"War Hero" Tier in 1.2

[MPagano]

Ah - DaOC. In DaOC (Thane realm rank 10 pre ToA) why did you pvp?

 

To gain realm ranks (reason to continue to play), weekly stats on portal, fun, and.....ABILITIES! I think you sort of just shot yourself in the foot there because this supports what I've been saying. The only difference in Swtor is that we don't have abilities, a portal, or any other reason to engage in any form of PvP. We only had valor ranks tied to gear.

 

Now that that is gone there is no reason to pvp. I'll take a cookie

 

By the way - Igraine server here - I recall pvp'ing naked many a days. Why? Because I could kill people of lower realm ranks because of said abilities. I was also able to do it on my spiritmaster again because of abilities.

 

Regardless of our stance the issue is progression and a reason to play. If that isn't there, for "EITHER" side, then there is no longer a reason to play. I think we would both agree there.

 

Precisely. You don't need artificial things like gear and stat gaps. You can create innovative and tactical forms of progression like realm ranks.

 

And you played DAoC at least as much as me and you don't mention the biggest reason any of us pvp'd in the frontiers- glory. That's pvp.

[Dego_Locc]

I'm not sure what you mean by equal. I think that PvP and PvE are totally different. I also think that PvP should have no prerequisite to compete other than being at the same level as everyone else.

 

I have addressed the fact that you need to prepare before you enter. What you're ignoring is why you can't take a fresh 50 into a raid or a HM. I've already explained this in a previous post. The concept of gear progression and stat increases is a necessary condition for PvE. That's not the case in PvP.

 

In PvE, you are challenged by NPC enemies. You are required to be able to withstand their metrics (i.e. take a hit, do enough dps to zero out their health, etc.) but you must also learn their mechanics, devise a strategy, and execute said strategy. Once these steps are completed, you have no additional challenge in this NPC fight. In order to create a new challenge, a new NPC must be developed. This NPC will, presumably, be more challenging in the same way that the first one was challenging- mechanics and metrics. Now it hits harder, takes more damage before dying, etc. The only way to allow players to compete against this NPC is to similarly scale up their metrics.

 

In PvP, you are challenged by players. You arerequired to have a knowledge of each class, be able to analyze how class abilities can create synergies with other classes, know how to work with allies, and counter enemies. This is it. The challenge stems from the fact that players are players, not NPCs. You might be the best player in the game, but someone might get lucky or might get the best of you and take you down. That feeling of "I can figure this out, and I can beat this guy"- THAT'S pvp. Gear progressions create artificial handicaps that only serve to impede the actual pvp. It's just a buffer that you have to cross in order to start PvPing.

 

In PvE, that buffer needs to be artificial. The challenges are, in a way, artificial. In PvP, the buffer is the learning curve. People just hate the idea that a fresh 50 may have keener insights into their and others' classes and be more successful in a shorter amount of time. People who want gear progression in PvP have this notion that PvE is a fixed time sink so PvP should be the same. They shouldn't because they're entirely different experiences.

The type of PVP you are looking for in MMO's is only in like 3 MMO's I can think of off hand, you mentioned DAoC a few times, In DAoC ppl fought for Realm Rank, and guess what, also boosted stats. A RR8 would smash all over a RR2. Most MMO's pvp is not equal as far as gear/stats goes.

 

I have said it before, street fighter is better suited to your need of what PVP should be. Equal.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Dego_Locc

[Dego_Locc]

Precisely. You don't need artificial things like gear and stat gaps. You can create innovative and tactical forms of progression like realm ranks.

 

And you played DAoC at least as much as me and you don't mention the biggest reason any of us pvp'd in the frontiers- glory. That's pvp.

 

When did you play DARK AGES? Because there were stat differences and granted abilities between lower RR's and higher RR's when I played, RR10's were god.

 

So you don't want unfair advantages for time put in on this game, but you were ok with in DAoC.

 

Interesting.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Dego_Locc

[MPagano]

I LOVE how anyone who plays more than this guy is a hardcore crappy player, and everyone who plays just as much as him, is a 'good player'.

 

That's awesome, poll everyone? You're a turd, really.

 

You pay to have access to the game, and have the ABILITY to access all of the content. If you do not access that content due to your own choice, or life choices, that should not mess up everyone elses experience since you just don't have the time.

