PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Vydor_HC]

The thing you choose to disregard is that polling theory does work and the sample size of this poll is statistically accurate in reflecting the total population with a margin of error of +/- 10% worst case. When you do not have the ability to obtain an vote from every member of a population, you apply accepted poll theory and sample the population to obtain an accurate result +/- an error margin.

 

I know some would like to invalidate the OPs poll on the grounds that it has a limited number of respondents. However, the entire basis of poll theory is that you can sample a small percentage of the population and obtain an accurate representation of the views of the total populations (+/- an error margin).

 

Polls based on samples of populations are subject to sampling error which reflects the effects of chance and uncertainty in the sampling process. The uncertainty is often expressed as a margin of error. The margin of error is usually defined as the radius of a confidence interval for a particular statistic from a survey.

 

One example is the percent of people who prefer product A versus product B (ie: a binary choice poll, such as the one the OP established). When a single, global margin of error is reported for a survey, it refers to the maximum margin of error for all reported percentages using the full sample from the survey. If the statistic is a percentage, this maximum margin of error can be calculated as the radius of the confidence interval for a reported percentage of 50%. For a poll with a random sample of 1,000 people generally accepted poll theory is that the margin of sampling error is ~ +/- 3% for the estimated percentage of the whole population.

 

Now, by applying consevative polling theory, since we have a sample size of ~ 400 right now, the margin of error would be on the order of +/- 10% worst case.

 

Given the current majority of respondents to the OPs poll is ~ 70% against, even if you accept a negative margin of error in the extreme (ie: -10%) in order to correlate to the total population, the poll still finds the majority of respondents are not in favor of the OPs proposal.

 

Not that it matters to the final decision by Bioware, it's just that rejecting a poll (that has a statistically relevant sample +/- error) that shows a majority one way or the other is not correct.

 

Beat me to it. Yeah it's quite possible to get an accurate reflection of millions of people with a small pool of respondents.

[Andryah]

Wouldn't a majority of the population mean that about 800,000 people would have to vote one way or another since there are over 1.2 million people playing this game? and you have...almost 400 total, sooo yea your missing maybe one or two people to claim a majority of the community sorry.

 

Nope. The entire point of polls is to establish high certertainty by polling a sample. The uncertainty factor is the margin of error, and is related to polling sample size, not total population size.

[Retzilla]

Beat me to it. Yeah it's quite possible to get an accurate reflection of millions of people with a small pool of respondents.

 

a small pool of .0002 percent of the population will yield an accurate data pool for the whole population, there is something entirely wrong about that.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Retzilla

[Snakke]

Nope. The entire point of polls is to establish high certertainty by polling a sample. The uncertainty factor is the margin of error, and is related to polling sample size, not total population size.

 

yeah but you are missing a few factors to make your assumption accurate

[Wrrath]

The thing you choose to disregard is that polling theory does work and the sample size of this poll is statistically accurate in reflecting the total population with a margin of error of +/- 10% worst case. When you do not have the ability to obtain an vote from every member of a population, you apply accepted poll theory and sample the population to obtain an accurate result +/- an error margin.

 

I know some would like to invalidate the OPs poll on the grounds that it has a limited number of respondents. However, the entire basis of poll theory is that you can sample a small percentage of the population and obtain an accurate representation of the views of the total populations (+/- an error margin).

 

Polls based on samples of populations are subject to sampling error which reflects the effects of chance and uncertainty in the sampling process. The uncertainty is often expressed as a margin of error. The margin of error is usually defined as the radius of a confidence interval for a particular statistic from a survey.

 

One example is the percent of people who prefer product A versus product B. When a single, global margin of error is reported for a survey, it refers to the maximum margin of error for all reported percentages using the full sample from the survey. If the statistic is a percentage, this maximum margin of error can be calculated as the radius of the confidence interval for a reported percentage of 50%. For a poll with a random sample of 1,000 people generally accepted poll theory is that the margin of sampling error is ~ +/- 3% for the estimated percentage of the whole population.

