren't actively looking for it. It appears to be most frequent in PvP when at the very edge of your opponents hit box. Blade Rush should hands down proc Ataru, no matter what. Ataru is in fact a quick, second strike that instantly follows any attack that procs it. You actually swing your weapon fast as lightning, if you've never noticed. It's hard to see in PvP because by its nature, PvP is hectic. But I've witnessed it enough to tell you first hand that Ataru does not always proc from BR, so I have to assume the natural chance to proc from all other attacks is also affected.

 

THIS is very true and very annoying and really hope they fix it. It does not happen often but when it does you can still fire off other abilities while going through animation at least, it just happens that this usually 'bugs' on moving targets that are running away from you, so likely only a blade storm or crippling throw.

 

Yeah granted you aren't 100% prevented from 'action' but being a self-imposed root on a melee class that depends on mobility...we're in agreement on this.

 

Combat dps can be effected by good use of CC more than watchman, but given how much more damage the combat burst is compared to watchman i think its a fair trade. Also precision is not 'that' vital to the burst, depends really on what your hitting, there is not much tanks in pvp, its all sorcs and mercs anyways.

 

Even a clothy in PvP gear can have 10% or more damage reduction vs. Kinetic/Energy, I personally have 25% in medium armor. For Combat, which relies 100% on Weapon/Kinetic/Energy damage, armor pen is beyond amazing. Everything you do, EVERYTHING, when Precision isn't up, is blunted by 25% against me, and that's not even counting my 8% Exp. I think you're underestimating this ability. You aren't GIMPED when it isn't available, but...

 

*edit* Also, Merc Slash hits harder than anything Combat has, hands down. It hits harder than a Blade Storm with Precision, it hits harder than Blade Rush with Precision. One 'nuke' doesn't constitute burst, but it does make up for our lack of burst.

 

hrm, did not know that, but 10% damage on bladestorms now and then is not a gamebreaker, but hopefully they do fix that too. (again wouldnt mind a link that covers this just so i dont have to test it myself)

 

I've seen others on the forums confirm it, sadly I do not have links. But from my time as Combat, I remember my Blade Storm crits were almost exactly 3600 EVERY SINGLE TIME (I haven't been Combat in over a month and my gear has more than tripled in quality since). A 10% boost to that would be recognizable, I probably did well over 1000 Blade Storms, with Precision up, and the number was so consistent that I guarantee Opportune wasn't working.

 

*edit* My Blade Storm crits never varied more than 100 damage, ever (while Precision was up).

 

Overall i dont think Combat is as broken as people think... its got a couple bugs that need fixing, most notably that master strike animation locking thing (and the other two if they are true) But this does not stop it being a very viable and infact extremely potent spec for those that know how to play it

 

I love Combat. I've said it several times in various posts over the last 2 days. I want to go Combat again. I love the style, the utility, the feel, everything about it. I resisted going Watchman for ages. How could DOTS hold a candle to all this burst damage?! amirite? Wrong...having played both equally now, Combat IS gimped. I simply can't deny it. Watchman does more damage and has more survivability. Beyond a ranged snare (which I miss mightily) Watchman is just superior. I hope they fix Combat, but until then...

Edited March 16, 2012 by Mal-Sharran

[Ainianu]

Try timing 6 consecutive BR under Zen. While allowing for latency and the fact nothing is perfect in this world, you should still pump them out in 7 seconds? It generally takes 7.5-8 seconds, which is only knocking off 1 full second from what it would normally take to dish out 6 BR in a row. My latency avg. is about 55ms in game, so the impact it has is minimal for me.

 

I honestly do not get this same delay, they are pretty much spot on the time they should be.

 

It's difficult to detect if you aren't actively looking for it. It appears to be most frequent in PvP when at the very edge of your opponents hit box. Blade Rush should hands down proc Ataru, no matter what. Ataru is in fact a quick, second strike that instantly follows any attack that procs it. You actually swing your weapon fast as lightning, if you've never noticed. It's hard to see in PvP because by its nature, PvP is hectic. But I've witnessed it enough to tell you first hand that Ataru does not always proc from BR, so I have to assume the natural chance to proc from all other attacks is also affected.

 

Going to try look out for this now, but i can now see why it perhaps 'may not' work, since i notice ataru procs land slightly after the hit that procs them, so i imagine this not landing is when you hit.. and they are out of range when ataru should land? that would be my guess and i am gonna try recreate this in duels with a friend.

 

Even a clothy in PvP gear can have 10% or more damage reduction vs. Kinetic/Energy, I personally have 25% in medium armor. For Combat, which relies 100% on Weapon/Kinetic/Energy damage, armor pen is beyond amazing. Everything you do, EVERYTHING, when Precision isn't up, is blunted by 25% against me, and that's not even counting my 8% Exp. I think you're underestimating this ability. You aren't GIMPED when it isn't available, but...

 

*edit* Also, Merc Slash hits harder than anything Combat has, hands down. It hits harder than a Blade Storm with Precision, it hits harder than Blade Rush with Precision. One 'nuke' doesn't constitute burst, but it does make up for our lack of burst.