 

Since you're so time constrained, go play angry birds and leave the MMOs for people who want DEPTH and CHALLENGE.

 

The PVE gear gap is an artificial gap to have the casual PVE players behind the more advanced PVE players. Don't see you crying about that, maybe because you're only getting beaten by OTHER PLAYERS. Which is probably because you SUCK AT PVP.

 

I'd love to fight you in even gear, and when I face roll you, you'll call for a nerf of my class because it's never you, it's always these secondary issues. FFS.

 

Please feel free to review my posting history. I don't call for nerfs, I refer to myself as an average player in comparison to others. You're incredibly aggressive and all I've done is tried to maintain a debate focused on the discourse of pvp progression. You responded to my post with venom that clearly demonstrates an underlying resentment towards something about my posts.

 

Aaaanyways, I haven't said I am time-constrained. I said that not everyone can play as much as hardcore players. In fact, hard core players have become the minority in MMOs. From a business point of view, it's only logical to focus on the needs of the many. If you want depth and challenge, why would you advocate the current incarnation of valor ranks and pvp gear? They circumvent both.

 

I'm not crying about PvE. Gear progression is needed for PvE. Did I say I sucked or I was good at PvP? Again, I'm wondering if you meant to quote my post or if this was directed to someone else?

 

If you're on crucible pits, we can certainly get some duels in. I can use some 1v1 practice. I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. If you beat me, I'll just want to keep playing you. But I'm a pvp'er, learning through trial and error is my progression.

[MPagano]

The type of PVP you are looking for in MMO's is only in like 3 MMO's I can think of off hand, you mentioned DAoC a few times, In DAoC ppl fought for Realm Rank, and guess what, also boosted stats. A RR8 would smash all over a RR2. Most MMO's pvp is not equal as far as gear/stats goes.

 

I have said it before, street fighter is better suited to your need of what PVP should be. Equal.

 

DAoC was pretty much all I wanted (pre-TOA). Im' not sure why people keep referring to FPS and fighter games. Don't you realize the difference between those genres and an MMO RPG? All I'm doing is advocating things that have already been done. You guys are acting like I'm insane. Maybe I just imagined DAoC?

[Bamajawn]

I think that the ranked tier would be cool if it ignored gear for the most part. Since there are two separate camps on this issue, why not have a track for each one? The non-gear track gives titles and gear without stats. The unranked tier is run-what-you-brung, balls to the wall open class. No one is prevented from fighting in either track. Edited March 14, 2012 by Bamajawn

[MPagano]

When did you play DARK AGES? Because there were stat differences and granted abilities between lower RR's and higher RR's when I played, RR10's were god.

 

So you don't want unfair advantages for time put in on this game, but you were ok with in DAoC.

 

Interesting.

 

I'm saying that I don't see the need for an artificial handicap like gear. Give me realm ranks, give me abilities. You really don't see the differences between TORs gear acquisition and DAoCs realm ranks? I played up to TOA, where I think most of us jumped ship (excuse the pun). Haha

[Incendergel]

I'm not sure what you mean by equal. I think that PvP and PvE are totally different. I also think that PvP should have no prerequisite to compete other than being at the same level as everyone else.

 

They are different. But you say one can be prepared for whereas the other shouldn't. Because one is scripted, the other isn't.

 

In PvP, you are challenged by players. You arerequired to have a knowledge of each class, be able to analyze how class abilities can create synergies with other classes, know how to work with allies, and counter enemies. This is it. The challenge stems from the fact that players are players, not NPCs. You might be the best player in the game, but someone might get lucky or might get the best of you and take you down. That feeling of "I can figure this out, and I can beat this guy"- THAT'S pvp. Gear progressions create artificial handicaps that only serve to impede the actual pvp. It's just a buffer that you have to cross in order to start PvPing.

 

People play for different reasons. People are better. No argument there - just look at people who key bind vs. those that don't and click. Night and day better even in PvE content and raids.

 

The point you are not seeing, or maybe do but ignore (which is fine), is that both sides need something in order to login the next day. In PvE they go to next weeks raid because they want the kill, or the change to win the next roll on the shiny object. In PvP it isn't any different. They want that next rank which could be tied to a ability (not in this game), or item. They want to be different.

 

Maybe you are looking at it the wrong way because you think that ability or item is going to make one stronger. It doesn't as you stated above. Some people are just better. So if you remove any of these incentive - whatever they are - then why would you play the game?