 

Now, by applying consevative polling theory, since we have a sample size of ~ 400 right now, the margin of error would be on the order of +/- 10% worst case.

 

Given the current majority of respondents to the OPs poll is ~ 70% against, even if you accept a negative margin of error in the extreme (ie: -10%) in order to correlate to the total population, the poll still finds the majority of respondents are not in favor of the OPs proposal.

 

Not that it matters to the final decision by Bioware, it's just that rejecting a poll (that has a statistically relevant sample +/- error) that shows a majority one way or the other is not correct.

 

If more then .01 percent of the total number of people have voted then maybe I would take it more seriously even with the sound numbers you are presenting. Maybe if it wasn't an online poll that can easily be circumvented to vote multiple times or as many times as you want I would take it seriously. If I truly wanted to right now I could change the percentage of that poll simply by changing one simple thing on my computer then voting as many times as I wanted to. An online poll that can be circumvented by anyone with a slight knowledge of computers means nothing in my opinion. If you want to present it as a majority in this thread that's fine. To claim it as a majority of the entire game based on math that works with real world polls is simply put faulty.

[Ganelon]

Nope. The entire point of polls is to establish high certertainty by polling a sample. The uncertainty factor is the margin of error, and is related to polling sample size, not total population size.

 

The margin of error is a function of population size, sample size and confidence level you want from your poll results. All you said is correct, but you forgot to mention that your sample needs to be unbiased for the analysis to work. And we have no indication that the people who frequent the forums and chose to answer the poll are an unbiased sample of the game's population when it comes to the issue being discussed.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Ganelon

[Deathmond]

we really need a combat log and DPS\HPS meters!

[Snakke]

The margin of error is a function of population size, sample size and confidence level you want from your poll results. All you said is correct, but you forgot to mention that your sample needs to be unbiased for the analysis to work. And we have no indication that the people who frequent the forums and chose to answer the poll are an unbiased sample of the game's population when it comes to the issue being discussed.

 

^ him

[genesiser]

I have a question.

 

What is considered misuse or abuse when people use meters/logs or whatever. I'll post two different things someone could say when they use meters and I'd like to know what's considered abuse/misuse of meters/logs.

 

1.) "Looking for 1 more dps for x flash point, must do at least 1,000 dps - send tell if interested"

 

2.) "Your dps is really low, pick it up or we find someone else."

 

Out of those two statements, are both considered misuse or is it one of them? Answering this could help the pro meter crowd understand the thought behind the anti meter camp. Because just saying people will misuse the meters and that's we don't want them doesn't help all that much when trying to convince the other side why your reasoning is right.

Edited March 14, 2012 by genesiser

[Andryah]

And we have no indication that the people who frequent the forums and chose to answer the poll are an unbiased sample of the game's population when it comes to the issue being discussed.

 

Conversely, we have no indication otherwise. Never the less, I assumed a conservative stance in assuming the worst case in margin of error of -10% to poll results.

 

If the poll results were very close (it's not, there's a 40 point spread) then It's all up for grabs. And they have remained very skewed (40+ points) throughout the life of the poll, which is to be expected if the poll is relatively bias free. Even more so for a poll driven from a very passionate thread such as this one.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Andryah

[Retzilla]

I have a question.

 

What is considered misuse or abuse when people use meters/logs or whatever. I'll post two different things someone could say when they use meters and I'd like to know what's considered abuse/misuse of meters/logs.

 

1.) "Looking for 1 more dps for x flash point, must do at least 1,000 dps - send tell if interested"

 

2.) "Your dps is really low, pick it up or we find someone else."

 

Out of those two statements, are both considered misuse or is it one of them? Answering this could help the pro meter crowd understand the thought behind the anti meter camp. Because just saying people will misuse the meters and that's we don't want them doesn't help all that much when trying to convince the other side why your reasoning is right.

 

i would like to see a legitimate answer to this

[Rebeldad]

I agree combat logs can tell you the best rotation out of your char

 

If you are not in this game to do the best damage best tanking best healing

 

then why play?

