PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[chrisftw]

gotta love in WOW as soon as "NUMBERS" are posted after the first boss encounter in a heroic anybody under 9k dps is dumped instantly and without hesitation.

 

normally before that that person is severely insulted, cussed out and generally belittled. this happens in about 90% of the runs i do as a Pally Tank.

 

not sure what the OP's aim is but if that's what he wants. WOW is just around the corner.

Edited March 14, 2012 by chrisftw

[Andryah]

Yet, still here you are, saying that a minority of us might grief you and thus they shouldn't be allowed in the game.

 

Just as a polite point of clarity, Fiddyy you have in fact been griefing people you disagree with in this thread for days now. I respect your views about combat logs, meters, etc, even though I do not agree with them. But the way you go about it does raise genuine concerns.

 

Please understand that the way we see you behave in this discussion is a direct reflection on how some of us think you and like minded folk will behave in game. You reinforce the concerns we have with your communication methods here and your dismissive and harsh tone toward people you do not agree with.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Andryah

[GalacticKegger]

So let me understand what the OP say... just to be sure

 

quote : The main reason I want combat logs is because I am pro-encounters with more mechanics that require on-the-fly analyzing as opposed to encounters with less mechanics with trial and error being the method of progression.

 

So he wants more complex and hard fights...

and mods to make those fights simpler and easier....

 

Threat meters, and all the assorted crap load of mods suck, and are not needed.

They turn a game into a race to find the next best mod model, to make the fight easier than intended.

I vote NO !

So more complex and hard fights (1 step forward) followed up with mods to make those fights simpler and easier (1 step back) puts him right back where he started without mods. A wheel spinning exercise ... nice observation! Edited March 14, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Fiddyy]

Horrible example. By all accounts Lebron is supposed to be a pretty decent guy with his own teammates.

Professional Sports however are filled with examples of very talented players who have been traded or had their careers cut short because they were "disruptive influences" in the clubhouse/locker room. Reeves Nelson of UCLA might very well have ruined his chances at an NBA career because of it this year.

 

-You can better yourself with Personal Meters.

 

-You can find other like-minded individuals to share logs with if competition/constant analysis is important to you.

 

There is no need for Real Time Group Meters or Group Combat Logs in the game.

 

Yes/ Those teammates, are the equivalent of a guild. Which completely reinforces my post. Thanks!

Edited March 14, 2012 by Fiddyy

[GalacticKegger]

I really hate this argument. Fear is no excuse to hinder the game we play. No reason, no excuse. Please stop presenting this argument. It has no relevance.

Please stop the hate and condescendence ... it has no place in our community. Edited March 14, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[MPagano]

Please stop the hate and condescendence ... it has no place in our community.

 

You must be lost. You're on the TOR forums.

[chrisftw]

You must be lost. You're on the TOR forums.

 

lol, so true.

[GalacticKegger]

You must be lost. You're on the TOR forums.

Not lost at all. In fact I love this community, regardless of a narcissistic few who annoint themselves judge and jury over whatever it is that makes them nervous. Edited March 14, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Retzilla]

He didn't mention fear...

 

he didn't have to, i read his post in a yellow text rather than a green one.

[Fiddyy]

There have been actual posters in this thread that say they wish to judge and exclude "bads" based on combat logs. A large percentage of those posting on the topic as well as leading developers of the game hold this concern about how such tools have been used in the past in other games. It's not an irrelevant fear it's a very good likelihood.

 

The "fear" your refer to is supported by human nature, MMO history and the very tone and sentiment of many posting on your side of the topic. Hardcore players misusing combat data to abuse and put-off other players may be an inconvenient truth for you but, at the very least, it does drive player retention and the overall cultural dynamics of the game.

 

Just as you want to the data to judge others' performance, a majority wants such data kept out of the focus of their play experience or from being used against them as they have seen or even feared. The game can be played without exact metrics and you can improve your game better with the tools that are being added. The game will function with combat logs, without combat logs or with BioWare's compromise. No need enters into the equation, just preference and your position is on the wrong side of the numbers.