 

How long do you think anyone would play the same 3 warzones over, and over, and over again?

 

Now let me ask you. If you had only 3 instances to raid how long do you think anyone would raid those over and over again? With nothing different than the color of the armor?

 

Fine - you want to do away with the gear. Great - sign me up. Now I'm going to ask you what incentive do I have to login tomorrow? No portal with weekly stats (bragging rights). Ilum is broke, can do everything in warzones. Same three warzone maps - getting boring. Valor grind? No - no stat change only appearance. Abilities? No, nothing there. Credits? Already have close to 3 million - nothing to spend it on now.

 

Alts? I guess - but not really interested.

 

PvE? As you stated above, and I already know, I'd have to gear up, do the basics to learn fights, then find a guild to do it in. No thanks. Besides, I don't PvE - "I" prefer to PvP.

[Dego_Locc]

You guys are acting like I'm insane. Maybe I just imagined DAoC?

 

DAoC awarded those who PVP'd with additional stats and abilites which gave an "unfair" advantage. But you are ok with that. But you don't want gear progression in this game when it is the same thing as DAoC, except instead of gear giving the bonus, it was your REALM RANK LEVEL.

 

So if SWTOR was set up like DAoC, then who ever had the highest valor rank would have the best stats. Because that's how it worked when I played DAoC.

[Ahhmyface]

DAoC was pretty much all I wanted (pre-TOA). Im' not sure why people keep referring to FPS and fighter games. Don't you realize the difference between those genres and an MMO RPG? All I'm doing is advocating things that have already been done. You guys are acting like I'm insane. Maybe I just imagined DAoC?

 

Even pre toa you had to get your gear from pve. Is that what you want? At least you can get gear from pvp in tor. A lot of people like the system, which is why you encounter so much resistance in every thread (yes, i noticed you post on this every single day).

 

I loved daoc, because i played it for 7 years and kept getting stronger. Maybe thats not why you played it, but thats why I played it. So stop telling me "daoc did it diffferent".

Edited March 14, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[MPagano]

I wish I ca really ignore so I cant be able to read all these bull***** ur writing arround here.

 

Dude go play tetris , because MMO naturally need progression. And yeah I play MMOs for 14 years and dude im sorry if u play so long MMO games and still doesnt know whats natural in MMO games then u should get some more brain

 

No, dude, I'm sorry. Based on your post, you're at least 14 years old and 2 years behind on grammar.

 

As you put it, I "play so long MMO games and still doesnt know whats natural in MMO games then should get some more brain".

[Dego_Locc]

No, dude, I'm sorry. Based on your post, you're at least 14 years old and 2 years behind on grammar.

 

As you put it, I "play so long MMO games and still doesnt know whats natural in MMO games then should get some more brain".

As bad as his grammar is, he has a point, you should except endgame character progression making PVP unfair in MMO's(that's kinda the norm for them overall), you mention DAoC, and guess what?! Dark ages awarded time put in with more powerful characters than those who didn't put in the time.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Dego_Locc

[MPagano]

They are different. But you say one can be prepared for whereas the other shouldn't. Because one is scripted, the other isn't.

 

 

 

People play for different reasons. People are better. No argument there - just look at people who key bind vs. those that don't and click. Night and day better even in PvE content and raids.

 

The point you are not seeing, or maybe do but ignore (which is fine), is that both sides need something in order to login the next day. In PvE they go to next weeks raid because they want the kill, or the change to win the next roll on the shiny object. In PvP it isn't any different. They want that next rank which could be tied to a ability (not in this game), or item. They want to be different.

 

Maybe you are looking at it the wrong way because you think that ability or item is going to make one stronger. It doesn't as you stated above. Some people are just better. So if you remove any of these incentive - whatever they are - then why would you play the game?

 

How long do you think anyone would play the same 3 warzones over, and over, and over again?

 

Now let me ask you. If you had only 3 instances to raid how long do you think anyone would raid those over and over again? With nothing different than the color of the armor?

 

Fine - you want to do away with the gear. Great - sign me up. Now I'm going to ask you what incentive do I have to login tomorrow? No portal with weekly stats (bragging rights). Ilum is broke, can do everything in warzones. Same three warzone maps - getting boring. Valor grind? No - no stat change only appearance. Abilities? No, nothing there. Credits? Already have close to 3 million - nothing to spend it on now.

