Ghostcrawler offers some food for thought....

[Dahkot]

its called market forces. developers create what people demand. other games that are not in demand are cancelled/never develop. Eve's 300k subs is not going to inspire many developers to copy their game.

 

Those 300k subs make it bigger than most any monthly paying game around.

 

EQ (best ever to me) has finally died of old age or beginning to , all the other easy mode games other than WoW (and vanilla WoW / vanilla AV - world PVP at Tarren Mill etc is nothing like the current WoW) have less than that -

 

Could be there is a market for non linear , cap city/spaceport hub exists to just transport to instances is not the game style , game is there.

 

Just needs to be done right , not Vanguard train wreck launch style.

 

EVE is long running and slowly grew in pop , not flash in the pan and died like most every other mmorpg out there since original WoW.

 

Reskin original EQ with DX11 graphics , make it pre PoP and leave everything else alone , and I'd feel you easily have 300-500k + instantly , and long time subscribers alone with that.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Dahkot

[TUXs]

Wait...why is there a W0W article here?!

[Zakua]

EVE is sand box and I still play, had up to 4 accounts , (2 now). Not playing EVE much since TOR came out =).

 

Explore, yes I dont feel there is much in the way of exploration in TOR.

 

I hate to sound like a broken record but SWG has some of it right...not all but some.....in that respect so does TOR...hmph.

 

One thing I will say is people complain no matter what. One group will be pissed while the other smiles.

 

More exploration

Deeper crafting ( I dont even craft but...)

Tie the instancing down somehow...make it feel like one cohesive experience.

 

 

Anyways, some real good talks going on in here.

[Tarka]

OK, you obviously haven't seen the ORIGINAL film, before the CGI beak and tentacles were added in, post production...

 

Actually I did, but think that the most recent additions to improve the Sarlacc Pit gave the thing a bit of life (even if it did turn out to look a bit like the plant from "The Little Shop of Horrors").

[Tarka]

Wait...why is there a W0W article here?!

 

Because it fits the context of what is being discussed: What a major player in the MMO industry feels they did right and wrong, and how that equates to SWTOR.

 

Only stupidity and blind arrogance would ignore possible insights given by the competition. Especially when said competition is actually the most successful competition in the industry and the co-founders of Bioware hold it in high regard.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Tarka]

Overall, sounds like they are doing a lot of soul searching over there. I still won't be going back while this game is going strong...but there are defintiely lessons for Bioware to take from this.

 

I agree. Regardless of any ulterior motives there may be for posting such a blog, the fact is that the competition would be stupid and arrogant to ignore Blizzard's thoughts about their own game.

[Tarka]

I may be a Bioware fan, but you have to admit: Bioware understands this even better. 4 months into the game, and we're already looking at the second content patch. That's quite a bit faster than Actiblizzion has ever been.

 

I believe Bioware actually previously admitted that the content we have been / are getting has been worked on over the last year or so. meaning that a great deal of work was probably done prior to launch.

 

So I'm not sure that the assumption that Bioware are churning content out faster than others, is actually correct. I suppose the true test will be in a few months time when there is greater likelihood that the content being released was created "from scratch" during the post-launch period.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Tarka]

The problem is I am not sure if the Hero engine can do things like continents and large zones with lots of players in each zone, honestly if SWTOR had a places like Ironforge, when it was the place to be it would probably crash the server.

 

I think Bioware actually designed SWTOR to segregate players into smaller groups so that the game engine can handle it...I could be wrong but it really does appear that way. I have never seen more then 100 players in one area, have you? I don't even think I can recall 100 in one area I don't think I have ever seen three digits...

 

Just found an article on GamaSutra that was written back in 2009:

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=22883

 

Simutronics has announced that its HeroEngine MMO development platform now supports more than 100,000 concurrent users on a single shard.

 

The company refers to it as its "Seamless World" technology, and says it allows developers to connect several areas to create one large space without boundaries.

 

"There is no limit on how large a single seamless world can be," Simutronics explains, adding that the worlds themselves can be instanced as needed for specific requirements. HeroEngine is currently being used by BioWare on its Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO.

 

Simutronics also says it will continue developing scalability features between worlds to increase the maximum capacity per shard over time.

 

Of course, the proverbial "fly in the ointment" is the already known fact that the version of the HeroEngine used by Bioware maybe somewhat different to the version of the HeroEngine cited by Simultronics in 2009, and thus is different to the version of the HeroEngine that is being supplied now by Idea Fabrik (the new owners of the HeroEngine technology).

