Mirialol Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 (edited) Hey, Luciela here: I stopped posting in this forum for a long time. I read somewhere patch 1.2 preview that bioware will be changing (probably buffing) expertise so that PvP and PvE gears will be even more incompatible. After reading that, I'd have to stress that: splitting PvP / PvE gear will IRREVERSIBLY damage this game. Making PvP and PvE incompatible with each other itemwise, will also further fuel the schism between PvP and PvE community. Many players tend to focus largely on progressing in either PVP or PVE, and are unwilling to invest in the less favorable gear. (I.E. I mainly play pvp. do operation in pvp gear 'for fun') PVP/PVE gear incompatibility will further cause characters to be "specialized" in PvP or PvE. Since PVE gears will perform poorly in PVP, PVEers will be discouraged from playing PVP, and vice versa. This divide will be irreversible, since most PVPers will end up hating PVE, while PVEers will end up hating PVP. In long story short, you plan to force players into dividing between PVP and PVE, and only let them play "half the game". Exact same thing is what happened in WoW: Remember in vanilla and burning crusade WoW, TOP pve guilds in the world also ran the top pvp teams? If you know any names, guilds such as Nihilum and SK Gaming excelled in both pvp and pve, with arena teams in SK top 200 arena list, blizzcon, MLG, and world first kills on virtually all bosses. Today, not only is such a thing unimaginable, but also there is so much hate between PvP and PvE community. So many posts scream "shut up pvp guy" or "pve is killing pvp" - sometimes I wonder how they even tolerate playing the same game with one another. How did this all happen? It is because of resilience (same stat as expertise in SWTOR). TIMELINE: 1. Vanilla WoW - complete lack of resilience. Most players participate in both pve and pvp. 2. In the burning crusade expansion, resilience is introduced. However, TBC resilience only reduced damage from DOT and criticals, and was nowhere as good as it is today. This therefore made PvP gears subpar for raiding. However, (since resilience wasn't that great), some PvE gear gave large advantage in arena, and thought by some to be "required" for competitive PVP. However, even this disadvantage wasn't as big as you think. One of my high school friends and his brother who played in BG9 ran the highest rated rogue + disc priest 2v2 in the world, with ZERO PvE gear. All other rogues they faced at their ratings were loaded with pve gears and dual warglaives of azzinoth (rogue were one of the more PVE gear dependent classes in TBC) 3. In wrath of the lich king expansion, blizzard completely overhauls resilience. It is now completely impossible to play competitively using PvE gears in PvP and vice versa. WoW community [permanently] splits into PVE and PVP. Most of the PvP imbalances are largely ignored throughout the expansion ("resilience will fix it" mentality by developers). 4. Over the years, Blizzard patches mostly according to numbers generated in PvE. Results: even more class imbalance in PvP. Animosity between pvp and pve communities further increases. 5. Fueled by schism between PvP / PvE and exacerbated by imbalance issues, PvP participation in wow declines DRAMATICALLY over time. If you want to see the statistics, it is as following. Note: Gladiator = assigned to top 0.5% team on ladder. End of season 4 (end of TBC expansion), in BG9 there were 235 gladiator teams for 2v2, 92 gladiators in 3v3, 27 gladiators in 5v5. In comparison, end of season 10 (cataclysm expansion), in BG9 there were 44 gladiator teams in 3v3 (90% which were ebay carries, or wintrades), and 9 in 5v5. You must also consider the fact that most 2v2 players switched over to 3v3 after the bracket was removed in S6. Source: arenajunkies Will this really happen to SWTOR? WoW and SWTOR are different games - no one can predict what will happen to this game. Right now, I wear full battlemasters gear and have no problem running hard mode operations. PvE gears are also largely useable in PvP too, as long as one has 400+ expertise. Apparently, for whatever reason bioware doesn't want that, which I guess furthers their trend of copying only the bad part of wow, while ignoring the good part in an effort to appear different :/. A piece of advice from Luciela - don't make PvE and PvP gears incompatible. if you want to make top tier pvp and nightmare mode operations mutually exclusive, current state of expertise should suffice however, they shouldnt forcefully split entire casual swtor population into pvp or pve specialized PVERs are the one that wants "gear progression" what PVPERs need is COMPETITION. gladiators / rank1's in WoW didn't stay in the game b/c of progression in item. they stayed because of neverending competition KEPT THEM GOING. do you think players such as sodah venruki or snutz wouldve played WoW for all these years without rated arenas? Edited March 10, 2012 by Mirialol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laran Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Now try taking your BM gear into 16 man nightmare mode and tell me you keep up....cause you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Fueled by schism between PvP / PvE and exacerbated by imbalance issues, PvP participation in wow declines DRAMATICALLY over time. This is wrong. Participation in WoW ITSELF is what declined dramatically over time. Not because of some fantasy PvE/PvP player divide. Obviously with less people playing the game itself, PvP participation would fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirialol Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 Now try taking your BM gear into 16 man nightmare mode and tell me you keep up....cause you don't. this is why they shouldn't even have expertise it 'prohibits' people from enjoying both parts of the game. what kind of game company would do taht? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenocdier Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Cause having 2 sets of gear(one for pve and one for pvp) is insanely hard to do.... Dam lazy ppl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirialol Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 (edited) This is wrong. Participation in WoW ITSELF is what declined dramatically over time. Not because of some fantasy PvE/PvP player divide. Obviously with less people playing the game itself, PvP participation would fall. only pvp participation fell overall subscription number grew from TBC to cataclysm in ONE SEASON after resilience overhaul, arena participation fell by 60% season5 BG9 gladiators: 106 in 2v2, 40 in 3v3, and 9 in 5v5. Edited March 10, 2012 by Mirialol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirialol Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 Cause having 2 sets of gear(one for pve and one for pvp) is insanely hard to do.... Dam lazy ppl its not that it's hard to do. its b/c they dont WANT to. since most will end up hating pvp or pve anyways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MightyHalo Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I'm here for the PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleeptastic Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I didn't play much BC but top pve guilds in wow were top pvp guilds in wow because top pve guilds in wow were the ones with all the gear. I know my rogue in a mix of T1/T2 was guaranteed 2 shot in 1.5 seconds vs any cloth in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir-Coffee Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Agreed with this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRINnBARRETT Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I don't care to raid so as long as the pvp gear can get me through HM flashpoints & solo content, I'm fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metallistic Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 PvP gear should stay in PvP, PvE gear should stay in PvE. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabredance Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 (edited) Bad enough i need to do HM PvE one day for my Rakata Adrenal/Stim. Edited March 10, 2012 by Sabredance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iloveicarly Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 this is why they shouldn't even have expertise it 'prohibits' people from enjoying both parts of the game. what kind of game company would do taht? I agree i want to pvp and do pve I like them both just make pvp gear slightly better in pve and pve gear slightly better in pvp, but pve gear is better in pve and pvp gear is better at pvp I think this would help a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenocdier Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 its not that it's hard to do. its b/c they dont WANT to. since most will end up hating pvp or pve anyways If they don't want to do do pvp (or pve) y does having gear just for pvp or just for pve a problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adzzy Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 PvP = competition, you want people as normalized as possible PvE = progression, you want people going tier to tier as they push upwards throught he content, no normalization is required. Making the gear the same through such vastly different models is a recipe for fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirialol Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 PvP gear should stay in PvP, PvE gear should stay in PvE. That's it. if you want to make top tier pvp and nightmare mode operations mutually exclusive, current state of expertise should suffice however, they shouldnt forcefully split entire casual swtor population into pvp and pve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elorei Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I don't want to do pve content. It is the same in this game as every game like it before it. I want to pvp. I like pvp because the players I face are more dynamic (most of the time) than some scripted encounter that follows the same rules every time you do it. Allowing pve gear to outshine pvp gear (or even have a place in pvp) forces me to do pve to compete in pvp. I really do not want this. I can't imagine slugging through the ops and HMs over and over doing the exact same thing just to have the gear I need to be viable in pvp. Sure, I play huttball over and over, but it is always different. Ops bossses are always the same. Always. It is fun a few times, then its stale, to me, anyway. I know that is a fun aspect for many, and that is great! I am glad the game has an outlet for those people's passions. Mine, however, is pvp. I want to log in for a bit, pvp with all 4 of my pvp characters, do the dailies, see who is playing, and crush some skulls (or get crushed, depending on who I am facing). The day I have to trudge through Ops every week to be able to compete in pvp is the day I hang it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganjimon Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 resilience/expertise is the worst thing that can happen to an mmo... this is just another reason not sub for this game ever again. pvp was horrible and unbalanced as it is, this will just turn bad pvp experience into nightmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirialol Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 If they don't want to do do pvp (or pve) y does having gear just for pvp or just for pve a problem some ppl do both i have friends that do pve, and sometimes they message me for their operation (i don't roll on gears since im full BM) likewise im sure a lot of pvers occasionally queue WZ out of boredom or to play with friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruit_Salad Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Expertise is nice and it keeps the pve gear out of dominating the pvp and the pvp gear out of dominating the pve. you already cant just go into a hard-mode ops or whatever with pvp gear. either the guild will say no go do regulars and get your columni or you will wipe (dps is a little more forgiving of course) The gear is already split, they are just making it more lucrative to be geared by the stuff your doing to do the stuff you want to do in the future. we'll still be able to do ops and things with partial pvp sets, and partial pve people will still not completely suck on the pvp side. it will just be harder to do the top level content if you haven't done the bottom level content. which makes sense.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novare Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I dont know if you are purposefully missing the whole point they try to make them mutually exclusive or what. The best gear in the game under your rules would have to be obtained thru both exclusive pvping and pveing. You do this and raiders will whine welfare gear. If you only allow best gear to be obtained thru pve and you lose all pvpers who hate scripted encounters and whine that they get killed, not by skill, but because they have better gear not obtained thru pvp. The real solution is to keep pve gear as is and the minute you enter a wz everyone is in identical gear based on class and spec. this dont help world pvp, but well, there is none. IMO pvp should never be a gear grind, you should do it because you like to do it and rated wz's will give pvpers thier ranking system to achieve and be proud of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threskov Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I pvp'ed enough to get 3 characters to battlemasters and 2 of those also own a full rakata set. I enjoy both part of the game. Why cant you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirialol Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 I pvp'ed enough to get 3 characters to battlemasters and 2 of those also own a full rakata set. I enjoy both part of the game. Why cant you? some ppl have job / school / i dont care about pve enough beyond playing occasionally with my friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illidor Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 (edited) The "resilience overhaul" didn't cause the dramatic drop in arena participation in WotLK. Rating requirements on every single piece of PvP gear did. I also don't see where you are getting this assumption BioWare somehow wants to make PvE completely useless in PvP and vice versa. The only thing they've said is that they're going to adjust the diminishing returns on Expertise to ensure it is still worth stacking with the new tier of gear. Even right now, a mix of Battlemaster and Rakata is in some cases BETTER for PvP than full Battlemaster gear. I hope you can agree that an optimal gearset for PvP should be entirely composed of PvP gear, and the same thing goes for PvE gear and operations/flashpoints. That's all they want to ensure, nothing more. Edited March 10, 2012 by Illidor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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