Mara/Pally Bubble needs to be looked at(Undying Rage)

[jgarib]

I'm sure you are good, but your ability as a Sentinel/Marauder can still grow if you have issues staying on target.

 

You should be able to solo kill any Sage/Scoundrel healer. Commanbo/BH healers absord too much of our damage, and they have an uninterruptable shield.

 

I have no problem sticking on them. I have a problem building and maintaining 5 stacks and keeping it there consistently. I can take these folks down, but it requires a 30-60 second investment and a lot of chase.

 

I run up to them and start hitting them, they use KB. I leap back to them and slow, they stun (5s) and LOS so I cant leap. Between the stun and running to them, i've lost all my stacks. I begin building it up again, they crit heal. I force choke after dots are applied, they stun and LOS. Rinse, repeat.

 

Against a good healer, who can LOS and CC, is equally or superior in gear, it is very difficult to be a "murder machine". All they need to do is keep you from hitting them for 10 seconds and you lose all your momentum.

[jgarib]

Sentinels and PTs an spec into the best interrupt in the game easy. 6 second cooldown>being ranged, easy.

 

We have ok mobility. We can spam snare however so that helps. We can spec into two leaps. What class has two leaps that isn't a JK/SW?

 

My point regarding the leaps was that if you are a marauder, you are Annih specced. Plain and simple. If you aren't, then you have more utility but you've fallen several rungs on the DPS ladder. I haven't seen a single Mara who isn't annih specc unless its for lolz or because they enjoy the challenge/being the black sheep/it fits their idea of who they wan't to be. No one chooses the other two trees to be DPS monsters (currently), therefore it's safe to say, within the context of this thread and Maras being the "DPS kings" that they are restricted to one leap.

 

I'm not saying that Marauders are weak. My point is that Maras aren't the DPS kings unless many factors align. It is easier for these things to happen in PvE than it is in PvP. Against skilled players in PvP, it is difficult to say the least unless you are paired up against a bunch of people who have no idea how your class works or how to play their class effectively in PvP. Essentially, you are unstoppable against a bunch of bads, but just another standard DPS when among equal peers.

 

This is why good players excel and bads do not. Not only is the rotation contextual, requiring constant monitoring, switching of orders, and utilizing anywhere from 5 to 10 skills a minute depending on the fight. But there are also buffs/stacks to monitor in forms of bleeds and form stacks. It's a lot all going on at once!

 

All this will hopefully change in 1.2 when they make the other two trees more viable.

Edited March 16, 2012 by jgarib

[Derian]

I have no problem sticking on them. I have a problem building and maintaining 5 stacks and keeping it there consistently. I can take these folks down, but it requires a 30-60 second investment and a lot of chase.

 

I run up to them and start hitting them, they use KB. I leap back to them and slow, they stun (5s) and LOS so I cant leap. Between the stun and running to them, i've lost all my stacks. I begin building it up again, they crit heal. I force choke after dots are applied, they stun and LOS. Rinse, repeat.

 

Against a good healer, who can LOS and CC, is equally or superior in gear, it is very difficult to be a "murder machine". All they need to do is keep you from hitting them for 10 seconds and you lose all your momentum.

 

After a knockback and a 5 second stun you've already maxxed resolve. Even if you don't have a CC break you should have some resolve left over. If you find yourself in a kited situation use force camo. It will either break snare/root or you will be invul, especially since Sorcs like to throw crushing darkness. Remember LOS is a two way street. You should be LOSing them as well and force them into a position thats more advantageous. Only the most patient and skilled Sorc/Sages that know how resolve properly works should be killing you. Even if they kite you for a little bit you have force fade, valorous call/transendence, LOS and spam snares to control the fight.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Derian

[jgarib]

After a knockback and a 5 second stun you've already maxxed resolve. Even if you don't have a CC break you should have some resolve left over. If you find yourself in a kited situation use force camo. It will either break snare/root or you will be invul, especially since Sorcs like to throw crushing darkness. Remember LOS is a two way street. You should be LOSing them as well and force them into a position thats more advantageous.

