Dissolution Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 A gear progression like PvE does not work for player vs player. That is what people are trying to communicate to you. It is an entirely different dynamic. In PvE your opponents get progressively more difficult and it is almost statistically impossible to beat the advantages (mob health, dps, burst etc) that these more difficult mobs have without giving the player advantages in stats and mitigation. In PvP your opponents can learn and adapt to your strategies and beat you, but not if you have a ridiculous advantage in mitigation, healing and dps. If you want a sense of progress, well they are implementing cosmetic changes AND BONUS the ability to tweak your endgame armor stats to suit a specific build and role that you like to play, but they are leveling the playing field by giving everyone the opportunity to enjoy the same bonus to mitigation, dps and healing that current BM enjoy over anyone not BM. I dont understand what is not to like about these incoming changes. Ranked WZ, Queuing with my guild, the chance to show off my achievements and still have to have real skill and understanding of my class and role and team strategy to reach those achievements. Ok. I will wait and see. I fight the good fight for gear progression because that is what I know. However, I am aware that if mishandled it can cause problems and break the PVP system. They just need to have something reward-wise to achieve in the process of PVPing. I enjoy PV, but I also like character progression. At this point due to all prior games character progression=gear/weapons. Is this the best solution? possibly not. I just hope they are creative enough with the reward system to keep it interesting. I understand the concept of keeping a balanced playing field and especially like the idea of being able to mod the gear to your specific playstyle. These are just new waters for me. I like my MMO's with character progression. I could give a f... less about mounts and pets. This is all I am saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indelible Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Such a fallacy. Firstly they're not allowing people to buy Champion gear. They're allowing people to purchase a set between Centurion and Champion. Why? Because they're adding a fourth tier of gear that will widen the gap between entry level PvPers and top level PvPErs. That approach actually stimulates competition and works more towards establishing a healthy and competitive PvP community, because it allows people to get into PvP with decent stats that allow them to compete with the upper end of PvPers. It creates a far less tiered PvP community. The situation now is this: once you are in full centurion gear, the stat difference between you and someone else in full BM gear is negligible. You're talking a few percent, which isn't a massive difference. They get the edge, of course, but not to such a degree where your loss is even vaguely a certainty. Entry level PvPers can compete. The problem with Centurion gear is that it requires you to suffer the interim 10%+ Expertise gap. When you go in with PvE gear - regardless of the tier - and no PvP gear you are pretty much going to die endlessly. That's a problem. It takes time to get into Cent gear and in that time PvP is painful. It's not long, but it's enough to dissuade a lot of people from actually bothering. And after 1.2 that situation will continue, but it will be far less problematic. People will be able to go into PvP with entry level PvP gear, compete with the upper end of PvPers and enjoy a far more accessible and level playing field than currently. That's a GOOD thing for competition and a GOOD thing for PvP. Regarding the OPs point about 8 man queues: he's wrong. In 1.2 you will be able to queue for ranked Warzones as an 8 man group, but you won't be able to queue for non-ranked Warzones as an 8 man group. You will still be able to queue as a 4 man premade in non-ranked Warzones. This is precisely what needs to happen; it would be endlessly unfair of Bioware to allow 8-man premades to queue up against 8-man PuGs. Again this is a good thing for competition and it's a good thing for PvP. This is not a lie; a Bioware poster confirmed this yesterday. There is no time table on 8-man NAMED TEAMS for PvP, which will likely come with cross-realm PvP. Regarding the new Ranked Warzones: the new tier of PvP gear will be acquired far faster through the Ranked Warzone system; that much is a certainty. However the point of Ranked Warzones isn't to award players with advantages over those that cannot or will not compete in Ranked Warzones; that's not what we want. We just want a way to see if we're better than everyone else, which is precisely what they're doing. Additionally it's running in seasons and I imagine at the end of each season we'll get titles based on how well we do in rankings for both solo and group play, as well as special mounts and other such "awards" for being better than everyone else. Just because it's an MMO doesn't mean it needs gear progression in all arenas. It needs to be there of course, but PvP is about skill and any move to lessen the gap between those with and those without is perfectly fine in my book. More people to fight against, more people to challenge me and invariably more people to overcome and compare myself as a gamer to. In short, the OP is blowing hot air. Very little is known about Ranked Warzones at the moment so to make a thread challenging Bioware on specifics is pointless. Additionally a lot of what the OP says is based on lies, misunderstandings, the misrepresentation of facts and so forth in addition to a wildly ignorant person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmb Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 (edited) Such a fallacy. Firstly they're not allowing people to buy Champion gear. They're allowing people to purchase a set between Centurion and Champion. Why? Because they're adding a fourth tier of gear that will widen the gap between entry level PvPers and top level PvPErs. That approach actually stimulates competition and works more towards establishing a healthy and competitive PvP community, because it allows people to get into PvP with decent stats that allow them to compete with the upper end