 

Because i want to have fun not be told by some pseudo boss that I am not cutting it. You seem to not understand it is a game and that many dont join it for the same reason. The guild I am in is awesome we do some raiding but dont let it rule us. Wait til you get a bit older and have a life, you will understand.

I am not saying I should not have a good rotation but if I dont pick "your" rotation that should not exclude me from the group.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Rebeldad

[MisterData]

I have a question.

 

What is considered misuse or abuse when people use meters/logs or whatever. I'll post two different things someone could say when they use meters and I'd like to know what's considered abuse/misuse of meters/logs.

 

1.) "Looking for 1 more dps for x flash point, must do at least 1,000 dps - send tell if interested"

 

2.) "Your dps is really low, pick it up or we find someone else."

 

Out of those two statements, are both considered misuse or is it one of them? Answering this could help the pro meter crowd understand the thought behind the anti meter camp. Because just saying people will misuse the meters and that's we don't want them doesn't help all that much when trying to convince the other side why your reasoning is right.

 

I don't think either of them is misuse. One is a valid request, the other a valid complaint.

[fungihoujo]

Except in the end people who grief will find a way to grief. That is the end of the story. I have already seen griefing in this game, it's going to happen regardless of what happens with combat logs. That is the point I am trying to make. I understand that the combat log gives them more ammunition I just don't see it as a valid reason as why to exclude it. You can argue combat logs are not needed, you can say they will make the game to easy but to exclude it because of people who will misuse it is just laughable in my opinion.

 

Giving someone a tool to make griefing easier is always a bad idea.

 

I can cause damage to public property without any sort of tool, but giving me a bottle of spray paint is just asking for trouble. Many current ways of griefing can also be reported- whereas reports of being kicked from a group due to dps meters BW included would never be taken seriously.

 

Frankly, things get excluded based on whether or not people would misuse them all the time- from guns to alcohol underaged to drugs- and in that case, sometimes people saying 'we should have guns' are also saying 'we shouldn't have drugs', despite both having the same argument of 'well, just cuz I have it doesn't mean I'll misuse it'.

 

I don't think it's a great argument myself, but, that isn't to say it is not an argument without some merit or one that doesn't belong in this discussion.

 

I'd rather see DPS meters have limited use- so they CAN be used correctly to improve your own skills, without being a big risk of being misused to disclude people from dungeons they should be running- and lets face it, raid geared players often kicked blue geared people from HEROICS that were indeed dungeons that were suited more for the blue geared players- why? Wasn't going fast enough...

 

And that blue geared dps is unable to gear up due to it, and is now waiting in an hour long queue again, and each time is feeling more and more like cancelling his sub.

[Rebeldad]

Giving someone a tool to make griefing easier is always a bad idea.

 

I can cause damage to public property without any sort of tool, but giving me a bottle of spray paint is just asking for trouble. Many current ways of griefing can also be reported- whereas reports of being kicked from a group due to dps meters BW included would never be taken seriously.

 

Frankly, things get excluded based on whether or not people would misuse them all the time- from guns to alcohol underaged to drugs- and in that case, sometimes people saying 'we should have guns' are also saying 'we shouldn't have drugs', despite both having the same argument of 'well, just cuz I have it doesn't mean I'll misuse it'.

 

I don't think it's a great argument myself, but, that isn't to say it is not an argument without some merit or one that doesn't belong in this discussion.

 

I'd rather see DPS meters have limited use- so they CAN be used correctly to improve your own skills, without being a big risk of being misused to disclude people from dungeons they should be running- and lets face it, raid geared players often kicked blue geared people from HEROICS that were indeed dungeons that were suited more for the blue geared players- why? Wasn't going fast enough...

 

And that blue geared dps is unable to gear up due to it, and is now waiting in an hour long queue again, and each time is feeling more and more like cancelling his sub.

 

 

^ good post

[Snakke]

Giving someone a tool to make griefing easier is always a bad idea.

 

I can cause damage to public property without any sort of tool, but giving me a bottle of spray paint is just asking for trouble. Many current ways of griefing can also be reported- whereas reports of being kicked from a group due to dps meters BW included would never be taken seriously.