 

 

Wrong, I don't pug anything, I raid with my guild, my friends. I don't plan on ever pugging anything. So, please tell me how I'm going to judge and misuse the information. I want it for my guild raids, GUILD RAIDS. To help and further improve the game. Quit being so vain.

[DarthKhaos]

We'eve stated that our reasoning for wanting in game real logging is to better ourselves and the game. Yet, still here you are, saying that a minority of us might grief you and thus they shouldn't be allowed in the game. I guess the NBA shouldn't let Lebron play because he's good and is mean to the other players.

I do not get your gripe. You are getting a combat log so that you can better yourself in the game.

 

Private combat logs do that.

[Englefield]

We'eve stated that our reasoning for wanting in game real logging is to better ourselves and the game. Yet, still here you are, saying that a minority of us might grief you and thus they shouldn't be allowed in the game. I guess the NBA shouldn't let Lebron play because he's good and is mean to the other players.

 

If you think this thread is somehow evidence that there won't be any griefing on the part of the pro log brigade, I think you've been somewhat economical with your reading, or can't read at all. Just look at the guy directly above the post you quoted, how do you think he's going to behave?

 

Besides, if you actually read the post, I was merely pointing out what the majority might think and why they seem to be voting the way they are.

 

And please, anaolgies to professional sports and sportsmen? Is that really how you see yourseves? Don't make me laugh. It's got nothing to do with being good, it's about being a jerk.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Englefield

[TheRainstater]

IMO we don't need DPS meters or Threat meters.

 

I have played MMO's since Ultima. One of the things I love about MMO's is theory crafting. Adding things like DPS meters kills theory crafting because there is no unknown any more. It takes the fun out of learning how to play your class and creating your personal play style. Instead suddenly there is the "1" way to play a class. Sure to some the fun is maximizing but back in the day we figured it out by theory crafting and actual play time experience. The better players were the one who put in the effort to be better.

 

Now days all the younger players want everything handed to them including skill. Instead of learning how to maximize there class via playing it they want add ons to tell them how to play it.

Edited March 14, 2012 by TheRainstater

[DaxRendar]

Wrong, I don't pug anything, I raid with my guild, my friends. I don't plan on ever pugging anything. So, please tell me how I'm going to judge and misuse the information. I want it for my guild raids, GUILD RAIDS. To help and further improve the game. Quit being so vain.

 

He's not being vain. He also said there have been many examples by posters (possibly not including you). So he is also not wrong.

 

If you are playing with your friends and they all like to play the same way you do, I fully expect you guys to be able to share your combat logs for group parsing.

 

They are giving you what you claim to want...

 

So what is your problem?

[Matte_Black]

he didn't have to, i read his post in a yellow text rather than a green one.

 

Put flatly, I have nothing to fear as far as being judged. Due to how I play and whom I play with, such judgement would be of little consequence to me. It's just not going to come up for me but, I know it will be an issue for many if combat logs become easily accessible, realtime public information. Many of them people who I look out for.

 

My greater concern is how much attention is focused from the intended game play experience of story, action and adventure over too numbers and extraneous levels of optimization. Also, how much that sort of minset gets pushed to the forefront throughout the community is something I would like to be avoided. I am very happy with how the game works now and public logs and their associated impacts are unwanted changeds to this game I enjoy.

[DarthKhaos]

Yes/ Those teammates, are the equivalent of a guild. Which completely reinforces my post. Thanks!

I more see the NBA as the guild and the people in the match as the party for the flashpoint, operation or warzone. So him being a decent guy with his teammates means he's a decent guy with the members of the party. He might have some issues with other people in the NBA (or guild) but can still be a part of it just as many do in a guild.

 

Why are we talking about the NBA now?

[Andryah]

Wrong, I don't pug anything, I raid with my guild, my friends. I don't plan on ever pugging anything. So, please tell me how I'm going to judge and misuse the information. I want it for my guild raids, GUILD RAIDS. To help and further improve the game.

 

Multiple devs, regardless of their apparent contradictions on some points, have all said that enterprising guilds will be able to use the logfile + parse features to analyze and improve their encounter performance.