 

Granted Precision helps for sure, but sometimes i find it easier to not use precision, rather than have to build more focus and then use it. But as BM with ~12% expertise anyway (and the fact i tend to pop adrenal and relic with zen) whatever i am hitting melts in seconds anyway, and often burn through 2-3 enemies on zen if they are not great geared.

 

I've seen others on the forums confirm it, sadly I do not have links. But from my time as Combat, I remember my Blade Storm crits were almost exactly 3600 EVERY SINGLE TIME (I haven't been Combat in over a month and my gear has more than tripled in quality since). A 10% boost to that would be recognizable, I probably did well over 1000 Blade Storms, with Precision up, and the number was so consistent that I guarantee Opportune wasn't working.

*edit* My Blade Storm crits never varied more than 100 damage, ever (while Precision was up).

I will take your word for it for now, assuming its true id agree it would be something needing to be fixed. il test it myself also though and bug report it myself if i confirm it for sure.

 

 

I love Combat. I've said it several times in various posts over the last 2 days. I want to go Combat again. I love the style, the utility, the feel, everything about it. I resisted going Watchman for ages. How could DOTS hold a candle to all this burst damage?! amirite? Wrong...having played both equally now, Combat IS gimped. I simply can't deny it. Watchman does more damage and has more survivability. Beyond a ranged snare (which I miss mightily) Watchman is just superior. I hope they fix Combat, but until then...

 

I love all 3 spec's i played them a lot, Watchman is fun for being able to keep stealthers in sight where you want them, and for its healing/survivability , Focus is fun for its big AoE bombs on huttball ball carrier and all that huddled around him or voidstar bomb placements etc. Combat honestly does a lot more damage than Watchman in short time frames, and thats all that is needed in PvP for the most part. Me and a few other sentinels also have tested it in PvE to find Combat dps overall higher but that is not really something measurable very well currently so cannot claim it as fact. (the other sentinel friends of mine do not do pvp though so their spec's differ a little from mine)

 

This is not to say 'your wrong' but our experiences clearly differ and it may be down to the ability delay issue that i am aware some get and some do not. neither me or my brother get this issue.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Ainianu

[Mal-Sharran]

More power to you then, I really do hope to return to Combat at some point. It always comes down to personal skill too, obviously, but the ONLY scary Sent/Mara I run into are Watchman/Focus. Maybe I've just never run across a good Combat, it's possible. Cheers and happy hunting.

[Metaspark]

There is no denying Combat has many flaws and bugs that need to be fixed. Trying to do so is like trying to deny that the sun rises every day

 

 

 

 

This is coming from a guy that flat out refuses to even try Focus or Watchman

[TristQueloon]

When I started my sent (only at 35 atm), I read all the forums and was told Watchman was the only way to go.

 

So thats what I leveled up as so far.

 

In my experience, despite combats problems, and watchmans "superiority", its mostly playstyle and situation.

 

Watchman does more damage, and has a Heal. Which is great. However the dps only outdoes combat over a longer period of time. There was someone who tested fighting a world boss and tested his dps based on the bosses health left after five minutes and watchman did like 3x the damage of combat.

 

Ok Great, but how many PvP fights are you hitting on the same guy for 5 minutes? None for me, most PvP fights per person are under 1 minute.

 

So I thought I would give combat a try. In PvP my damage droped about 50k dps on average according to the scoreboard. But my medals uped by 2, My kills increased alot, and I find my self just seeming to cause more damage in the fight.

 

Watchman does more dps overall cause your putting bleeds on lots of people. However all the dps does not = kills. And tbh in PvP, killing a player and taking him off the map for a few seconds seems better to me than just being able to drain 1/3 hp of everyone on the team.

 

But in PvE, I really miss watchmans ability to heal and burn down strongs/elites. I was able to just keep my burns up, get some healing, and see them melt. With combat, trash mobs die in seconds, but the strongs/elites are hard. They take all my frontload burst and get to about half health, but then Im stuck just striking and slashing in a race towards who dies first, and its a close race usually.

 

Then again, im not 40 yet. Once Blade Rush and respectable Merciless Slash is opened up to me, I will have alot more to test and figure out.

 

But so far I prefer watchman for PvE, and Combat for PvP

[Game-Hermit]

There was someone who tested fighting a world boss and tested his dps based on the bosses health left after five minutes and watchman did like 3x the damage of combat.

If you're talking about the test I think you are it was nowhere close to 3 times more. It was more like 20-30% or something.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Game-Hermit

[Ainianu]

There was someone who tested fighting a world boss and tested his dps based on the bosses health left after five minutes and watchman did like 3x the damage of combat.

 

Calling this into question when i have done the same test... in Combat and Watchman and Combat came out higher damage, but by such a small margin i would regard them as equal.

 

I would still regard Watchman as a better PvE Operation spec however, with damage over long time frames being about equal and Watchman bringing additional healing... it does seem better suited for operations.

 

But as stated... Combat DPS is higher by far (as in damage-per-second... short time frame ) and that is very nice for pvp

 

Ive said many times, Combat does not suck as some claim, its perfectly viable, its got a few bugs that really need fixing, but its still viable and imo Watchman's equal even without the bug fixes, it has different strengths and weaknesses and is a little harder to play, but in right hands, both specs are awesome

[Mal-Sharran]

Calling this into question when i have done the same test... in Combat and Watchman and Combat came out higher damage, but by such a small margin i would regard them as equal.

