Darth_Mister Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) I am a pure tank in PvP and I love playing that role. As a pure tank I do not expect to be a leader in dps as my role is to mitigate damage for my team and harass healers. Conversely, I do expect to have the highest survivability, but I’m not sure I do. It’s my perception, BH/Trooper healers have the highest survivability in PvP followed by Inq/Sorc healers. This seems a little askew IMO. I have no metrics to support what I’m about to describe, just the many hundreds of games it takes to get to 62 Valor level. My question is about tradeoffs in PvP . The classic example is me and three dps trying to take down a node guarded by two healers. We can focus on one healer with me interrupting most of his heals and he can just stand there while the other healer easily heals through the damage. We can split up with me on one healer interrupting most his heals and the three dps focus the other healer. The focused healer just stands there healing through the damage and the healer I’m on doesn’t have to worry about me killing him and just needs to get a heal off from time to time to help keep his healing buddy up. Another example is me, one on one, with any healer. Even with all my interrupts and dmg mitigation, I’ll never be able to kill the healer but they will be able to kill me, especially if it’s an Inq/Sorc. So where are the tradeoffs? The most obscene example I’ve seen is a BH/Trooper healer, solo, with five players wailing on him and he just stands there healing himself for a good 15 to 20 seconds until his buddies arrive and bail him out. Really?! Let’s take my second example. I accept that I’m not a killing machine and will never generate enough dps to overcome the healer’s heals, but conversely the healer should not be able to generate enough dps to overcome my “tankiness”. So let’s talk about “tankiness” in PvP. I have 660 expertise, 20K hp buffed, a shield, high AC, etc., but if I fight a heal spec’d Inq/Sorc, I swear none of that seems to matter. In fact, the Inq/Sorc seems far more “tankiness” than I. I even logged to the other side to see what stats these folks have and they had 100 to 150 less expertise and were using high end PvE gear in several slots. ***?! Again, where are the tradeoffs? Please educate me on what’s going on in PvP. What’s the design philosophy that I don’t seem to understand? Thanks ahead of time. Edited March 14, 2012 by Darth_Mister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashmadai Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) Healers are very powerful in pvp, no doubt. Teams with 2 or 3 very good healers are damn hard to beat, because beating them requires very disciplined play, with dps split across the healers, good CC, etc. In your example of 4 v 2 against healers, that should be an easy win though. I play a Vig guardian, and I always pressure healers. If I come to a node on civil war with an enemy healer, the first thing I'm doing is running up to him, force pushing him as far as I can away from the battle, then leaping to him, then hitting him with stasis and a snare. If my other teammates can't do some serious damage in the seconds I've taken the healer out of the fight, chances are we're going to lose anyway. Edited March 14, 2012 by Ashmadai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachcomberb Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) To the OP. Most of your Tank stats dont work in PVP, especially against force damage. Edited March 14, 2012 by Beachcomberb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashmadai Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 To continue, I fully believe in the future healers will be nerfed, and I think it'll probably be done via a mortal strike debuff applied by players. The 30% is not enough now, and chances are multiple specs will have to be given a 20% healing debuff like sentinel/marauder has now to stack on. As for being survivable in pvp, certain ACs are much more survivable. I'm a Guardian who is in dps spec and gear, but I'm quite a bit harder to kill with my CDs up than most. Shadow/Assassin tanks even in dps gear are very hard to kill as well. I don't buy Zoeller's explanation at the guild summit that tanks who don't stack defensive stats are choosing to do it to get a benefit against sorcs and what not, but making themsevles weak against snipers/marauders either. The fact of the matter is, shield generators are just not as useful in pvp as they should be to make people want to spec in a tank spec. If all tank specs had talents like particle acceleration or harnessed shadows, then sure, we'd spec tank for pvp, but right now, guardians/vanguards and their mirrors basically have no reason to spec tank in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmarx Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) The classic example is me and three dps trying to take down a node guarded by two healers. We can focus on one healer with me interrupting most of his heals and he can just stand there while the other healer easily heals through the damage. We can split up with me on one healer interrupting most his heals and the three dps focus the other healer. The focused healer just stands there healing through the damage and the healer I’m on doesn’t have to worry about me killing him and just needs to get a heal off from time to time to help keep his healing buddy up. Another example is me, one