PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Retzilla]

I didn't say this was a perfect poll based on sampling, just that you could accurately predict whole populations results on a very small sampling size.

 

alright in this political poll we're going to to see how americans view democrats and republicans and we're going to texas to get the data

[Andryah]

No, since we have no idea on how biased the sample is we can make no assumptions on what the margin of error really is.

 

Just to give you an extreme example, I'd bet you anything you want that if we were to poll the subject of stricter gun control laws next to a NRA rally we'd see results that are even more of a landslide win for one of the sides than the ones we have for this poll. It still wouldn't mean that the sample is unbiased and that the results reflect the will of the entire population.

 

Extreme examples aside, in this polls case, it's open to anyone who is aware of it and wants to vote. Both sides of this discussion appear equally motivated to vote. Both sides are equally likely to become aware it exists. Both sides of the discussion have been vocally present in this thread for several thousand posts now. The poll has stayed at least 2.5:1 since it launched. From any practical standoint, there is not enough bias to make the basic parameters and outcomes in this poll invalid, much less flip the majority into the other direction.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Andryah

[Andryah]

alright in this political poll we're going to to see how americans view democrats and republicans and we're going to texas to get the data

 

Completely nonsqeuitur to the OPs poll and the results.

[Andryah]

Its nothing at all like a political poll.

 

It's a binary poll. Choose A, or Choose B.

[Snakke]

It's a binary poll. Choose A, or Choose B.

 

You are trying to compare this binary poll to a political one is what I am saying.

[Wrrath]

Extreme examples aside, in this polls case, it's open to anyone who is aware of it and wants to vote. Both sides of this discussion appear equally motivated to vote. Both sides of the discussion have been vocally present in this thread for several thousand posts now. The poll has stayed at least 2.5:1 since it launched. From any practical standoint, there is not enough bias to make the basic parameters and outcomes in this poll invalid, much less flip the majority into the other direction.

 

Stating that the poll has stayed even means nothing. If I am taking a political poll for the entire nation and I go simply to a democratic portion of Chicago and it ends up heavily in favor of democrats that means nothing for the sample of the entire nation. What he is trying to say simply is in the math you are trying to push is you cannot make assumptions no matter how sound the assumptions are. Assumptions in math lead to incorrect answers. Well this topic has been open to both sides of the argument if this forum is filled with more people who dislike combat logs then like combat logs and then the people who don't post here are 100% behind combat logs then you would be wrong. Even though my assumption is far fetched, it in the end is just like your assumption. To have the poll mean something you would need a lot more information then you have about what the people on these forums believe in or have multiple samplings from different portions of the community.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Wrrath

[Vydor_HC]

a small pool of .0002 percent of the population will yield an accurate data pool for the whole population, there is something entirely wrong about that.

 

Yes, it is possible to get highly accurate info from polls with small sample size. I am not trying to validate the results of this poll. Of course there are factors that make the margin of error larger, which do effect this poll greatly, like bias and non random selection methods. But those factors do not entirely discredit the poll, it simply makes it less accurate.

[bliapis]

That is the whole topic in a nutshell, "it would be nice if they made it more convenient". The extra combat log functionality and convenience is not needed, "it would be nice". A majority of the players and the developers realize that making it easier to access realtime would increase behavior they have a problem with and would like to see avoided. No "need". Just preference v. preference and they picked their philosophy alongside the majority of their players with an opinion on it over the minority opinion of "it would be nice if they made it more convenient".

 

Mate damage was always shown on any RPG, from pen-and-table ones.

 

All we see now is damage done but its not recorded anywhere.

 

Its rather lame for a genre that is based on numbers and change and progression.

[Loendar]

This thread is definitely making leaps forward and definitely not becoming a tail chase of nerd egos trying to last word each other to death. Definitely.

 

Of course - this comment can be applied to roughly 95% of all forums postings.. on any MMO site. ;p

[Andryah]

What he is trying to say simply is in the math you are trying to push is you cannot make assumptions no matter how sound the assumptions are. Assumptions in math lead to incorrect answers.

 

The only assumption I am making is to assume there is bias toward the majority (even though there are no indications to justify this), therefore taking the margin of error and throwing it completely AGAINST the majority.

