Solving the Jedi's "rock-throwing" problem

[Dyvim]

+1 for Kitchen Sink.

 

Though Wile E. Coyote hates you for the piano.

 

Here is a little bit of chunk a clunker trivia for ya...

 

When I have two boxes side by side, running two accounts, and use project on one, I see a rock, but on the other acct, I see a different random piece of junk. So each client hits off that random table separately...lol

 

So when you are pvping and love that rock, and think wow, I just smashed that guy with a rock...he probably saw a droid chassis, or some other piece of junk.

 

The project animation is really crap. Really. The cheat junk conjuring makes for the most ridiculous animation in the game.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Dyvim

[RodneyMcNeely]

I like Project and Telekinetic Throw the way they are. The only thing I would change is to make the objects thrown relevant to the environment.

 

For example, on a ship or in a facility the object thrown could be deck plating, pipes, etc. For outdoor terrain, rocks and such work just fine. Tweak it a bit, and I think it's okay.

 

Just my 2 credits.

 

[Razdek]

lame animations, and a poorly implemented story. Consulers got ripped off.

[Bhaers]

I like how the engine randomly throws a bunch of stuff out of the ground personally, but I do agree the gravel thing is a bit weak in appearance.

 

Despite only being a few days old, I know that on a few planets already the Maintenance-Droids see me coming and start complaining to the senators. The holes I am leaving in the flooring, not to mention the bits of machinery and equipment I pull out of the ground is really increasing their workload.

 

Watching what comes out I am thinking that on Coruscant at least there are a few people who were watching Galactic-**** on their holoprojectors when I was a floor over them, to rip the display out of their hands to fling at a Sith.

 

I agree, the gravel storm could be more exciting for sure and a few more different types of objects to hurl would be nice too.

[tufy]

It's really a personal preference thing.

 

I like the rock animations much more than the lightning animations.

 

This.

[PlagaNerezza]

I think project should be changed so we shoot killer rainbows.

 

J/k.

 

 

Project if it needs to be a stream could simply be changed to something like a sound wave animation and then make the attacks "audible" based attacks. As we've seen recent weaponary being developed that uses audio based disturbances in crowd control it would fit more strongly with the Jedi philosophy of using non-violence against enemies.

 

I don't have a problem with telekentic throws of rocks. I just think project is freaking stupid looking.

[beefstoo]

 

• It shouldn't be too much to change Project into a mini-Force Quake that hits one target for a potential knock-down. Throw in just a small bit of flaming rocks and something like this looks even nicer. Should be pretty easy to do. I agree with this, except for the potential knock-down, it should remain a stun. that way it would not cause imbalance between consular/inquisitor as shock does not do anything that project doesn't already, besides instant damage. the difference is that project seems to be designed to "reserve" damage instantly when casted, and actually deal it when the rock hits for a better effect. making it a small quake could actually make it function identically to shock. /thumbsup
  
• Telekinetic Throw could also be changed to something to emit from a fissure in the ground instead of the pebbles-out-of-nowhere or a barrage of force energy being thrown toward the target (like multiple small Disturbance shots). I agree with this as well. Maybe something like what Satele Shan did near the end of the cinematic which takes place on Alderaan.
  

 

 

/endorse

[DirtyBirdie]

I like pebble throw and project. I agree it would be way cooler if what was thrown reflected the current environment, like on spaceships you could throw a huge chunk of pipe or circuitry or something/small scraps of metal for TK Throw but i think its way more interesting than lightning spam. And as far as damage you COULD make the damage instantaneous and just not have it line up with the actual impact of the objects... sort of a crappy bandaid but it would solve the balance issues between sides extremely easily. Sort of reminds me of how balance hits before the wave expands.

[Blistrich]

Animations can and most likely will be updated over time. I would imagine that eventually, when they have less sweeping changes on the menu, some new junk will pop up for people to toss around based on the local environment.

 

As for whether or not you feel comfortable with the "realism" of certain animations, characters, or roles in SWTOR, just remember that you are playing an online game based on a fictional universe (the lore of which is only as solid as the latest comic book, movie, or novel) originally drummed up by a guy who became the film director he is today because the US Air Force rejected his officer application on the grounds that he had one too many speeding tickets.

 

Hopefully, when placed in that context, the pebbles will seem somewhat superfluous.