 

So, if what you say above is true, then your guilds needs are taken care of as far as Bioware is concerned. So at this point you seem to be flogging a dead horse here.

 

Quit being so vain.

 

Can you please, please, please stop tossing in inflamatory jabs at other forum members????? Is that possible by any chance at all???????

[Matte_Black]

Wrong, I don't pug anything, I raid with my guild, my friends. I don't plan on ever pugging anything. So, please tell me how I'm going to judge and misuse the information. I want it for my guild raids, GUILD RAIDS. To help and further improve the game. Quit being so vain.

 

I am glad to see you wont be abusing other players unconsented. The new tools should allow you and your guild to complete your evaluations and gather the information you want. The few exceptions being that you'll have to uplaod and process it through the inevitable 3rd party tool and feedback won't be intantaneous.

 

That doesn't mean others won't. In fact, I guarantee there would be those who would if the type of log you wanted was available. It also pushes the numbers game off-stage where it is intended. The effort and delay of BioWare's compromise helps reduce the abuse othe rplayers and shifting focus of play. Good Work, BioWare.

[Wrrath]

There have been actual posters in this thread that say they wish to judge and exclude "bads" based on combat logs. A large percentage of those posting on the topic as well as leading developers of the game hold this concern about how such tools have been used in the past in other games. It's not an irrelevant fear it's a very good likelihood.

 

It is never an irrelevant concern, in fact in some of my previous posts I have stated I agree that it is likely to happen but the point he and many others are trying to get across is one you seem oblivious to. Because of the minority, who you are given tools and choices online to avoid, you want to exclude something from the game that is considered to be a help. You can cry majority and claim it all you want but when Bioware states they have 1.7 million subs and I don't even think we have seen 200+ posters in this entire thread neither side can go around waving the "I am in the majority stick".

 

The "fear" your refer to is supported by human nature, MMO history and the very tone and sentiment of many posting on your side of the topic. Hardcore players misusing combat data to abuse and put-off other players may be an inconvenient truth for you but, at the very least, it does drive player retention and the overall cultural dynamics of the game.

 

I hate to bring WoW into the discussion because overall I hate that game but in the end they did a lot of things right. They tried their best for a long time to cater to both the casuals and the hardcore gamers with great success as evident by over 10 million subs. WoW has had combat logs for a long time and yes they get abused and misused from time to time, but that doesn't seem to have stopped casuals from playing the game. If you let fear of the misuse of a tool make your decision for you then I am sorry. That fear however should then not be used as a solid reason as to why the good and honest players who would use the tool correctly not be able to use it.

 

Just as you want to the data to judge others' performance, a majority wants such data kept out of the focus of their play experience or from being used against them as they have seen or even feared. The game can be played without exact metrics and you can improve your game better with the tools that are being added. The game will function with combat logs, without combat logs or with BioWare's compromise. No need enters into the equation, just preference and your position is on the wrong side of the numbers.

 

As I stated earlier taking a poll in which 400 people have voted and/or reading one topic on the matter does in no way give you the ability to claim majority. You may have the majority here but with not even .01 percent of the reported community responding going off the handle to claim majority seems stupid. And please don't come back with the tired argument that if the poll was the other way around I would be using it. I wouldn't, take it for what it is, a poll to gauge a small representation of the player base.

 

Edit: And please don't say we are getting combat logs so shut up. I understand we are getting a piece of combat logs I just would like them to be in game rather then have to minimize every time I want to get some useful information.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Wrrath

[Fiddyy]

Multiple devs, regardless of their apparent contradictions on some points, have all said that enterprising guilds will be able to use the logfile + parse features to analyze and improve their encounter performance.

 

So, if what you say above is true, then your guilds needs are taken care of as far as Bioware is concerned. So at this point you seem to be flogging a dead horse here.

 

 

 

Can you please, please, please stop tossing in inflamatory jabs at other forum members????? Is that possible by any chance at all???????

 

It's not an inflammatory jab, it was merely stating that his reasoning for being against logs is vain. Saying something about what someone says is not commenting on them as a person. Although at this point, I might be willing to change that.