of PvPers. It creates a far less tiered PvP community. The situation now is this: once you are in full centurion gear, the stat difference between you and someone else in full BM gear is negligible. You're talking a few percent, which isn't a massive difference. They get the edge, of course, but not to such a degree where your loss is even vaguely a certainty. Entry level PvPers can compete. The problem with Centurion gear is that it requires you to suffer the interim 10%+ Expertise gap. When you go in with PvE gear - regardless of the tier - and no PvP gear you are pretty much going to die endlessly. That's a problem. It takes time to get into Cent gear and in that time PvP is painful. It's not long, but it's enough to dissuade a lot of people from actually bothering. And after 1.2 that situation will continue, but it will be far less problematic. People will be able to go into PvP with entry level PvP gear, compete with the upper end of PvPers and enjoy a far more accessible and level playing field than currently. That's a GOOD thing for competition and a GOOD thing for PvP. Regarding the OPs point about 8 man queues: he's wrong. In 1.2 you will be able to queue for ranked Warzones as an 8 man group, but you won't be able to queue for non-ranked Warzones as an 8 man group. You will still be able to queue as a 4 man premade in non-ranked Warzones. This is precisely what needs to happen; it would be endlessly unfair of Bioware to allow 8-man premades to queue up against 8-man PuGs. Again this is a good thing for competition and it's a good thing for PvP. This is not a lie; a Bioware poster confirmed this yesterday. There is no time table on 8-man NAMED TEAMS for PvP, which will likely come with cross-realm PvP. Regarding the new Ranked Warzones: the new tier of PvP gear will be acquired far faster through the Ranked Warzone system; that much is a certainty. However the point of Ranked Warzones isn't to award players with advantages over those that cannot or will not compete in Ranked Warzones; that's not what we want. We just want a way to see if we're better than everyone else, which is precisely what they're doing. Additionally it's running in seasons and I imagine at the end of each season we'll get titles based on how well we do in rankings for both solo and group play, as well as special mounts and other such "awards" for being better than everyone else. Just because it's an MMO doesn't mean it needs gear progression in all arenas. It needs to be there of course, but PvP is about skill and any move to lessen the gap between those with and those without is perfectly fine in my book. More people to fight against, more people to challenge me and invariably more people to overcome and compare myself as a gamer to. In short, the OP is blowing hot air. Very little is known about Ranked Warzones at the moment so to make a thread challenging Bioware on specifics is pointless. Additionally a lot of what the OP says is based on lies, misunderstandings, the misrepresentation of facts and so forth in addition to a wildly ignorant person. TL/DR GM posted there wasn't 8 man que'ing, another GM responded and corrected him. Type more essays. Edited March 10, 2012 by ironmb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashbrother Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Bioware fails at rated PVP to all skill / top caliber players on this game. There is no reward for being high rated, ranked pvp system is just exactly as Battlemaster rewards atm. No reward for top players, its just exactly the same situation as the pvp state now, only now you just que for ranked warzones. All players who got gear before 1.2 (champion set) was a waste. 1.2 they're releasing vendor-champion equivalent gear. Long story short, all players who grinded the RNG will be worth nothing. Ranked PVP is not ranked, because there is no rating requirement for any gear, you get ranked wz commendations. Battlemaster has no effect 1.2, all players will be able to get BM with no requirements. NO 8 MAN PVP QUES, it's still 4 man ranked que. At the end of the day, bioware doesn't want the top players rewarded for excelling in PVP. At the end of the day they're pushing the top tier skill players back to WOW. At the end of the day for 1.2, any top skill caliber player will have the same gear as a mediocre clicker/keyturner, with no rewards for the higher rated players. In short since this game is not about winning or losing since you get the same rewards for losing games, ranked war zones will be the same as regular war zones. Kids farming medals and doing nothing else while losing. There will be rewards of some kind, just not with gear. We'll probably get titles or speeders or something like that which is fine with me because it will allow me to stroke my epeen. I don't care if everyone is in the same gear statwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltaminus Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 All players who got gear before 1.2 (champion set) was a waste. 1.2 they're releasing vendor-champion equivalent gear. Long story short, all players who grinded the RNG will be worth nothing. Oh look, they caved to forum QQ again. I'm glad there are other MMOs that will just as gladly have my money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowOfVey Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 OP'd advantages wreck it. However, if the tier differences 60-70-80-90-100 have the same diferences as cent-champ-BM then it wouldnt be a big deal. Ranked PV gear could just have a minimal stat upgrade with multiple cosmetic options. This i do not feel would wreck anything. Gear "upgrade" doesnt need to be as dramatic as what everyone makes out. I will grind for a set that has +1 to my stats just because its an upgrade. Agree. Having something to shoot for adds to the pvp alot even if the benefits are minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fendergibson Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 After the news on how bad rated warzones will be, lots of people have cancelled on my server, and our largest and best pvp guild who were going to focus on organized pvp disbanded yesterday :/ Bioware is truly killing their own game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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