 

If you have 10 second gaps between hitting an opponent you need to adjust how you play the class drastically. I've never been kited that long.

 

I never said anything about being killed. I said I lose my 5 stacks of Juyo dropping my DPS significantly. 10% in fact (http://www.torhead.com/ability/3mjRRxN/juyo-form).

 

Also, I wasn't saying that I ABSOLUTELY MUST ALWAYS BE HITTING THE ENEMY. My point was that in order to maintain optimal DPS to where I would classify myself as THE dps on my team, I must maintain my 5 stacks of juyo form. If the situation calls for tactics I dont forsake tactics in order to kill my target... but by doing so I lose claim to being the DPS king, where a TM spamming merc can LOS and TM to hearts content while maintaining the same DPS. Or at the very least it's much easier for them to do so.

 

If I LOS and I don't hit them within 10 seconds of my last hit, there go my stacks. Now I need to spend 5 GCD's building them up again. If they knock me back, and stun me, and run away... thats 5 sec + ~3 sec to run to where they were when they knocked me back plus ~x amount of time to chase them where they went. It can easily surpass 10 seconds. The AOE KB/Root of a specced sage/sorc is the most frustrating skill for me.

 

There have been many times on civil war in mid/voidstar where folks will LOS around pillars. Sure in a straight 1 vs 1 the chances of being kited for long periods are very slim, but it's never 1 vs 1 and while I may be the only one on a healer, they usually have other folks trying to CC me, popping heals on the healer, slowing me, etc.

 

In hutball? forget it. All they need to do is chain knockback me off a catwalk and there goes all my momentum. Its even easier in the situations where the only way for me to get to them in time is to use my one gap closer which requires only one knockback to shut me down.

 

While I don't doubt I have room for improvement, you claiming that it should be rare that a good player can prevent another good player from hitting them for 10 seconds (not every 10 seconds, just one gap is enough) is pretty improbable. It happens. That doesn't mean the fight is over. It means my momentum has been stunted. The Mara would be a DPS BEAST if not for this... I love it. I think its great character design and requires me to keep on my toes and as you suggested above, constantly has me re-evaluating what I must do next.

 

Anyway, this is no longer on track with the discussion of the thread. If you'd like to continue in PM i'd be more than happy to oblige.

 

TL;DR: Maintaining 5 stacks of juyo is a core mechanic behind the DPS of annih specced mara. It is possible for an enemy, who is a good player, to work this mechanic to their benefit. By doing so, it challenges the mara to maintain top DPS. We aren't automatically DPS monsters. It takes a lot of work and skill. We become DPS monsters by default against undergeared/bad players only.

Edited March 16, 2012 by jgarib

[Chaosmagistrate]

best survivability

comparable CC to other classes

best utility

great mobility (12s leap)+utility speed increase

best intrrupts

 

Best -short term survivability. Blanket term of best overall is BS. A Kinetic Shadow has much better long term survivability.

 

Comparable CC to other classes...I wouldn't even compare, as we have zero stuns, zero knockbacks. Depending on Spec, Choke is necessary for DPS uptime, Awe is pretty awesome though.

 

Best Utility...outside of Awing doors and nodes, we have the lowest ability to peel, we are the worst healer/ranged protectors(read peeling). Instead we can maintain good uptime on healers, and are arguably the best caster shut down artists, and thanks to -20% healing debuff, we are definitely a great Main Assist. They're also pretty good ball carriers, at least not the worst, and they're pretty good at defending nodes(not as good as stealthers). Other than using Force Choke and pacify, we cannot save anyone, nor can we control more than one target.

 

I won't argue with great mobility, but that's simply because we have zero ranged CC other than Force Choke and no hard stuns. Without Leap, Maras would be slightly worse than Ops, because at least Ops can stun and keep uptime-we won't go into the other issues of Ops, as that does not pertain to uptime.