 

Alts? I guess - but not really interested.

 

PvE? As you stated above, and I already know, I'd have to gear up, do the basics to learn fights, then find a guild to do it in. No thanks. Besides, I don't PvE - "I" prefer to PvP.

 

All valid points. I apologize if I've been unclear. I don't expect there to be no progression. In DAoC, you could be RR10 but if you're terrible or don't understand your class, you could really mess up how you developed your character's progression through those realm ranks.

 

With gear, one set just being better than the next, and set bonuses making the choice for you as to which class equips what, I have no incentive to care, either. The gear just makes you take less damage, deal more damage, you have more health, etc. It's just a mindless, linear improvement over anyone else. Regardless of your points here, people are leaving pvp because it's BORING.

 

Obviously, the things you mention about only 3 warzones and no stat portal are closely related to the points on progression. I am describing a comprehensive retooling of the current system. They've already taken steps with ranked WZs and the war hero gear. I'm just expressing my view for them to consider when the make their next design choice with respect to pvp. I think that's all you and I can debate on this topic.

[MPagano]

As bad as his grammar is, he has a point, you should except endgame character progression making PVP unfair in MMO's(that's kinda the norm for them overall), you mention DAoC, and guess what?! Dark ages awarded time put in with more powerful characters than those who didn't put in the time.

 

But it wasn't as dumbed down as stat inflation. There were pvp abilities and things to choose. The player had to have a sense of what he wanted his character to do and how effectively he could accomplish that vision through the progression. It wasn't "what's your rank? Ok put this on!" "What's your rank? Oh you spent 100 hours, so you put this on!"

 

And let's be honest, there was no piont. You can't make a point without verbs.

Edited March 14, 2012 by MPagano

[Incendergel]

Well, this is fun.

 

So now that we are past that what now? I'm not seeing much movement from BioWare on the subject. 6 people I know in RL canceled which is a bummer. Each sited the PvP issues around Ilum and Valor rank. Not gear so much but the grind they did to earn ranks vs. this weeks patch and now everyone is instantly (stretch I know) a BM.

 

I am in the camp of wanting a form of open world pvp with a cause. I am struggling with the same faction warzones just as much as I'm struggling with the number of. I honestly don't think it would hold my interest.

 

PvE isn't a option. They are fun but require dedication. Not asking for the gear so easy! Just saying I PvP because I can pick up and stop whereas PvE / Raid I need to do some homework, then raid, then more homework to prepare for next week

 

That is why I liked DaOC. Solo I could play at my own pace. I could group up. I could camp main gates, etc. My pace in which I could login, play an hour or two, then bail. In the whole process get zerg rolled, group up and 8 v 8, zerg back, or just solo and have some fun. I actually did that in Ilum.

[fantomjchx]

No, dude, I'm sorry. Based on your post, you're at least 14 years old and 2 years behind on grammar.

 

As you put it, I "play so long MMO games and still doesnt know whats natural in MMO games then should get some more brain".

 

My post is very logical and I would post much more text in it if Im English natural speaker,as the most people here can see that im not then u think it fair to touch my grammar? For u iit is,because based on all of ur posts u are not aboue 80 IQ I can bet in that,and seriousyl people should ignore u beacause all of ur posts are "bla bla bla bla " nothing logical and no facts,people are here arguing with u with real arguements and facts and every of ur answere is just "bla bla bla" And the guy before me told u very good u pay to access for game,if u cant spent enough time its not our problem its urs.

[MPagano]

I'm going to see how the ranking thing works out. It could potentially revive my interest by creating a more competitive landscape. I really think that they'll need some type of open pvp, though, like you said. I plan on checking out GW2 to see if that will be as fun as it looks, but i'm not holding my breath.

[Incendergel]

But it wasn't as dumbed down as stat inflation. There were pvp abilities and things to choose. The player had to have a sense of what he wanted his character to do and how effectively he could accomplish that vision through the progression. It wasn't "what's your rank? Ok put this on!" "What's your rank? Oh you spent 100 hours, so you put this on!"

 

And let's be honest, there was no piont. You can't make a point without verbs.

 

Yes, on ranks you actually had to choose. You didn't get all. And if you messed up you had to farm some respec stones. All good and fun.