 

This is because when Bioware bought the licence to use the engine, it had bits missing and thus wasn't complete. Bioware then parted company from Simultronics after that and did some modifications of their own to the engine. So I guess only the devs fully know the capabilities of the version of the engine that they are using.

 

My gut feeling is that the HeroEngine isn't running at full capacity in regards to limitations imposed by the engine in regards to instance size or populations per zone. In actual fact, it is quite likely that such limitations are being restricted by the inherent limitations of the hardware that Bioware are using.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[souloferdrick]

That wasnt Ghostcrawler talking. That was him abbreviating what players were saying for months and months while he posted in opposition to those very thoughts. But we've come to that point again where Blizz wants to charge you top dollar for another reskin of the same old tripe so he has to pretend he cares and listens to you.

 

This way, he can tell you you are having a truly new and unique experience and you will believe it even though you aren't doing anything new at all.

[Tarka]

That wasnt Ghostcrawler talking. That was him abbreviating what players were saying for months and months while he posted in opposition to those very thoughts. But we've come to that point again where Blizz wants to charge you top dollar for another reskin of the same old tripe so he has to pretend he cares and listens to you.

 

This way, he can tell you you are having a truly new and unique experience and you will believe it even though you aren't doing anything new at all.

 

Well, it's quite possible that GC is just saying what he thinks people want to here. On the other hand, there may be a certain degree of honesty and truth in his words in order to give credance to any possible motivations that may have originally driven him to post in the first place: i.e. "damage control" due to the drop in subs.

 

Although, I don't think it's fair to automatically assume that he's just telling a complete pack of lies. Of course, like the old saying goes: "the proof of the pudding will be in the eating". By that I mean, if MoP expansion just turns out to be a complete mess and doesn't live up to what GC has said, then obviously he wasn't being entirely honest.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Tarka]

He must be a massive klutz because he's smashed a lot of legs and arms ever since he became lead developer.

 

That's what happens when you put a marine biologist to be a freakin lead dev.

 

Well, stranger things have happened. For instance, the two co-founders of Bioware were actually medical doctors.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[souloferdrick]

Well, it's quite possible that GC is just saying what he thinks people want to here. On the other hand, there may be a certain degree of honesty and truth in his words in order to give credance to any possible motivations that may have originally driven him to post in the first place: i.e. "damage control" due to the drop in subs.

 

Although, I don't think it's fair to automatically assume that he's just telling a complete pack of lies. Of course, like the old saying goes: "the proof of the pudding will be in the eating". By that I mean, if MoP expansion just turns out to be a complete mess and doesn't live up to what GC has said, then obviously he wasn't being entirely honest.

 

GC is the same guy that, with a straight face, will tell you standing in fire and standing in a bubbling puddle of green stuff are two entirely different experiences in their gimmick 101 raid scheme.

 

Its just a rehash of the same rhetoric Ive been reading for years. And he can get away with it because people are just too afraid to admit theyve been duped over and over again.

 

Frankly, Im beginning to wonder if MMO aficionados will ever get it. Players point out weaknesses, bugs, exploits, issues, etc and get mocked derisively only to have their own words shot back in their faces from a dev like its some kind of revelation.

[Tarka]

Btw, just to provide a bit of "balance" to the discussion, Massively has just published an article detailing an interview they had with James Ohlen in the last day or so:

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/03/13/epic-in-scope-swtors-james-ohlen-explains-plans-for-the-future/

 

For all his little "faux pas" prior to launch, I actually enjoy hearing Jame's words. And he offers a bit of honesty in this article:

 

"The number of level 50s is a lot higher than we thought it was going to be. Therefore, our group finder has become a much higher priority. It's essentially our highest-priority feature that is not going in 1.2. If there is one feature that 1.3 will have, it will be the group finder.

 

"A lot of our feedback from the level 50s revolves around the dungeon finder. We have two operations, four level 50 flashpoints, and the hardmodes for all of them. We have a ton of PvE high-level content, but our metrics show that a lot of it hasn't been consumed by level 50s. Dungeon finder is the key there. That's one of the reasons that PvP is so popular because PvP is so much easier to get into than PvE. Once I started getting that data I was like, 'Oh, OK.' I knew that group finder was important. When leveling up, like we found during beta, you don't really need the group finder, but when you reach the max level, it becomes very important."