[Dyvim]

I like pebble throw and project. I agree it would be way cooler if what was thrown reflected the current environment, like on spaceships you could throw a huge chunk of pipe or circuitry or something/small scraps of metal for TK Throw but i think its way more interesting than lightning spam. And as far as damage you COULD make the damage instantaneous and just not have it line up with the actual impact of the objects... sort of a crappy bandaid but it would solve the balance issues between sides extremely easily. Sort of reminds me of how balance hits before the wave expands.

 

Junk and pebbles are more interesting than lightning? Uh, no. They are more of a joke. They are more ridiculous. So I guess in a humor or parody way, they might be more interesting...I've seen multiple people post that they like pebblestorm because they think it is a way to kill their enemy that embarrasses them...because dying from pebbles is such a joke. That IS NOT the hallmark of a good jedi animation, boys and girls.

 

But gravel spam more interesting than lightning spam...lol. WHen I fry a mob with lightning, and it is still on the ground, twitching, even after its dead...NOW THAT is interesting. That is cool. That is WAY beyond anything rocks, junk, or pebbles can ever offer.

 

If you cheat with the animation even further (it already cheats the environment with magical conjuring and environmentally ignorant magical conjuring, at that), it just becomes completely irelevant. Why should someone take damage when they cloak and the clunker never hits??? It just makes a bad joke worse, and bigger.

 

THere is NO compelliing reason to keep the animation to have jedi = junk thrower. NO WHERE is there any thing to suggest that jedi are rabid junk throwers. Its like watching a bad robot chicken parody...

 

Its NOT just a matter of personal preference...this is an IP based game and the IP matters. The 6 movies that are the foundation of that IP matter. And in those movies, not ONE TIME does a jedi throw a rock (with the force). In fact, jedi throw something at a target, reflectively, as much as they use choke. Sith, on the other hand, throw things MORE than they use lightning or choke. EVERY sith throws things at a target in the movies. Making the jedi signature move, junk throwing, out of something that is clearly a sith frequent, favorite attack, is just completely unacceptable.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Dyvim

[Blistrich]

NO WHERE is there any thing to suggest that Jedi are rabid junk throwers.

Nowhere does it say anything about Sith having Jedi apprentices who don't turn to the Dark Side, but it happens in SWTOR. Neither are there any references to Imperial Agents whatsoever (except some obscure information on how Tarkin used to be one), nor is there any basis in lore for the vast majority of class skills, some enemies, and countless locations. Subsequently, nowhere in the vast catalogue of Star Wars "lore" does it say anything about the illogicality of naming my character "Smellyfingers" or "Junkrammer".

 

The reasons for all this are two-fold.

 

1) Star Wars isn't like Lord of the Rings. Star Wars is constantly being expanded and re-worked, and occasionally this results in major inconsistencies while simultaneously giving people a LOT of room to just add things for the sake of convenience. I will use Starkiller as a prime example of this - a character dropped in years and years after Lucas decided that "Luke Starkiller" was an inappropriate name for the story's original protagonist, and who apparently takes the place of the original Rebellion instigator. In other words, Star Wars lore is far from solid, rather, it is both squishy and amorphous.

 

2) You're playing an online game. It's an online game. I can't stress this enough. Yes, Jedi throw pebbles in SWTOR. And why not? Seriously, because you didn't see any pebble throwing in the movies or the novels or the comic books? Come on man - they needed an animation for ranged attacks, and they decided to go with the rocks.

 

Is it really worth arguing the legitimacy of such a decision given the environment?

Edited April 3, 2012 by Blistrich

[Dyvim]

...

 

Is it really worth arguing the legitimacy of such a decision given the environment?

 

Yes, b/c we are talking about something as BASIC as the look and feel of the jedi class and its signature IDENTIFYING skills in this game. In this game consulars are more like earth shamans. Jedi do not throw magically conjured junk every combat, every rotation. It is laughable. Kind of like black core lightsabers.

 

Yes the EU is constantly expanding, yes there are stupid inconsistencies and device plots...but, at the end of the day, jedi are jedi and sith are sith. You dont flip flop and take an attack EVERY SINGLE SITH used, and used it MORE than any other range attack...junk throwing, and then turn around and make jedi junk throwers in this game. It is UNACCEPTABLE. The lore matters. The previous history of successful jedi games matter.

 

Jedi choke. Jedi shoot lightning. Jedi throw things...ALL of these happen RARELY. They are the EXCEPTION, not the rule, as this game has twisted things. Having jedi as ad nauseam junk throwers makes as much sense as having them shoot green sparks all the time...