on one, with any healer. Even with all my interrupts and dmg mitigation, I’ll never be able to kill the healer but they will be able to kill me, especially if it’s an Inq/Sorc. So where are the tradeoffs? The most obscene example I’ve seen is a BH/Trooper healer, solo, with five players wailing on him and he just stands there healing himself for a good 15 to 20 seconds until his buddies arrive and bail him out. Really?! Look, it's obvious you're very inexperienced at PVP. Healers are not at all overpowered, and drop quite quickly to coordinated dps + interrupts (merc healers excluded, though 4v2 is very doable). You need to google PVP guides for swtor (there are plenty) and watch some videos. If you cannot 4v2 a couple of sorc or operative healers, there's something very wrong with the way you (or the other 3) use interrupts. Learn which spells you should interrupt, what cooldowns the healers are using, and then you can shut them down. That you use a shield in PVP also means you don't get how shields work. There's a lot more I could tell you but I'm not your personal tutor. Google helps those who help themselves. Edited March 14, 2012 by Redmarx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exphryl Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 The most obscene example I’ve seen is a BH/Trooper healer, solo, with five players wailing on him and he just stands there healing himself for a good 15 to 20 seconds until his buddies arrive and bail him out. Really?! This is more of a your team problem, than the BH Healer being overpowered... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da_krall Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) BH healer suvivabilty is very OP, but mainly in randoms. If you are on comms and you rotate interupts until he pops his bubble then stun you might be able to kill on in a focus, and this is assuming they are jsut standing their and take it - it they pillar hump it becomes even harder. They are easily the most survivable of healers. Sorc or Oper have decent suvivbiltiy if they pillar hump - otherwise a couple of DPS will finish them off easily. However healers do not have guard or taunts, tanks do, use them. And if a heal spec character is killing you the fight has to be lasting many minutes - or you are doing something very wrong. Like other have said lose the tank stats and get DPS gear. Edited March 14, 2012 by da_krall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowflab Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 this is more of a your team problem, than the bh healer being overpowered... qft!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenbenobi Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I am a pure tank in PvP and I love playing that role. As a pure tank I do not expect to be a leader in dps as my role is to mitigate damage for my team and harass healers. Conversely, I do expect to have the highest survivability, but I’m not sure I do. It’s my perception, BH/Trooper healers have the highest survivability in PvP followed by Inq/Sorc healers. This seems a little askew IMO. I have no metrics to support what I’m about to describe, just the many hundreds of games it takes to get to 62 Valor level. My question is about tradeoffs in PvP . The classic example is me and three dps trying to take down a node guarded by two healers. We can focus on one healer with me interrupting most of his heals and he can just stand there while the other healer easily heals through the damage. We can split up with me on one healer interrupting most his heals and the three dps focus the other healer. The focused healer just stands there healing through the damage and the healer I’m on doesn’t have to worry about me killing him and just needs to get a heal off from time to time to help keep his healing buddy up. Another example is me, one on one, with any healer. Even with all my interrupts and dmg mitigation, I’ll never be able to kill the healer but they will be able to kill me, especially if it’s an Inq/Sorc. So where are the tradeoffs? The most obscene example I’ve seen is a BH/Trooper healer, solo, with five players wailing on him and he just stands there healing himself for a good 15 to 20 seconds until his buddies arrive and bail him out. Really?! Let’s take my second example. I accept that I’m not a killing machine and will never generate enough dps to overcome the healer’s heals, but conversely the healer should not be able to generate enough dps to overcome my “tankiness”. So let’s talk about “tankiness” in PvP. I have 660 expertise, 20K hp buffed, a shield, high AC, etc., but if I fight a heal spec’d Inq/Sorc, I swear none of that seems to matter. In fact, the Inq/Sorc seems far more “tankiness” than I. I even logged to the other side to see what stats these folks have and they had 100 to 150 less expertise and were using high end PvE gear in several slots. ***?! Again, where are the tradeoffs? Please educate me on what’s going on in PvP. What’s the design philosophy that I don’t seem to understand? Thanks ahead of time. If you have all tank skills then you cannot have insane dps. Cc and interrupt heals should works just fine. You sure can kill Inq/Sorc if you are a better player with tank. Speck differently in pvp you cannot manage win 1 vs 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da_krall Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 To the OP. Most of your Tank stats dont work in PVP, especially against magic damage. What is magic damage? or more correctly which damage type do you mean when you say magic??