 

Since we are being honest. The game we are talking about also had a reason to PvP whereas this one doesn't. Darkness Falls? Yeah, I went there Point being is that we did have a reason to fight.

 

Access to darkness falls (faster exp, more gold, PvE boss down below)

Buff for relics held

Realm ranks (abilities)

Weekly portal stats (ranks, kills, guilds, alliances, etc)

 

If you look at what we have (granted, to be fair the game has only been out a few months) well, we don't have much. So.....I don't know.

[MPagano]

My post is very logical and I would post much more text in it if Im English natural speaker,as the most people here can see that im not then u think it fair to touch my grammar? For u iit is,because based on all of ur posts u are not aboue 80 IQ I can bet in that,and seriousyl people should ignore u beacause all of ur posts are "bla bla bla bla " nothing logical and no facts,people are here arguing with u with real arguements and facts and every of ur answere is just "bla bla bla" And the guy before me told u very good u pay to access for game,if u cant spent enough time its not our problem its urs.

 

I apologize for being presumptuous. Of course, a second language would not be nearly as proficient as your first. Nevertheless, you didn't make any points regarding what I said. You simply said that there needs to be this mechanic because that's how it is supposed to be.

 

Maybe you could point to some of my posts where I was speaking illogically? I tried to take care to put forth my assertions and supporting ideas in a way that was easy to read.

[MPagano]

Yes, on ranks you actually had to choose. You didn't get all. And if you messed up you had to farm some respec stones. All good and fun.

 

Since we are being honest. The game we are talking about also had a reason to PvP whereas this one doesn't. Darkness Falls? Yeah, I went there Point being is that we did have a reason to fight.

 

Access to darkness falls (faster exp, more gold, PvE boss down below)

Buff for relics held

Realm ranks (abilities)

Weekly portal stats (ranks, kills, guilds, alliances, etc)

 

If you look at what we have (granted, to be fair the game has only been out a few months) well, we don't have much. So.....I don't know.

 

I would literally cut off a finger for a game with darkness falls in it. Do you remember seeing that server message that hibernia now has control and you and your guild are deciding if they should just go deeper at this point or try and rush out before it's overrun? So awesome.

 

It's also a good point, this game needs more than warzones otherwise it will remain the pvp arcade game it is now.

[Ayestes]

I honestly see no issue if everyone was literally given the same gear for PvP - as long they could customize that gear the way they wanted to in terms of looks and attributes. The idea that the strong get stronger in an MMO is rather odd, because personally I don't feel the need to have better gear then my opponents if I'm already better at the game. I will still do well regardless.

[MPagano]

I honestly see no issue if everyone was literally given the same gear for PvP - as long they could customize that gear the way they wanted to in terms of looks and attributes. The idea that the strong get stronger in an MMO is rather odd, because personally I don't feel the need to have better gear then my opponents if I'm already better at the game. I will still do well regardless.

 

I agree with you, but many people are voicing the opinion that some sort of progression is required to stay engaged even if it's something as one-dimensional as gear tiers.

[thorizdin]

Rankings (ELO == good) and tournaments are a far better method of "progression" than gear tiers.

 

I agree with you, but many people are voicing the opinion that some sort of progression is required to stay engaged even if it's something as one-dimensional as gear tiers.

[MPagano]

Yeah that's one reason I'm going to resub after 1.2 and see how that is laid out by BW. I think a lot of people will at least stick around to see how the first season goes.

[qqsix]

tldr, feel exactly like the person above me

 

I come to read the forums once in a while, and all i see is crying... and i really dont understand this. You wanna be rewarded for your time in game, and you want to feel exclusive, you are basically getting it... the looks of gear is your reward...

Why would you wanna distance yourself from "normal" people and have no competition whatsoever (gear stat wise, where your skill wont be noticed) is what i dont understand... Is it that you feel want to be special, just because you spend more time in game, you should have better stats gear and still play with casuals? I think that would be alright, but have your own bracket for pvp for it, which is basically what you are getting anyway, ranked? If you are skilled, enjoy the game, play with casuals and beat them with your own skill.

 

Was thinking about gladiators a sec ago, imagine if the champ had a machine gun, and the challengers all had swords... how would that turn out... just feels kinda the same here. Stop the crying, let them try to balance the game, give you something new... See if you enjoy it, dont cry about something you have not yet experienced.

Edited March 14, 2012 by qqsix