 

Frankly, things get excluded based on whether or not people would misuse them all the time- from guns to alcohol underaged to drugs- and in that case, sometimes people saying 'we should have guns' are also saying 'we shouldn't have drugs', despite both having the same argument of 'well, just cuz I have it doesn't mean I'll misuse it'.

 

I don't think it's a great argument myself, but, that isn't to say it is not an argument without some merit or one that doesn't belong in this discussion.

 

I'd rather see DPS meters have limited use- so they CAN be used correctly to improve your own skills, without being a big risk of being misused to disclude people from dungeons they should be running- and lets face it, raid geared players often kicked blue geared people from HEROICS that were indeed dungeons that were suited more for the blue geared players- why? Wasn't going fast enough...

 

And that blue geared dps is unable to gear up due to it, and is now waiting in an hour long queue again, and each time is feeling more and more like cancelling his sub.

 

So according to your logic we shouldn't sell paint, GOOD ARGUMENT, LOL NOT.

 

 

 

But yeah, it doesn't matter if you give people combat logs or not. If people want to troll you or make fun of you, they do not need combat logs to do so. Combat logs just give them more material.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Snakke

[Drewser]

a small pool of .0002 percent of the population will yield an accurate data pool for the whole population, there is something entirely wrong about that.

 

It works with political polling. Go back and look at the presidential polls from last election cycle, sometimes as little as 1000-1500 people got within a few percentage points of the final vote outcome.

[Vankris]

I have a question.

 

What is considered misuse or abuse when people use meters/logs or whatever. I'll post two different things someone could say when they use meters and I'd like to know what's considered abuse/misuse of meters/logs.

 

1.) "Looking for 1 more dps for x flash point, must do at least 1,000 dps - send tell if interested"

 

2.) "Your dps is really low, pick it up or we find someone else."

 

Out of those two statements, are both considered misuse or is it one of them? Answering this could help the pro meter crowd understand the thought behind the anti meter camp. Because just saying people will misuse the meters and that's we don't want them doesn't help all that much when trying to convince the other side why your reasoning is right.

 

1. honnestly people make a group can make their own rules. There is no law, no rules, not written the constitution of any country that you have to group and play with the first person that comes across.

 

if a person just looking for x amount of gear or dps, well so it does, either look for another group or start yours.

 

 

 

2. this really depends. If the player is really terribly low and the group wipe, maybe the lead should do something before the group fall apart but sometimes, people jump the gun.

 

however, now you get kick by people just inspecting you, not even giving you a chance. At least with damage meters, you had your chance, i think it's better.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Vankris

[Snakke]

It works with political polling. Go back and look at the presidential polls from last election cycle, sometimes as little as 1000-1500 people got within a few percentage points of the final vote outcome.

 

This isn't even close to a political poll, in political polls other factors are taken into account such as previous elections and how districts usual vote/have voted in the past. We don't have that in this poll making the argument void.

[Ulmius]

I have a question.

 

What is considered misuse or abuse when people use meters/logs or whatever. I'll post two different things someone could say when they use meters and I'd like to know what's considered abuse/misuse of meters/logs.

 

1.) "Looking for 1 more dps for x flash point, must do at least 1,000 dps - send tell if interested"

 

2.) "Your dps is really low, pick it up or we find someone else."

 

Out of those two statements, are both considered misuse or is it one of them? Answering this could help the pro meter crowd understand the thought behind the anti meter camp. Because just saying people will misuse the meters and that's we don't want them doesn't help all that much when trying to convince the other side why your reasoning is right.

 

I'm pro meters so I guess what I have to say doesn't really matter, but I don't see a problem with either of those.

 

I am curious as to see how an anti meter person would answer your question. It seems like they are purposely ignoring it though.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Ulmius

[Retzilla]

Giving someone a tool to make griefing easier is always a bad idea.

 

I can cause damage to public property without any sort of tool, but giving me a bottle of spray paint is just asking for trouble. Many current ways of griefing can also be reported- whereas reports of being kicked from a group due to dps meters BW included would never be taken seriously.