 

So I am giving the minority full benefit of the margin of error in their favor. Even after doing this, which is very likely overly biased against the majority, the majority is STILL +30 points in the poll. I'm being overly pessimistic to the majority (the side I voted for), and yet the majority is +30 points over the minority. All of this while applying standard polling practices.

 

Generally accepted polling practices are: if the difference in a binary poll is within the margin of error for the polling (in this case +/- 10%) then the poll cannot be called in favor of one side or the other. This IS NOT the case for this poll. The majority is much larger then the margin of error in the polling sample.

 

It's not even close in terms of polling practice and analysis.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Andryah

[Andryah]

You are trying to compare this binary poll to a political one is what I am saying.

 

Dude, most political polls ARE binary polls. Polling theory actually does not care what is being polled, only that there is fair chance for polling balance (ie: not loading a pro NRA poll up with NRA rally members).

[DaxRendar]

I have a question.

 

What is considered misuse or abuse when people use meters/logs or whatever. I'll post two different things someone could say when they use meters and I'd like to know what's considered abuse/misuse of meters/logs.

 

1.) "Looking for 1 more dps for x flash point, must do at least 1,000 dps - send tell if interested"

 

2.) "Your dps is really low, pick it up or we find someone else."

 

Out of those two statements, are both considered misuse or is it one of them? Answering this could help the pro meter crowd understand the thought behind the anti meter camp. Because just saying people will misuse the meters and that's we don't want them doesn't help all that much when trying to convince the other side why your reasoning is right.

 

It's impossible to judge based on the limited amount of information provided

 

In the case of #1 if said Flashpoint requires ~600 DPS to complete and you already have a DPS party member in Raid Gear it's an asinine but but still valid (hey it's their group) request. If the FP features a lot of encounters with heavily armored opponents then the number could be way to high for Force Users, dead on for GS, and too low for Scoundrels.

 

In the case of #2 it's the same thing - if everything in the run is being one-shot easily what does it really matter? If the group is failing due to Enrage Timers it might be valid - or it could turn out that person is a Commando who picked up Group Heals when the Sage got stunned and then stepped in Fire.

 

It's very easy to misread and incorrectly interpret the data provided by Meters, especially the in-game, realtime, highly summarized versions most people live by like Recount.

 

Unless you are repeatedly wiping, most times analysis isn't needed. If you are repeatedly wiping, it's often easier for a PUG to just fall apart and for a Guild Group to either call the run or take the time to parse their Logs.

[genesiser]

Sorry for the repost, but I think defining the argument of the anti meter camp would go a long ways to lowering the confusion and hostility from the pro meter crowd.

 

 

I have a question.

 

What is considered misuse or abuse when people use meters/logs or whatever. I'll post two different things someone could say when they use meters and I'd like to know what's considered abuse/misuse of meters/logs.

 

1.) "Looking for 1 more dps for x flash point, must do at least 1,000 dps - send tell if interested"

 

2.) "Your dps is really low, pick it up or we find someone else."

 

Out of those two statements, are both considered misuse or is it one of them? Answering this could help the pro meter crowd understand the thought behind the anti meter camp. Because just saying people will misuse the meters and that's we don't want them doesn't help all that much when trying to convince the other side why your reasoning is right.

[Wrrath]

The only assumption I am making is to assume there is bias toward the majority (even though there are no indications to justify this), therefore taking the margin of error and throwing it completely AGAINST the majority.

 

So I am giving the minority full benefit of the margin of error in their favor. Even after doing this, which is very likely overly biased against the majority, the majority is STILL +30 points in the poll. I'm being overly pessimistic to the majority (the side I voted for), and yet the majority is +30 points over the minority. All of this while applying standard polling practices.

 

Generally accepted polling practices are: if the difference in a binary poll is within the margin of error for the polling (in this case +/- 10%) then the poll cannot be called in favor of one side or the other. This IS NOT the case for this poll. The majority is much larger then the margin of error in the polling sample.

 

It's not even close in terms of polling practice and analysis.