 

It's good to hear that James can openly admit where he feels Bioware went wrong.

 

Of course, that shouldn't automatically let Bioware "off the hook" so to speak, in regards to past, present and future issues. But nevertheless, his words offer a tiny bit of hope in regards to the future of SWTOR.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Lethality]

 

I agree somewhat. But it also seems to depend a little on the theme of the planet. Voss has a very open and explorable feel to it, for example.

But how "explorable" can you make a city planet? One block of streets after another, so yes, things will quickly feel linear. Nar Shaddaa definitely has too many "dead ends", where you can reach places only in one specific way. Corellia on the other hand is pretty well done. Maybe still a few roadblocks too many, but it is actually pretty explorable. That could be improved, but it's already rather well done.

 

City planets are indeed hard, but... I think separating the "zones" on them was one of the big mistakes... for pete sakes, let me wander somewhere I wasn't necessarily supposed to be yet. THAT is what makes them feel linear. Look at Silvermoon City in WoW. A good example of a large and interesting city with several "zones" attached to it for questing, etc. And eminently explorable and non-linear feeling.

 

 

And it took Actiblizzion more than 5 years to realize that, and to be honest, they still got it wrong. Compared to Vanilla, there's VERY little to actually go for: every activity ends up in the exact same gear grind where every other activity ends up as well: either raid or PvP, or get lost. They know they're losing faith from more and more players who aren't interrested in either, so they keep tossing them bones now and then. But the meat that was once on those bones still goes to Raiding and PvP.

 

Which makes it all the more puzzling that BioWare copied the end game gear grind from WoW.

 

I think Blizzard will surprise some people with end game progression options in MoP. You'll know more Monday

 

 

 

I'm still not convinced on the player base being "split up". They're split up by level across the planets, but that's about it. And there really isn't much reason for a lvl 50 to go to Nar Shaddaa, except maybe on some companion-mission. But to be honest, a levelcapped character having no reason to go to Westfall has never been an issue either, has it?

 

That's what's odd... it felt like it was attached to the world I was in, so I COULD go back there. It's just an intangible thing.

 

I think treating each planet as a "zone" especially in a linear progression path with never going back for different levels is one of the design decisions I don't like the most. If there has to be levels, why not make Tatooine have level 25-30, 38-42 and 48-50 areas on it? Multiple reasons and times to go back, etc.

 

And lots not even get started that although the Eternity Vault exists on Belsavis, I can't get there by traveling to Belsavis 0.0

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, does WoW have companion-affection? There's a lot of potential to that game mechanic for TOR. Bioware could simply raise the maximum amount of affection points to 20,000 and have it raised less through purchasable gifts or repeatable conversations, but make the actually working gifts harder to aquire through playable missions instead, both solo and group missions. I half suspect that that was the initial idea, but was deemed "too grindy". At the same time, I bet something like this will be (re)implemented in the future. First get people hooked, then give them a grind when they get bored. I for one am very happy that there's no such thing as factions in this game. I was really amazed at first that they weren't present, but found I prefer their absence.

 

I think a companion-level "reputation" system is too limiting. First, it's tied to companions that you only use when solo questing and many people (including myself) despise. It would be more interesting story-wise to earn favor with a splinter group of Grey Jedi on a remote region of Tython - to help or hinder their actions - and be rewarded with spoils or battles unique to those choices. We could get new locations, new architecture, etc. But with a companion? None of that.

 

 

 

I may be a Bioware fan, but you have to admit: Bioware understands this even better. 4 months into the game, and we're already looking at the second content patch. That's quite a bit faster than Actiblizzion has ever been.

 

I would argue content patch here doesn't mean what it does in WoW. In WoW content patches are big, world-progressing story arcs. Here, they are a Flashpoint or an Operation here and there... content, yes. But not on the same scale. In all fairness to BioWare, Blizzard did the same type of thing at launch. But BioWare has had 7 years of watching Blizzard improve and how to do it right.

 

 

 

It is, but keep in mind, WoW is WoW, TOR is TOR, and I rather see it stay that way. I played WoW for years, but I rather not see TOR go the downhill track that WoW took, with its everchanging game phylosophies. And with every change Actiblizzion offered to stop people from leaving, it turned out the same: too little, too late. They definitely were on the right track in Vanilla and in early TBC. But after that, they p-ed off one group of players after another with their everchanging "focus". Very few ex-WoW players EVER return. The few that do after being promised that things changed for the better quit after only a few hours again, because those "changes" are tattered band-aids that can't even hold the scraps together.