Edited April 3, 2012 by Dyvim

[Katchii]

Sorceror lightning is cool for a while, but honestly, as a Sorceror DPS, having every major attack I perform be based on lightning is really redundant and gets annoying after a while. Sages throw stuff using the force, and while mildly-fast-floating-pebbles-being-conjured-from nowhere isn't nearly as cool as lightning, it's much less annoying.

 

Honestly? I like sage better than sorceror because not all of my attacks are the same.

 

And really dude, you're going to argue about where they pulled these "signature" moves from? Why does it matter? it's a game based on a space fantasy where magic (the force) can be used to do just about anything.

 

Bioware decided that Sages used the force to pull stuff from their surroundings (or conjure it) and throw it at the enemy and that Sorcerors would conjure lightning using the force....thats it. They needed to differentiate between the classes in some way, and thats how they did it.

 

If you really don't like it, come up with a better alternative, or don't play the class.

[Dyvim]

Sorceror lightning is cool for a while, but honestly, as a Sorceror DPS, having every major attack I perform be based on lightning is really redundant and gets annoying after a while. Sages throw stuff using the force, and while mildly-fast-floating-pebbles-being-conjured-from nowhere isn't nearly as cool as lightning, it's much less annoying.

 

Honestly? I like sage better than sorceror because not all of my attacks are the same.

 

And really dude, you're going to argue about where they pulled these "signature" moves from? Why does it matter? it's a game based on a space fantasy where magic (the force) can be used to do just about anything.

 

Bioware decided that Sages used the force to pull stuff from their surroundings (or conjure it) and throw it at the enemy and that Sorcerors would conjure lightning using the force....thats it. They needed to differentiate between the classes in some way, and thats how they did it.

 

If you really don't like it, come up with a better alternative, or don't play the class.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=29235

 

50 page thread I started discussing BETTER alternatives. There has been a thread like that from different players ever since I was in beta early last summer, and probably before that...lol, you call lightning redundant? What do you call endless pebblestorms and chunked junk??? Not only is that boring, it violates the canon, is a joke, and is fundamentally unbelievable...jedi arent conjurers...waaaaaay wrong IP. No where in SIX movies, did jedi pebblestorm. You want to base the class on a skill they NEVER did in SIX movies? Its laughable.

 

As for chunk a clunker, Yoda threw ONE car back at palpitane. Anakin gave us a vader preview of tossing a few things in the same movie he slaughtered women and children in and got married, so I dont count him as a jedi...So basically jedi threw an object with the force as many times as they used choke. I understand people can be clueless and clueless about the lore...but what we have now makes about as much sense as jedi choking every combat rotation.

 

Yes, it a game based on an IP. Does it matter? Well would it matter if we called the game "Pigs in Space"? Yep, and it matters that they get the basic look and feel of jedi right...probably the most iconic warriors in scifi...ever. So yeah, that kind of matters. It also kind of matters that they arent portrayed as joke junk throwers. Yeah, that matters.

 

If you know anything about the lore, or even bother to read a wiki or two, force push is the obvious concept to base the class off of. Anyone who knows the difference between a lightsaber and a chopstick could come up with that...

 

Then to go with junk throwing, and have ridiculous conjuring animations on top of that is inexcusable...then on top of that to have the damage delay and other problems associated with it is a down right abomination.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Dyvim

[Darlgon]

As for whether or not you feel comfortable with the "realism" of certain animations, characters, or roles in SWTOR, just remember that you are playing an online game based on a fictional universe (the lore of which is only as solid as the latest comic book, movie, or novel) originally drummed up by a guy who became the film director he is today because the US Air Force rejected his officer application on the grounds that he had one too many speeding tickets.

 

Cool. Did not know that George Lucas was the role-model for the new James T Kirk.

[Deciimate]

dear bw,

please make the sage more...jedi like. i mean you list yoda as in inspiration. thats insulting. a sage should be a master of the force, and be able to use their saber equally as efficient. like others said, sage is just a job they are still jedi and should still be formidable in every aspect. and i agree that rock throwing is lame and non canonical...is that word? anyways... yeah. faction balance needs help and the sage is the first step i believe. thank you for reading.

[Katchii]

0 page thread I started discussing BETTER alternatives. There has been a thread like that from different players ever since I was in beta early last summer, and probably before that...lol, you call lightning redundant? What do you call endless pebblestorms and chunked junk??? Not only is that boring, it violates the canon, is a joke, and is fundamentally unbelievable...jedi arent conjurers...waaaaaay wrong IP. No where in SIX movies, did jedi pebblestorm. You want to base the class on a skill they NEVER did in SIX movies? Its laughable.