[Andryah]

 

It also pushes the numbers game off-stage where it is intended.

 

Indeed.

 

~95% of theorycrafting is done off-line from game play anyway, so if anything the Bioware approach gives the theory crafters a more structured method to theorycraft.

 

For example: theorcrafting fan sites could set up a log/parse database for their users to easily review and compare actual log data as a matter of standard process for SWTOR.

 

For example: guilds can benefit by this by creating a systematic process for post encounter review and theorycrafting. They can make log summision a condition for rostering in the next run, they can put any guild specific requirements they want on members performance as shown in the logs. They don't have to take anyone's word for it, and they don't have to worry about if they captured data correctly in game as it is done for them.

 

For theorycrafting, the Bioware approach actually systemizes the process of log file capture for use. The only thing needed is a few people in the community to create the needed web interfaces/parsers to do what the guilds/theorycrafters want to do with the log data. But there has never been a shortage of bright people willing and able to do this.

[Drewser]

I more see the NBA as the guild and the people in the match as the party for the flashpoint, operation or warzone. So him being a decent guy with his teammates means he's a decent guy with the members of the party. He might have some issues with other people in the NBA (or guild) but can still be a part of it just as many do in a guild.

 

Why are we talking about the NBA now?

 

There is really no relevance with the NBA comparison since they are paid to play while on the other hand we are paying to play.

[Fiddyy]

It is never an irrelevant concern, in fact in some of my previous posts I have stated I agree that it is likely to happen but the point he and many others are trying to get across is one you seem oblivious to. Because of the minority, who you are given tools and choices online to avoid, you want to exclude something from the game that is considered to be a help. You can cry majority and claim it all you want but when Bioware states they have 1.7 million subs and I don't even think we have seen 200+ posters in this entire thread neither side can go around waving the "I am in the majority stick".

 

 

 

I hate to bring WoW into the discussion because overall I hate that game but in the end they did a lot of things right. They tried their best for a long time to cater to both the casuals and the hardcore gamers with great success as evident by over 10 million subs. WoW has had combat logs for a long time and yes they get abused and misused from time to time, but that doesn't seem to have stopped casuals from playing the game. If you let fear of the misuse of a tool make your decision for you then I am sorry. That fear however should then not be used as a solid reason as to why the good and honest players who would use the tool correctly not be able to use it.

 

 

 

As I stated earlier taking a poll in which 400 people have voted and/or reading one topic on the matter does in no way give you the ability to claim majority. You may have the majority here but with not even .01 percent of the reported community responding going off the handle to claim majority seems stupid. And please don't come back with the tired argument that if the poll was the other way around I would be using it. I wouldn't, take it for what it is, a poll to gauge a small representation of the player base.

 

Edit: And please don't say we are getting combat logs so shut up. I understand we are getting a piece of combat logs I just would like them to be in game rather then have to minimize every time I want to get some useful information.

 

But wrath, the COMMUNITY voted, and the answer was no combat logs. It doesn't matter that 400/2,000,000 people voted, it speaks for everyone!

Edited March 14, 2012 by Fiddyy

[MPagano]

This thread is definitely making leaps forward and definitely not becoming a tail chase of nerd egos trying to last word each other to death. Definitely.

[Matte_Black]

so the other thread posters standing against combat logs telling us that we're going to be elitist jerks and go out of our way to make fun of him for being bad isn't a negative form of communication? GOOD LOGIC

 

Firstly, please do not confuse the issue. The real debate here is not combat logs or not but, as you alluded in your OP, about combat logs that are PUBLIC and REALTIME. That's the thrshold along where the split and debate occur.

 

Maybe you and other posters won't be the actual abusers but, you are the ones stepping up to defend that right and ability of others to have the tools to support them doing so. Alot of the defense is done in overheated or dismissive tones that offer very little supporting evidence or even explanation as to why your minority preference should trump that of the majority.

 

Your fun can happen without opening up that pandora's box and taking away player privacy to their performance. You can optimize and theory craft to your heart's content with those who would like to with you. I don't think many have an issue with you reducing the effective challenges in such a manner.