 

I would still regard Watchman as a better PvE Operation spec however, with damage over long time frames being about equal and Watchman bringing additional healing... it does seem better suited for operations.

 

But as stated... Combat DPS is higher by far (as in damage-per-second... short time frame ) and that is very nice for pvp

 

Ive said many times, Combat does not suck as some claim, its perfectly viable, its got a few bugs that really need fixing, but its still viable and imo Watchman's equal even without the bug fixes, it has different strengths and weaknesses and is a little harder to play, but in right hands, both specs are awesome

 

I want to start by saying I'm not calling YOU out. I have NOT done this test myself. However, for a real test to occur, the tester would have to be extremely comfortable with both specs and ensure he/she knew how to get the most out of both. Sure, some people could do this. But most are much more comfortable with one, and uneasy with the other, simply due to experience/lack of experience.

 

I honestly believe, from just my gut, that both specs are within 10% of each other. Which is ahead? I dunno. I do feel Watchman pulls away in longer fights, but there aren't many fights that last long enough to make this a real 'pro' in a pros/cons list between the two specs. It's all speculation until Combat logs hit, and even then, changes to both specs will make them essentially new specs, so nobody will ever know for sure how the original Combat and original Watchman performed against each other.

[Ainianu]

I want to start by saying I'm not calling YOU out. I have NOT done this test myself. However, for a real test to occur, the tester would have to be extremely comfortable with both specs and ensure he/she knew how to get the most out of both. Sure, some people could do this. But most are much more comfortable with one, and uneasy with the other, simply due to experience/lack of experience.

 

I honestly believe, from just my gut, that both specs are within 10% of each other. Which is ahead? I dunno. I do feel Watchman pulls away in longer fights, but there aren't many fights that last long enough to make this a real 'pro' in a pros/cons list between the two specs. It's all speculation until Combat logs hit, and even then, changes to both specs will make them essentially new specs, so nobody will ever know for sure how the original Combat and original Watchman performed against each other.

 

I wont deny that i am way more comfortable with Combat than Watchman, but i did spend a lot of time prior to doing this test with a friend of mine who is 'very' good with watchman spec (even if its mainly from pvp perspective) dueling and becoming more comfortable with it myself. And in my tests i DID take into account my familiarity with Combat so that when my Combat trial turned out more damage than Watchman by a little.. i assumed them to be roughly equal.

 

But you are indeed correct, many people have tested both spec's in whatever ways we have available to us, and everyone seems to get vastly different results from one another, and likely as you say... based on which spec people are more comfortable with (the watchman friend i mentioned actually died to the tatooine boss whilst in combat spec trying the same test as me, and despite me having worse gear than him.. i managed to survive it to complete the test in both spec's )

 

... tbh even with combat logs in the future players skill with the spec may still be in question on comparisons

Edited March 17, 2012 by Ainianu

[AidanLightwalker]

Blad storm does benifit from the 10% during my experience. In my current gear, a bs with precision slash up it normally crits for about 2800 ish and sometimes crits for 3050 ish. I notice this alot because i was pumped when it started hitting for 3k and bummed when I'd see it just shy under. And this happens on everything from trash to elites, champs and hm bosses.

[Dizzident]

combat is sadly gimped......hopfully BW will fix it

 

k lol

[Asphen]

There is no denying Combat has many flaws and bugs that need to be fixed. Trying to do so is like trying to deny that the sun rises every day

 

 

 

 

This is coming from a guy that flat out refuses to even try Focus or Watchman

 

 

 

 

Do you even Deadlift?

 

 

You are robbing yourself out of a lot of fun, not even trying out some of the other spec. May 1.2 change your mind. Also, the force be with you.

[Finndali]

The Ataru not proccing bug has been acknowldged by the devs, and the fix is even mentioned in the test notes.

And apparently its most noticeable on the larger op bosses.

 

Regarding Combat vs Watchman, even if they'd do equal damage, that would still mean Watchman is currently superior.

- healing!

- better centering generation (fixed with 1.2)

- better survivability thanks to force camo (fixed with 1.2, notice a trend here?)

- better force leap (which confuses me more than everything else, shouldn't ataru be the "bounceybounce" form?)

[Mal-Sharran]

I went from Combat for over a month, to now Watchman for well over a month. At first, coming from Combat, I had a helluva time adjusting to using Leap in combat for Focus generation. I mean, as Combat, you leaped in and that was it. Now that I can leap at any range, on a reduced cd, I may not be able to give that up, even if Combat does have superior burst (which is better for PvP).

 

I dropped 80% Transcendence today to prepare myself. 50% isn't even worth using out of combat, it's a whole whopping 15% faster than Sprint. And still barely worth using IN combat, it isn't fast enough to escape, and if you aren't escaping, then you're fighting, and Zen is more powerful. I will of course TRY Combat, but I think I may be stuck Watchman now, the perks are still too attractive to ignore...