 

Best Interrupts-Now you are assuming Anni, which NOT every Mara is. But I can roll with that. PTs who spec 12 pts into Tactics(don't recall Imp name) can get the same 6s interrupt, Pull can be similar to Leap, but is affected by Resolve, and Carbonize and Cryo can also interrupt, but once again on the Resolve, so isolating for sheer capability to interrupt, Anni Maras are in fact the best(but that is reserved for Annihilation ONLY)

 

Papercrafting does not work in MMOs, because you simlpy have to take into account the big picture.

 

A good example would be a lot of people don't treat the 2.5s AoE stun for PTs as an uptime/defensive cooldown tool, because they don't think of it as a way to neutralize everyone around you to buy two globals to kill your target. But in practice, that is what it actually can do. That's why you never isolate the context of abilities, because it's not what the tooltip says, it's what you actually do with it.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Chaosmagistrate

[Chaosmagistrate]

After a knockback and a 5 second stun you've already maxxed resolve. Even if you don't have a CC break you should have some resolve left over. If you find yourself in a kited situation use force camo. It will either break snare/root or you will be invul, especially since Sorcs like to throw crushing darkness. Remember LOS is a two way street. You should be LOSing them as well and force them into a position thats more advantageous. Only the most patient and skilled Sorc/Sages that know how resolve properly works should be killing you. Even if they kite you for a little bit you have force fade, valorous call/transendence, LOS and spam snares to control the fight.

 

Way too many people don't understand that. They tunnel in and get obsessed with the kill.

 

For NOW, wzs revolve around OBJECTIVES. Yes, killing is definitely needed the majority of the time to win said objectives.

 

But....

 

Denial of real estate and interaction is just as key.

 

Forcing a healer out of position from pulling in a Huttball or healing the carrier. Forcing the healer off the point, away from their guard. Shutting down their ranged DPS and forcing them out of their comfort zone can be pretty damn important.

[gibmachine]

What gives you idea you should get ANYTHING in return. Do you want general damage output reduction as a part of the package too?

 

Yeah, cause God forbid that the class that is pure DPS actually does the job it's supposed to when it finally manages to close distance.

[Derian]

Way too many people don't understand that. They tunnel in and get obsessed with the kill.

 

For NOW, wzs revolve around OBJECTIVES. Yes, killing is definitely needed the majority of the time to win said objectives.

 

But....

 

Denial of real estate and interaction is just as key.

 

Forcing a healer out of position from pulling in a Huttball or healing the carrier. Forcing the healer off the point, away from their guard. Shutting down their ranged DPS and forcing them out of their comfort zone can be pretty damn important.

 

Exactly.

[artemsilenkov]

No matter how we say or how we do not.

Owerpower MUST be looked at.

We are owerpowered in 1-1 fights TRUE,

But in organazied pvps maras just a decent toon with no success. This is not a GODMODEBUTTON. Learn the class mechanics. Reroll and you know the truth.

[Derian]

Best -short term survivability. Blanket term of best overall is BS. A Kinetic Shadow has much better long term survivability.

 

Comparable CC to other classes...I wouldn't even compare, as we have zero stuns, zero knockbacks. Depending on Spec, Choke is necessary for DPS uptime, Awe is pretty awesome though.

 

Best Utility...outside of Awing doors and nodes, we have the lowest ability to peel, we are the worst healer/ranged protectors(read peeling). Instead we can maintain good uptime on healers, and are arguably the best caster shut down artists, and thanks to -20% healing debuff, we are definitely a great Main Assist. Other than using Force Choke and pacify, we cannot save anyone, nor can we control more than one target, which is how I view the term utility.

 

I won't argue with great mobility, but that's simply because we have zero ranged CC other than Force Choke and no hard stuns. Without Leap, Maras would be slightly worse than Ops, because at least Ops can stun and keep uptime-we won't go into the other issues of Ops, as that does not pertain to uptime.