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachcomberb Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 What is magic damage? or more correctly which damage type do you mean when you say magic??? Sage damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSteak Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Tanking is meant to be done with a healer at your back in pretty much every instance in this game. Sure you can throw a guard on your DPS buddy, but that means you get focused while the healers you're fighting heal forever. Once you die, your DPS quickly follows. Guard a healer and you're immortal until you get focused by at least 4 players. That's really the most useful advice I can possibly give. Guard a healer and stay in their range. If you can distract enough people in huttball, the rest of your team should be able to score. If it's you two against half their team in Voidstar, you outlast them until your team shows up to help. If it's you two against a group in CW, you'll pretty much never make a cap, but you'll definitely be able to defend it. Another fun tactic is to guard a teammate taking damage, AOE taunt, and watch the six seconds of panic. Assuming of course that you don't get focus fired immediately by a coordinated group. That's happened to me several times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Mister Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Healers are very powerful in pvp, no doubt. Teams with 2 or 3 very good healers are damn hard to beat, because beating them requires very disciplined play, with dps split across the healers, good CC, etc. In your example of 4 v 2 against healers, that should be an easy win though. I play a Vig guardian, and I always pressure healers. If I come to a node on civil war with an enemy healer, the first thing I'm doing is running up to him, force pushing him as far as I can away from the battle, then leaping to him, then hitting him with stasis and a snare. If my other teammates can't do some serious damage in the seconds I've taken the healer out of the fight, chances are we're going to lose anyway. This is precisely what I do. Moreover, I pretty much know all the healer's names on the enemy side. Most of them have talked to me giving me props for being so annoying. Obviously I can only control what I do, so I guess I'm screwed if there isn't enough dps being generated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmarx Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Sage damage. Sage/sorc damage is mitigated by armor (yes, that lightning stuff is the same as melee attacks/white damage). It cannot be blocked/dodged however. Internal and elemental damage (some dots, flame type abilities, etc) bypass armor, and some cannot be blocked/dodged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Mister Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 To the OP. Most of your Tank stats dont work in PVP, especially against magic damage. OK, but what's the function of expertise? If I have 100 to 150 more expertise than my opponent, how should that manifest itself in PvP? I'm not sure I'm seeing the benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Mister Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Look, it's obvious you're very inexperienced at PVP. Healers are not at all overpowered, and drop quite quickly to coordinated dps + interrupts (merc healers excluded, though 4v2 is very doable). You need to google PVP guides for swtor (there are plenty) and watch some videos. If you cannot 4v2 a couple of sorc or operative healers, there's something very wrong with the way you (or the other 3) use interrupts. Learn which spells you should interrupt, what cooldowns the healers are using, and then you can shut them down. That you use a shield in PVP also means you don't get how shields work. There's a lot more I could tell you but I'm not your personal tutor. Google helps those who help themselves. I pretty much ignored most of what you said because you'd rather attack and berate (typical elitest PvP attitude), but I'm curious about your shield comment. I have the BM shield generator. As it's not a weapon and has tanks stats on it, what more is there to understand? I await your furture attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tampabucks Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 sorry to tell you but heavy armor doesn't protect you from force damage. thats why sorc/inqis will usually beat tanks if they go heal spec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Mister Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 BH healer suvivabilty is very OP, but mainly in randoms. If you are on comms and you rotate interupts until he pops his bubble then stun you might be able to kill on in a focus, and this is assuming they are jsut standing their and take it - it they pillar hump it becomes even harder. They are easily the most survivable of healers. Sorc or Oper have decent suvivbiltiy if they pillar hump - otherwise a couple of DPS will finish them off easily. However healers do not have guard or taunts, tanks do, use them. And if a heal spec character is killing you the fight has to be lasting many minutes - or you are doing something very wrong. Like other have said lose the tank stats and get DPS gear. I'm using my