 

I think most ex-WoW players return, actually. Cataclysm was on many levels the best WoW ever. But rose-tinted glasses keep people from seeing that.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Lethality

[Anathar]

I find it hard to care about or pay attention to anything Ghostcrawler says, honestly.

 

that guy condescends to anything and everything anybody says.

 

got a dissenting pov? *boom* condescention and a forum ban. while telling you were wrong for ever having a thought to begin with, let alone having the audacity to disagree with "the almighty greg".

 

 

but one thing this and the cata xpac of wow do suffer from is linear gameplay and the fluff of an arbitrary design decision to drag out the lvling process. im speaking of the "bonus" quests we get every time we walk a few feet into a new area or kill a new npc type. its just boring and the devs should have known better.

 

its like going to get a drink and someone else telling you "oh... while youre up get me something, and take the trash out, and wash the dishes, and feed the dog too"

Edited March 13, 2012 by Anathar

[Tarka]

GC is the same guy that, with a straight face, will tell you standing in fire and standing in a bubbling puddle of green stuff are two entirely different experiences in their gimmick 101 raid scheme.

 

Its just a rehash of the same rhetoric Ive been reading for years. And he can get away with it because people are just too afraid to admit theyve been duped over and over again.

 

Frankly, Im beginning to wonder if MMO aficionados will ever get it. Players point out weaknesses, bugs, exploits, issues, etc and get mocked derisively only to have their own words shot back in their faces from a dev like its some kind of revelation.

 

Well, of course, we should never completely believe everything a Game Dev says. All too often whatever comes out of their mouth is primarily driven to generate and/or maintain a decent level of interest in the game. They are like Politicians in that respect.

 

But still, the comparisons between Blizzards game and SWTOR are hard to miss, so when a Blizzard dev cites a list of things they feel they did right and wrong, one naturally wonders if Bioware have done something similar.

[Mezla]

GC is a hack that should've never been a game designer. It is really sad that he still has no idea what is actually wrong with Cataclysm. Why would anyone believe that he won't screw up anything he touches is beyond me.

[Tarka]

City planets are indeed hard, but... I think separating the "zones" on them was one of the big mistakes... for pete sakes, let me wander somewhere I wasn't necessarily supposed to be yet. THAT is what makes them feel linear. Look at Silvermoon City in WoW. A good example of a large and interesting city with several "zones" attached to it for questing, etc. And eminently explorable and non-linear feeling.

 

Agreed. When you compare the area of landmass required for the quests, to the total landmass surface area on any one planet, the amounts are very similar in many cases (althought not all). Whereas if we look at some of the pre-2004 MMO's which, weren't as heavily populated with quests and missions, the difference in surface areas between the two are quite different indeed. As a result of deadlines, the development of SWTORs landmasses was possibly distilled down to providing just enough "base essential" landmass to cater for content for leveling. And not much more.

 

Of course, we also mustn't forget that "landmass" isn't the only type of "virtual environment" to consider when discussing the possibilities of exploration in MMO's. Exploration is, after all, often 3 dimensional.

 

By this I mean there are 2 or more additional types of environment that can assist with giving players the feeling of "freedom":

1. The ability to explore in water (i.e. swim).
   
2. Space travel and exploration.
   

Unfortunately, right now, whereas WoW offers players the ability to do one of those things, SWTOR cannot offer either.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[souloferdrick]

But still, the comparisons between Blizzards game and SWTOR are hard to miss, so when a Blizzard dev cites a list of things they feel they did right and wrong, one naturally wonders if Bioware have done something similar.

 

I don't know if they look at it from a right or wrong paradigm. I think they look at where their opportunities are.

[Tarka]

I don't know if they look at it from a right or wrong paradigm. I think they look at where their opportunities are.

 

Perhaps. But one thing is for sure, the co-founders of Bioware hold WoW is high regard:

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/World-of-Warcraft-SWTOR-Greg-Zeschuk-Mike-Morhaime-MMORPG,12174.html

 

Thursday during the keynote panel at the DICE Summit in Las Vegas, BioWare's Greg Zeschuk admitted that Blizzard's World of Warcraft has established MMOG standards in which BioWare will follow with Star Wars: The Old Republic.

 

"It is a touchstone," Zeschuk told the audience. "It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb. If you have established standards, WoW established them."