 

Best Interrupts-Now you are assuming Anni, which NOT every Mara is. But I can roll with that. PTs who spec 12 pts into Tactics(don't recall Imp name) can get the same 6s interrupt, Pull can be similar to Leap, but is affected by Resolve, and Carbonize and Cryo can also interrupt, but once again on the Resolve, so isolating for sheer capability to interrupt, Anni Maras are in fact the best(but that is reserved for Annihilation ONLY)

 

Papercrafting does not work in MMOs, because you simlpy have to take into account the big picture.

 

A good example would be a lot of people don't treat the 2.5s AoE stun for PTs as an uptime/defensive cooldown tool, because they don't think of it as a way to neutralize everyone around you to buy two globals to kill your target. But in practice, that is what it actually can do. That's why you never isolate the context of abilities, because it's not what the tooltip says, it's what you actually do with it.[

 

The bolded really needs to be emphasized.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Derian

[Temeluchus]

Not everyone, just marauders. Or do you think everyone gets damage immunity skillz eh?

 

 

 

No, but only marauders have immunity to damage skill. When they can conveniently be healed.

 

Trolling wont help you im afraid, try harder.

 

So what kind of spin would you put on the ability to be healed when you stun,CC or KB someone out of range and then either A. heal yourself if capable B. a healer heals you back up?

 

In essence it's the exact same thing, a Mara pops UR, loses 50% of his/her life, either kills his target and runs off to kill again or get healed,kills his target and then gets nuked by a range, doesn't kill his target; a Sorc getting beat on by a Mara, pops whirlwind, Force speed, sits out of range and spams the heals,effectively resetting the fight.

 

It's not an out and out damage immunity ability but it acts in the same manner and provides the same result.

 

You should really learn to contribute more to a discussion or argument than emoticon overusage and troll filled rhetoric.

[MMOgamer]

Another baddie calling for a nerf. You mad mara/sents killed your FOTM Sage?

[artemsilenkov]

it is said that is in not immunity. 1% of dmg and CC is pretty nice here is enough to die.

in case of every team is damaging mara instead of doing ojectives or doing somethitng tactical.

Edited March 16, 2012 by artemsilenkov

[Kryssprolls]

Mara/Sent's "bubble" absorb 90% of incoming damage and is usually popped at low life. Last 5 sec.

 

Nothing to do with Paladin's bubbles which is FULL immunity to damage with no health cost.

 

Put a Mara/Sent with their bubble up against 2/3 opponents and it will die in a couple of seconds, with or without bubble.

 

Yes it will allow a Mara/Sent to finish off one opponent while being at low life instead of dying. And, with the use of a medpack or a pocket healer, it will translate as a 5 secs 90% absorbing shield with nearly no drawback… like a tank guarded and healed by a pocket healer or a healer popping a medpack after an instant heal are also able to take tremendous amount of damages.

 

Yet, it won't change the course of a WZ.

 

Mara/Sent are big dps but that's all they have : I much prefer to fight a Mara than any Sorcerer/Assasin in an Huttball game : their bump and sprint are much more effecive score-wise than having a dps unkillable for 5 sec on 1vs1.

[artemsilenkov]

Mara/Sent's "bubble" absorb 90% of incoming damage and is usually popped at low life. Last 5 sec.

 

Nothing to do with Paladin's bubbles which is FULL immunity to damage with no health cost.

 

Put a Mara/Sent with their bubble up against 2/3 opponents and it will die in a couple of seconds, with or without bubble.

 

Yes it will allow a Mara/Sent to finish off one opponent while being at low life instead of dying. And, with the use of a medpack or a pocket healer, it will translate as a 5 secs 90% absorbing shield with nearly no drawback… like a tank guarded and healed by a pocket healer or a healer popping a medpack after an instant heal are also able to take tremendous amount of damages.

 

Yet, it won't change the course of a WZ.

 

Mara/Sent are big dps but that's all they have : I much prefer to fight a Mara than any Sorcerer/Assasin in an Huttball game : their bump and sprint are much more effecive score-wise than having a dps unkillable for 5 sec on 1vs1.

 

wrong 99%. and this a GODMODE button.