 

Frankly, things get excluded based on whether or not people would misuse them all the time- from guns to alcohol underaged to drugs- and in that case, sometimes people saying 'we should have guns' are also saying 'we shouldn't have drugs', despite both having the same argument of 'well, just cuz I have it doesn't mean I'll misuse it'.

 

I don't think it's a great argument myself, but, that isn't to say it is not an argument without some merit or one that doesn't belong in this discussion.

 

I'd rather see DPS meters have limited use- so they CAN be used correctly to improve your own skills, without being a big risk of being misused to disclude people from dungeons they should be running- and lets face it, raid geared players often kicked blue geared people from HEROICS that were indeed dungeons that were suited more for the blue geared players- why? Wasn't going fast enough...

 

And that blue geared dps is unable to gear up due to it, and is now waiting in an hour long queue again, and each time is feeling more and more like cancelling his sub.

 

listen, combat logs or no combat logs if I want to troll you to kingdom come I will. a combat log will make it as easy to troll you as easy as you let yourself be. I can sit here and mock at parts of your post, I can run a flashpoint and laugh when you stand in fire. it doesn't matter excluding a useful tool because someone might misuse it is nonsense, by the logic of your argument cell-phones illegal because people use it to set off bombs,

Edited March 14, 2012 by Retzilla

[Andryah]

This isn't even close to a political poll, in political polls other factors are taken into account such as previous elections and how districts usual vote/have voted in the past. We don't have that in this poll making the argument void.

 

Incorrect. This is a straight binary poll. Chose A or Choose B. NO OTHER VARIABLES injected, not even adjacent poll questions (which is where some political polls get more complicated). It's exactly like voting in a two party election.

 

Binary polls are very relevant and actually work on smaller sample sizes with narrower margins of error then I proposed in my analysis.

 

I went with conservative margin of error assumptions to more then offset for any likely bias in polling. The end result is there is still a 30 point majority. It's not even remotely close in the context of a poll result where i already factored in the largest theoretical negative to the majority poll result.

 

Look, I understand that you don't like the poll results. But you not liking the results does not invalidate basic polling theory and results analysis.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Andryah

[Ganelon]

Conversely, we have no indication otherwise. Never the less, I assumed a conservative stance in assuming the worst case in margin of error of -10% to poll results.

 

If the poll results were very close (it's not, there's a 40 point spread) then It's all up for grabs. And they have remained very skewed (40+ points) throughout the life of the poll, which is to be expected if the poll is relatively bias free. Even more so for a poll driven from a very passionate thread such as this one.

 

No, since we have no idea on how biased the sample is we can make no assumptions on what the margin of error really is.

 

Just to give you an extreme example, I'd bet you anything you want that if we were to poll the subject of stricter gun control laws next to a NRA rally we'd see results that are even more of a landslide win for one of the sides than the ones we have for this poll. It still wouldn't mean that the sample is unbiased and that the results reflect the opinion of the entire population.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Ganelon

[Drewser]

This isn't even close to a political poll, in political polls other factors are taken into account such as previous elections and how districts usual vote/have voted in the past. We don't have that in this poll making the argument void.

 

I didn't say this was a perfect poll based on sampling, just that you could accurately predict whole population results on a very small sampling size.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Drewser

[Snakke]

Incorrect. This is a straight binary poll. Chose A or Choose B. NO OTHER VARIABLES injected, not even adjacent poll questions (which is where some political polls get more complicated). It's exactly like voting in a two party election.

 

Binary polls are very relevant and actually work on smaller sample sizes with narrower margins of error then I proposed in my analysis.

 

I went with conservative margin of error assumptions to more then offset for any likely bias in polling. The end result is there is still a 30 point majority. It's not even remotely close in the context of a poll result where i already factored in the largest theoretical negative to the majority poll result.

 

Look, I understand that you don't like the poll results. But you not liking the results does not invalidate basic polling theory and results analysis.

 

Its nothing at all like a political poll.