taunts, guard, and guardian leap. I'm pulling down 150K or more in defense in any given WZ. As for purchasing DPS gear, why is there a PvP tank set then? If all of these stats don't matter, why is the gear in the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachcomberb Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 OK, but what's the function of expertise? If I have 100 to 150 more expertise than my opponent, how should that manifest itself in PvP? I'm not sure I'm seeing the benefit. Expertise reduces damage and increases damage for all clases. As we give up damage, a tank expects to last a fair bit longer. Fight a Gunslinger who uses physical attacks and youll see your shield absorbing a lot of attacks. Fight a sage/sorc and youll see your shield absorbing nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Mister Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 If you have all tank skills then you cannot have insane dps. Cc and interrupt heals should works just fine. You sure can kill Inq/Sorc if you are a better player with tank. Speck differently in pvp you cannot manage win 1 vs 1. Did I typo? I agree. I don't have insane dps, nor should I. I use all my CC and interrupts available. My opponent healers complement me on my tenaciousness and play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachcomberb Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) As for purchasing DPS gear, why is there a PvP tank set then? If all of these stats don't matter, why is the gear in the game? People have been asking that since Beta. Edited March 14, 2012 by Beachcomberb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrocanis Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I pretty much ignored most of what you said because you'd rather attack and berate (typical elitest PvP attitude), but I'm curious about your shield comment. I have the BM shield generator. As it's not a weapon and has tanks stats on it, what more is there to understand? I await your furture attack. Perhaps I'm a bit dense. (OK - I admit I can be more than "a bit" at times). I don't see him attacking and berating (other than a single snide comment about being a personal tutor), but his post does have merit. It's how I've learned. He's not being elitest because he's not explaining everything to you. There are too many possible combination of attacks from the sundry classes to teach you how to deal with all of them. He's trying to give you resources with which to improve your play to the point that your understanding improves. Not like the guy above that simply calls you names. He didn't. He's just frustrated with the various people coming to this forum and screeching "Nerf EVERYTHING!" (as am I) and instead is trying to get people to learn that PvP is not the same as leveling against NPCs - it requires more than brute force and a cookie cutter spec. That's all. I would suggest that you ignore those who attack you (and be sure that they are, in fact, attacking) and try to get what you can out of advice. Remember that text does not convey nuance or body language. For those who think PvP here is bad, I have one word: Rift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowflab Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 this is more of a your team problem, than the bh healer being overpowered... qft!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Mister Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Expertise reduces damage and increases damage for all clases. As we give up damage, a tank expects to last a fair bit longer. Fight a Gunslinger who uses physical attacks and youll see your shield absorbing a lot of attacks. Fight a sage/sorc and youll see your shield absorbing nothing. I understand that much about expertise, but I'm questioning enemy players with less expertise yet high survivability. Like I said in my first post. I've inspected many of my opponents. They have 100 to 150 less expertise and are using a couple rataka items. With less expertise and using PvE items in PvP,shouldn't ther performance be lacking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrocanis Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I understand that much about expertise, but I'm questioning enemy players with less expertise yet high survivability. Like I said in my first post. I've inspected many of my opponents. They have 100 to 150 less expertise and are using a couple rataka items. With less expertise and using PvE items in PvP,shouldn't ther performance be lacking? That will vary by class, spec and chosen role. There isn't a one-size-fits-all, everybody-has-the-same-performance gear set in any MMO that I can think of. There is a lot of thinking currently that having some PVE gear (for increased power / damage / healing) is a benefit, and I can see that to a degree. There are others, like myself, that want to spend less time healing themselves (in my case, for example) than healing my team, so I primarily stack expertise to live longer while giving up a bit of power for healing my teammates - I figure if I land a BIG heal and die immediately it's of less use than landing a few smaller ones while being whittled down. All a matter of preference and playstyle. I compensate for not spending most of my healing on myself through better survivability and I confess I'm an obstacle humper =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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