And mara have the BEST ingame defensive CDs and percs and powerfull utilities. FOTM i think. Run in fear lol

Edited March 16, 2012 by artemsilenkov

[Serrowherrow]

wrong 99%. and this a GODMODE button.

And mara have the BEST ingame defensive CDs and percs and powerfull utilities. FOTM i think. Run in fear lol

 

 

"Oh no! That marauder just popped Undying Rage! I wish I could have foreseen this completely unexpected turn of events! I know! I'll try to burst through the 99% damage reduction with my remaining 20% life by running up to him and using my basic spam-attack! It's brilliant! WOW, ***, HE JUST KILLED ME AND TOOK NO DMG OMG NERF."

 

/Derp.

[GrandMike]

You already started a thread for your ideas about Sentinels. I think you're trolling, or just really bad at the game. Please keep those ideas focused. I played Sentinel in closed beta before Zen, Rebuke, Guarded by the Force and the group buffs.

 

I did? Where?

 

It doesnt matter how class was, it matters how class is now. I guess all your QQ back then resultetd in overdid class that needs toning down now.

 

IMO You lack the understanding of the class to really comment on it. We are pure DPS, we cannot Guard, we cannot heal. Guarding and Healing are extremely important. There is nothing more potent than a Healer and his Guard.

 

So, 20% healing debuff/15% healing damage buff is nothing?

50%+ whole team movement speed is nothing?

HoT for whole team is nothing?

Pacify is nothing?

 

Dont know what you are playing but they are all fine utilities that help your team more than guard.

 

Also we have the same interrupt as PT/Vanguards.

 

And leaps built in interrupt is vaporware amirite?

 

When you convenently leave out stuff...ya it doesnt look like much. When you dont...its a quite different story.

Edited March 16, 2012 by GrandMike

[Chaosmagistrate]

I did? Where?

 

It doesnt matter how class was, it matters how class is now. I guess all your QQ back then resultetd in overdid class that needs toning down now.

 

 

 

So, 20% healing debuff/15% healing damage buff is nothing?

50%+ whole team movement speed is nothing?

HoT for whole team is nothing?

Pacify is nothing?

 

Dont know what you are playing but they are all fine utilities that help your team more than guard.

 

 

 

And leaps built in interrupt is vaporware amirite?

 

When you convenently leave out stuff...ya it doesnt look like much. When you dont...its a quite different story.

 

Actually, in Beta, Sentinels were way overboard as soloist classes. Only near the final stage of the betas did the Centering mechanic replace Saber Throw and Force Push. This forced the Maras to play for uptime, and in turn gave them some group utility. This was especially so, prior to Centering Juggs were much better than Maras in most areas, except Watchman/Anni. So they were in fact nerfed in terms of overall control, but gained group buffs.

 

You can't compare the entire Centering Mechanic and Pacify to Guard and Taunt. Centering requires a decent amount of uptime, even with Rebuke bonus and up Watchman(once again, it cannot be assumed that all Maras are Anni). Guard is on perpetually and smart players break and swap Guard on the fly. And then there are Taunts.

 

As for the overall topic of the thread was first initiated concerning how UR is what pushed the Mara into "OP"...that is the crux of what was first being argued, and that is what is being discussed.

 

Now if we are talking class balance entirely...No one on this forum is fully qualified to balance these classes, simply for one reason-no one can honestly be objective.

 

If the topic of discussion is to deviate from the pros and cons of UR into the realm of the entire class in general, then I doubt anyone here is "pro" enough to give any real input. Unless you of course have been invited to be a professional game tester, then I stand corrected.

 

To close, UR is not overpowered. It provides a backloaded way to provide additional uptime. The counters are many and have been explained at least a dozen times in this thread. If the OP refuses to adapt his playstyle for specific ACs, then the issue is not the skill, but the player.

 

Grandmike...It seems your qualms are with the Annihilation Marauder, which anyone with an open mind knows is amongst the top 3 duelist classes, and it doesn't help they were in fact buffed very slightly with the Searing Saber fix for PvP burst, but lost some ground in PvP and PvE sustained.