 

As for chunk a clunker, Yoda threw ONE car back at palpitane. Anakin gave us a vader preview of tossing a few things in the same movie he slaughtered women and children in and got married, so I dont count him as a jedi...So basically jedi threw an object with the force as many times as they used choke. I understand people can be clueless and clueless about the lore...but what we have now makes about as much sense as jedi choking every combat rotation.

 

Yes, it a game based on an IP. Does it matter? Well would it matter if we called the game "Pigs in Space"? Yep, and it matters that they get the basic look and feel of jedi right...probably the most iconic warriors in scifi...ever. So yeah, that kind of matters. It also kind of matters that they arent portrayed as joke junk throwers. Yeah, that matters.

 

If you know anything about the lore, or even bother to read a wiki or two, force push is the obvious concept to base the class off of. Anyone who knows the difference between a lightsaber and a chopstick could come up with that...

 

Then to go with junk throwing, and have ridiculous conjuring animations on top of that is inexcusable...then on top of that to have the damage delay and other problems associated with it is a down right abomination.

 

Any arguments made against your point will be falling on deaf ears I think. I'll just keep playing and enjoying my sage while you continue on your crusade against lore breaking pebble conjuring jedi.....

[Dyvim]

Any arguments made against your point will be falling on deaf ears I think. I'll just keep playing and enjoying my sage while you continue on your crusade against lore breaking pebble conjuring jedi.....

 

Is my characterization wrong? Are jedi not reduced to junk throwing shamans in this game??? Or maybe you can point out one time in six movies a jedi used the force to throw a rock??? (Luke threw one the old fashioned way in rotj)

 

I am a star wars fan(atic)...I take offense at jedi poorly done, and this game reeks of it. There is no excuse for it.

 

But your statement is unfair. Make a good argument, based in lore and I will be very fair about it. Problem is, no one can here. It is a clear cut cluster f on BWs part. Jedi != junk.

[Ceinlys]

The Jedi are known for using environmental features and throwing them at their enemies.

 

The films portray at least two examples:-

 

Yoda throwing a Senate 'pod' at Palpatine I've seen people mention a lot on this thread, but also if my memory serves me didn't Obi-Wan rip a crate off the ceiling to crush a group of battledroids before he fought Grievious?

[Katchii]

The point that stikes me most about your posts is that you constantly refer back to the source material, and how jedi never throw stuff, or very rarely, therefore making the moves in SWToR blasphemous in some way. My problem is that your SUCH a jedi/ star wars fanboy that you can't stand for something that wasn't in the movies to be shown in the game.

 

Why does the source material have to think for you? Why can't something that WASN'T in the source material be in the game?

 

The force can be used to do what is done in this game (except conjure stones from thin air, I'll give you that) so why is it blasphemous that this is how Bioware decided to differentiate between the factions? a Jedi CAN throw environmental objects and they can cause pebble storms (in areas where that many pebbles exist....or perhaps THAT'S what is being stored in that huge backside when your wearing robes) so why is it so bad?

 

I'm enjoying the game as is, I'll admit that some of the animations could be better, but it's not breaking my enjoyment factor nor my immersion. I can't wrap my brain around why this could break the game for someone. I can't empathise with you, I just can't understand why you are unable to think outside the box a little bit....

 

I apologize for sounding rude, but your hate for this just seems irrational and illogical to me. The dislike for the animations is understandable, but to be so vehemently opposed to the theme of the animations based on what is or isn't in the source material just seems narrow minded.

[Dyvim]

The Jedi are known for using environmental features and throwing them at their enemies.

 

The films portray at least two examples:-

 

Yoda throwing a Senate 'pod' at Palpatine I've seen people mention a lot on this thread, but also if my memory serves me didn't Obi-Wan rip a crate off the ceiling to crush a group of battledroids before he fought Grievious?

 

After sidious threw 7 cars at Yoda, he stopped a car and threw back what had been tossed at him, kind of like stopping and reflecting a blaster bolt. If Yoda was a junk tosser like sidious was, yoda would have had endless ammo...but he clearly didnt do that...

 

The other one I know of is Anakin in the droid factory on geonosis...he throws some droid chassis at geos. But this is the same movie he does a ton of non-jedi things...like getting married, slaughtering women and children, etc. So I consider that more of a vader preview...