 

Now, perhaps it was ultimately a poor choice of words, but that last sentence that makes me kinda nervous. It's one thing to acknowledge how a certain product has set standards and expectation levels, but it's another to consider deviation from those standards as being automatically "dumb".

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[WilHyral]

Ghostcrawler had a pretty big hand in ruining that game, and it's a symptom of desperation to volunteer his inside take on it while he's still in their employ. Besides that he was condescending and stubborn about his upgrades.

 

In other words, I'd literally rather hear from any other dev in the business than Ghostcrawler.

[souloferdrick]

 

"Thursday during the keynote panel at the DICE Summit in Las Vegas, BioWare's Greg Zeschuk admitted that Blizzard's World of Warcraft has established MMOG standards in which BioWare will follow with Star Wars: The Old Republic.

 

"It is a touchstone," Zeschuk told the audience. "It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb. If you have established standards, WoW established them."

 

Now, perhaps it was ultimately a poor choice of words, but that last sentence that makes me kinda nervous. It's one thing to acknowledge how a certain product has set standards and expectation levels, but it's another to consider deviation from those standards as being automatically "dumb".

 

I'm sure there's some layers to it but essentially what he's referring too is: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

And anyone who does their own thinking knows Blizzard gets way too much credit. They took an already successful formula (and lore essentially) and made it more accessible. Popularized the genre blah blah. All of which is just a really nice way of saying 'dumbed it down for everyone'.

 

Edit: And once you start down that path theres only one way it goes.

Edited March 13, 2012 by souloferdrick

[chop-encore]

Another one (of many) failures in SWTOR - They use mural backdrops in every world.

 

I would much rather drive my speeder to some unclimbable mountain in the distance than constantly looking at some dead mural never changing. Take Hoth for example, the mountains in the distance are just static images. Such an uninspired world, I expected more

[Tarka]

I'm sure there's some layers to it but essentially what he's referring too is: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

And anyone who does their own thinking knows Blizzard gets way too much credit. They took an already successful formula (and lore essentially) and made it more accessible. Popularized the genre blah blah. All of which is just a really nice way of saying 'dumbed it down for everyone'.

 

To some degree, I agree with you. WoW's formula isn't totally of it's own making. Blizzard borrowed the concept from previously launched titles. However, one cannot ignore the fact that it did add certain levels to the gameplay that many titles at that time did not have: for instance, the sheer amount of "quests".

 

Unfortunatley for the industry, a lot of investors and devs look at WoW and can only see the dollar signs, convinced that if that formula worked for WoW, then it can work again for them. But they seem to forget that WoW popularised it because no other had gone to those same lengths before. In other words, it was in a unique situation to exploit a "niche". However, that cannot be said for the newer competition, a lot of which flopped because they weren't in the same position as WoW was / is.

[Sirsri]

To some degree, I agree with you. WoW's formula isn't totally of it's own making. Blizzard borrowed the concept from previously launched titles. However, one cannot ignore the fact that it did add certain levels to the gameplay that many titles at that time did not have: for instance, the sheer amount of "quests".

 

Unfortunatley for the industry, a lot of investors and devs look at WoW and can only see the dollar signs, convinced that if that formula worked for WoW, then it can work again for them. But they seem to forget that WoW popularised it because no other had gone to those same lengths before. In other words, it was in a unique situation to exploit a "niche". However, that cannot be said for the newer competition, a lot of which flopped because they weren't in the same position as WoW was / is.

 

WoW Innovated everywhere. When everyone else had discrete 'zones' they had a mostly connected world, that you could cross a 'zone' without a loading screen. (technical innovation)

 

They had quests, you could track! Not quite the first guys to do this, but when WoW launched this was still a relatively new capability in video games.

 

They didn't have a death penalty. (Convenience innovation)

 

Most gear was BoP but had repair costs (learned else where, but this was a cash sink with an item sink as well, which worked out decently)

 

Specs sort of clarified and formalized (badly) some things that were happening with AA points in EQ that sort of thing.

 

Not that I'm a huge fan of Pandas, but blizzard definitely know their market and they have reams of data they can pour over to figure out what works, what doesn't, what people like, and people don't. That doesn't apply universally (since people who don't like wow might like something else that they don't ever get data on), but a lot of what they say is enormously insightful into how you should be thinking about problems. Not necessarily solving them, but recognizing where systems and designs are cracking and completely failing.