 

The fact you are missing is you don't know the basics of your polling sample. Your argument is so flawed and you are missing so many points it isn't funny. I don't care what the basis of this poll is, I don't care if the difference is 100% to 0% all I am saying is to judge what this poll means for the entire community with no FACTUAL information other then your assumptions to back it up is faulty and misleading. I have tried to have a logical argument with you but if you want to read what you want to read and ignore other portions which make your argument completely invalid then by all means have fun arguing with yourself.

 

Edit: Just for the sake of argument as well if there is a +/- of 10 and the poll currently resides at 34% in favor and 66% against then it would go to at most 44% in favor and 56% against making it a difference of 12 points. Don't know where you got 30+ points.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Wrrath

[Ganelon]

Generally accepted polling practices are: if the difference in a binary poll is within the margin of error for the polling (in this case +/- 10%) and the sample is unbiased then the poll cannot be called in favor of one side or the other. This IS NOT the case for this poll. The majority is much larger then the margin of error in the polling sample.

 

I added the bolded part.

 

If the sample is known to be biased or, as for this poll, we have no idea if the sample is biased or not, the results of the poll are meaningless.

[Matte_Black]

alright in this political poll we're going to to see how americans view democrats and republicans and we're going to texas to get the data

 

Stating that the poll has stayed even means nothing. If I am taking a political poll for the entire nation and I go simply to a democratic portion of Chicago and it ends up heavily in favor of democrats that means nothing for the sample of the entire nation. What he is trying to say simply is in the math you are trying to push is you cannot make assumptions no matter how sound the assumptions are. Assumptions in math lead to incorrect answers. Well this topic has been open to both sides of the argument if this forum is filled with more people who dislike combat logs then like combat logs and then the people who don't post here are 100% behind combat logs then you would be wrong. Even though my assumption is far fetched, it in the end is just like your assumption. To have the poll mean something you would need a lot more information then you have about what the people on these forums believe in or have multiple samplings from different portions of the community.

 

Did you guys read the original OP that accompanied the poll? The poster was lobbying on the wisdom expanding the combat logs to be public and in-game realtime while presenting the poll. Argue bias if you like on this topic but, if anything, the poll was biased against it's current result. It's like the RNC held a poll in a church in a red state and a liberal democrat walked out with a landslide win. Bringing up bias on this poll only reinforces the majority result.

[Andryah]

The fact you are missing is you don't know the basics of your polling sample. Your argument is so flawed and you are missing so many points it isn't funny. I don't care what the basis of this poll is, I don't care if the difference is 100% to 0% all I am saying is to judge what this poll means for the entire community with no FACTUAL information other then your assumptions to back it up is faulty and misleading. I have tried to have a logical argument with you but if you want to read what you want to read and ignore other portions which make your argument completely invalid then by all means have fun arguing with yourself.

 

The only parameter you are arguing is that you can only poll by polling 100% of the player base.

 

In other words, you don't believe in polls or that they have any accuracy.

 

Even though an entire industry of established practices in polling everything and everything in this country proves you wrong.

[Wrrath]

The only parameter you are arguing is that you can only poll by polling 100% of the player base.

 

In other words, you don't believe in polls or that they have any accuracy.

 

Even though an entire industry of established practices in polling everything and everything in this country proves you wrong.

 

Except that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is you are basically saying we can take a presidential election and only take the results of Indiana as the results of the entire nation. You're argument is simply we can take this one small result and expand it to the huge result of what the entire community will say. I am not in any way saying there is a way to get the entire community to vote all I am saying is it is flawed to say this very small representation of the community can in any way speak for the entire community definitively as a whole.

[Andryah]

I added the bolded part.

 

If the sample is known to be biased or, as for this poll, we have no idea if the sample is biased or not, the results of the poll are meaningless.

 

Ah yes, another person who only believes a polling of every player = accurate polling.

 

The polling industry is mature, follows standard practices, and this is a random polling (ie: nobody was picked up and placed in front of the poll to stack the results. If they were, they would be stacked in favor of the OP, because that is what he wanted and expected.

 

There is absolutely nothing about the parameters of this poll, or the polling audience to indicate polling bias outside the margin of error.