 

But what we are shown is is every single Sith throwing junk. It is their favored ranged attack, one they use more than lightning, more than choke...

 

The point that stikes me most about your posts is that you constantly refer back to the source material, and how jedi never throw stuff, or very rarely, therefore making the moves in SWToR blasphemous in some way. My problem is that your SUCH a jedi/ star wars fanboy that you can't stand for something that wasn't in the movies to be shown in the game.

 

Why does the source material have to think for you? Why can't something that WASN'T in the source material be in the game?

 

The force can be used to do what is done in this game (except conjure stones from thin air, I'll give you that) so why is it blasphemous that this is how Bioware decided to differentiate between the factions? a Jedi CAN throw environmental objects and they can cause pebble storms (in areas where that many pebbles exist....or perhaps THAT'S what is being stored in that huge backside when your wearing robes) so why is it so bad?

 

I'm enjoying the game as is, I'll admit that some of the animations could be better, but it's not breaking my enjoyment factor nor my immersion. I can't wrap my brain around why this could break the game for someone. I can't empathise with you, I just can't understand why you are unable to think outside the box a little bit....

 

I apologize for sounding rude, but your hate for this just seems irrational and illogical to me. The dislike for the animations is understandable, but to be so vehemently opposed to the theme of the animations based on what is or isn't in the source material just seems narrow minded.

 

I'll ask it again...Is my characterization wrong? Are jedi not reduced to junk throwing shamans in this game???

 

If you arent going to follow the IP, why have an IP based game? Its not like BW had some kind of creative genius here and came up with some new novel power. That is not the case. What they did do is take something SITH do predominantly, jedi do RARELY, and make it the basis and signature skills of the jedi consular. THey didnt come up with something new, they took what the DIAMETRIC OPPOSITES of the jedi do, and twisted jedi into junk throwers, every combat, every rotation. Skills, project and throw, that are impacted by 10+ talents.

 

On top of that, they did it with crappy, conjuring animations that have a damage delay in it that makes the skill feel unresponsive and slow compared to its mirror.

 

So, for those home gamers, lets count the way the animation fails....

 

1) Breaks the mirror mechanic with damage delay

2) Breaks the suspension of disbelief mechanics with endless junk conjuring

3) Breaks the environment by conjuring laughingly inappropriate junk, like rocks in spaceships

4) Breaks the fundamentals of the lore. Jedi arent junk throwers. If ANYONE throws junk in the game, it should be Sith. This goes back in the lore and back to the VERY first 3d lucas game where you could wield a lightsaber and use force powers. Throwing junk was classified as a darkside skill then...and always has been, afaik...

 

That is more than 3 strikes, boys and girls...

Edited April 4, 2012 by Dyvim

[Blistrich]

I'll ask it again...Is my characterization wrong? Are jedi not reduced to junk throwing shamans in this game???

Yes. In this game, they are.

 

It's quite ridiculous, but so is this.

 

Star Wars in general is quite ridiculous. It often does not take itself particularly seriously, as evidenced by a lot of its spinoffs, and that's one of the things I like about it. Canon is best left for discussions regarding the origin of Sauron and whether or not he is the Necromancer from The Hobbit.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Blistrich

[RG_jhanlec]

It still wouldn't be instant, but if the projectile came from a random spot within a few feet of the target and went from the ground directly to their body at high speed it would be much more like lightning.

 

Lightning has a negligible animation, maybe 0.2 sec to hit target (+/- server/connection lag).... projectile could be 0.4ish based on what I mentioned above. 0.2 sec is not really noticeable at all, even dismissible within the grand scheme of lag/connection time lapse for most players.

 

The biggest issue now is that over a long distance, plus the random mid-air hang can make the skill take 1+ seconds to hit on something that should be theoretically instant to match lightning. If the Projectile always came from a few feet away from target and skipped the rise, hang animation, that would help immensely.

[Radamus]

Maybe they could fix Projects animation to be an instant hit Consular version of Force Push,

hits instantly but otherwise from the animation and instant hit skill stays the same. Always thought it was silly being master force users and not having a Force Push or it's like ability. Not suggesting it have the knockback effect just the animation. For the record I do like Projects current look but I hate the travel time and environmental inconsistency more than I like the look. It would be awesome if TKThrow was reanimated to look like Project Storm.

[Tahana]

As far as the skills go.. I have no issue. I never get tired of planting large boulders in my enemies face.. The only thing that would be cooler is if I got to see their head melt or something like that.