 

If you come from WoW, then maybe you might understand this analogy. Warlocks, in TBC, were amongst the best duelist class. But as you put them into teams, they got progressively weaker. In 2s, they were very strong, 3s they are ok, and 5s, they only fit in very specific comps. I'm not saying Maras suck in groups, but their strengths and weaknesses are much more easily noticed in group combat.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Chaosmagistrate

[GrandMike]

I'm not saying Maras suck in groups, but their strengths and weaknesses are much more easily noticed in group combat.

 

Yah, they get better and better in groups. In fact they are preferable to any other DPS in groups.

 

They are not "fine" lol

 

Pro enough? What do you think "pros" do? They sit and play the game just like us and *consideralbly* shorter than us.

 

In fact this is 101 PvP, not some super advanced gaming theory.

Edited March 16, 2012 by GrandMike

[Derian]

I did? Where?

 

It doesnt matter how class was, it matters how class is now. I guess all your QQ back then resultetd in overdid class that needs toning down now.

I was a major advocate of the Sentinel/Marauder class being fine. Everyone else thought it was the weakest class and UP because they weren't good at the class. I didn't want them to get a massive buff, only to get a hard nerf later. Basically you are quite wrong.

 

 

So, 20% healing debuff/15% healing damage buff is nothing?

50%+ whole team movement speed is nothing?

HoT for whole team is nothing?

Pacify is nothing?

 

Dont know what you are playing but they are all fine utilities that help your team more than guard.

 

 

 

And leaps built in interrupt is vaporware amirite?

 

When you convenently leave out stuff...ya it doesnt look like much. When you dont...its a quite different story.

 

You just need to learn to deal with them buddy. All class has positives. When you spin it in such a subjective tone I can make anything sound OP.

[GrandMike]

You just need to learn to deal with them buddy. All class has positives. When you spin it in such a subjective tone I can make anything sound OP.

 

No, you cant lol. This is not subjective, its called analytical approach, and i was schooled for 18 years to consider things objectively and analytically.

 

You dont want balance, we get it, and it will be bad for pvp, thats what you dont get.

Edited March 16, 2012 by GrandMike

[Derian]

No, you cant lol. This is not subjective, its called analytical approach, and i was schooled for 18 years to consider things objectively and analytically.

 

You dont want balance, we get it, and it will be bad for pvp, thats what you dont get.

 

Did your 18 years of schooling teach you that you need actual numbers to analyze anything? There is no combat log. Meh, back to your pity party I suppose.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Derian

[GrandMike]

Did your 18 years of schooling teach you that you need actual numbers to analyze anything? There is no combat log. Meh, back to your pity party I suppose.

 

This is not about numbers. This is basic interdependence/usfulness/reliance of various classes in groups. Once you get THAT right you can procede to numbers.

 

I dont care for 1vs1, its irrelevant for group play.

Edited March 16, 2012 by GrandMike

[Raansu]

Why do you guys even continue to respond to GrandMike? Let the thread die already. He's a bad player and doesn't know how to play the game, end of story, let the thread die.

[AGoldCrayon]

I did? Where?

 

It doesnt matter how class was, it matters how class is now. I guess all your QQ back then resultetd in overdid class that needs toning down now.

 

 

When you convenently leave out stuff...ya it doesnt look like much. When you dont...its a quite different story.

 

It is now, really? I thought this whole thread was about how marauders are going to be, since the entire focus was on rated warzones, and most of the marauders viewpoints have been dismissed out of hand because 'this is now, but once rateds come...'

 

And you chastising someone for leaving out something? Oh man that is just hilarious.

 

 

This is not about numbers. This is basic interdependence/usfulness/reliance of various classes in groups. Once you get THAT right you can procede to numbers.

 

I dont care for 1vs1, its irrelevant for group play.

 

Actually, analysis is about numbers. Analysis without numbers is just speculation and theory crafting.

Edited March 16, 2012 by AGoldCrayon