[DaxRendar]

Sorry for the repost, but I think defining the argument of the anti meter camp would go a long ways to lowering the confusion and hostility from the pro meter crowd.

 

1) Read my post right before your repost

 

2) Either include more examples or phrase the questions as some of our stellar "pro-meters" people have stated them. For example:

 

"OMG YUR SUCK A BADDY BAD!!1! I CANT BELEIV YUR ONLY DOIN 12K DSP!" while said person is (a) standing in fire and (b) doing 13.5K DPS in a fight that actually only requires 10K DPS meaning the group is well over the DPS threshold

[Ganelon]

The only parameter you are arguing is that you can only poll by polling 100% of the player base.

 

In other words, you don't believe in polls or that they have any accuracy.

 

Even though an entire industry of established practices in polling everything and everything in this country proves you wrong.

 

No, that's not even remotely close to what we're arguing. What we're saying is that for the poll to be valid, for the margins of error to mean something, and for us to be able to draw any conclusions, we'd have to poll a random sample that is also representative of the distribution of the different play-styles in the population.

 

Your failure to understand that just shows that it is in fact you that knows nothing about polling techniques.

[Andryah]

Except that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is you are basically saying we can take a presidential election and only take the results of Indiana as the results of the entire nation. You're argument is simply we can take this one small result and expand it to the huge result of what the entire community will say. I am not in any way saying there is a way to get the entire community to vote all I am saying is it is flawed to say this very small representation of the community can in any way speak for the entire community definitively as a whole.

 

Dude, this poll is open to anyone that comes to this thread sees the polling address, and goes and votes in the poll. It does not make any distinction or restriction to the deomgraphic that votes. It's not restricted to anyone (unlike your contrivance of Indiana deciding the presidential election). In the context of SWTOR, this is a national election open to anyone.

 

If anything, the pre-messaging by the OP would tend to bias against the majority result in the poll.

[Vydor_HC]

Ah yes, another person who only believes a polling of every player = accurate polling.

 

The polling industry is mature, follows standard practices, and this is a random polling (ie: nobody was picked up and placed in front of the poll to stack the results. If they were, they would be stacked in favor of the OP, because that is what he wanted and expected.

 

There is absolutely nothing about the parameters of this poll, or the polling audience to indicate polling bias outside the margin of error.

 

Well, the question itself was rather vague and left open to interpretation. Which in my view is the biggest element in skewing this poll. We know quite a lot about the audience to believe it's a fairly good representation of the player base in this instance.

[Andryah]

No, that's not even remotely close to what we're arguing. What we're saying is that for the poll to be valid, for the margins of error to mean something, and for us to be able to draw any conclusions, we'd have to poll a random sample that is also representative of the distribution of the different play-styles in the population.

 

Your failure to understand that just shows that it is in fact you that knows nothing about polling techniques.

 

please show me any indicators that the poll results are anything other then a random sampling. Show me how and where the poll is being stufed with votes.

 

We actually have over 2500 posts to this thread to help demonstrate who is paying attention to the question of the poll. It's clearly diverse. It's just that more people are voting no then yes, by a very wide margin.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Andryah

[Wrrath]

Dude, this poll is open to anyone that comes to this thread sees the polling address, and goes and votes in the poll. It does not make any distinction or restriction to the deomgraphic that votes. It's not restricted to anyone (unlike your contrivance of Indiana deciding the presidential election). In the context of SWTOR, this is a national election open to anyone.

 

If anything, the pre-messaging by the OP would tend to bias against the majority result in the poll.

 

Except the major point you are missing is even though it is open to everyone, it doesn't mean that the people who come here are open in any way about their thinking. This entire forum could technically be filled with people who don't want combat logs and the people who do could reside in some far off distant land. Just because there is an open poll on this forum doesn't mean that the people who are in the far off distant land are going to vote at it. YOU DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE GENERAL PEOPLE WHO COME TO THIS FORUM AND THE COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE. Period, end of story. Comparing this forum to a nation is just asinine, even though it is the official forums, there are other forums where other players from this game go I.E. sithwarrior forums. If you want a more accurate result go over there and post the poll and see how it is received there then compare the two.