RuQu Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 i have a guild for you on Hedarr Soongh if interested With the Legacy announcements my guild was compelled to roll a sister guild on our server. The teaser about content that will require a character of both factions sort of destroyed the idea of an Imp server and Rep server for us. Now I just wish the two guilds could communicate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yazule Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 With the Legacy announcements my guild was compelled to roll a sister guild on our server. The teaser about content that will require a character of both factions sort of destroyed the idea of an Imp server and Rep server for us. Now I just wish the two guilds could communicate. that both factions thing was a daydream, he stated clearly that there was nothing in the works, just a neat idea... but chasing daydreams is ok... just sayin, i am so worth playing with, that would be your legacy muah! doubt i will switch servers either for my rep alts too fyi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmaxuk Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I've healed all bosses, at all levels, and have tried crit/surge & alacrity/power. In the end I went with the latter. Why - power was a good overall heal increase and increased cast speed (at about 1.65 seconds for rapid scan) allowed me to use rapid shots more and more. Rapid shots are awesome to. Raid buffed crits for 400 at tick and is free. Allows me to manage heat and still output a average 600-1000 heal. Fact is no class can just constantly cast 100% of the time, so speed and controlled bursts I found are the way to go. You need a bit of experience to time your heals and know boss attacks though. With experience raw throughput wins over hoping for crit heals, most of which often over heal or another healer beats you to the heal and you end up cancelling it anyways. Jadenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewert Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Being on my 2.5 inch mobile now so wont even try quoting. RuQu, reason why I state the obvious is because you have lost sight of it. As well as your logic keeps on failing to see what is important, apparently, as you fail to understand most of the points. Math alone is useless in analysis. Logic is the cornerstone of all analytical results. I guess when I get home I'll just java up a simple heal rotation sim if your sheets don't have one for infinite <40 cycle. That is the only really problematic one not doable in a minute or two of spreadsheeting. And no matter what you think how complex the sim needs to be, the only answers really needed are regarding alacrity: How much overall max healing lost How much burst ability gained The crit/surge question, while a sim might "show something", can be boiled down to one thing: worst case scenario. The above poster showed the result from gaming experience, similar to my own (of nearly two decades of healing mmorpgs), of how to value big spiky heals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yazule Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 How much overall max healing lost How much burst ability gained totally agree, but don't forget to add time consumed for same healing (which gives "free time" equivalent for moving out of aoe, cleansing etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Being on my 2.5 inch mobile now so wont even try quoting. RuQu, reason why I state the obvious is because you have lost sight of it. As well as your logic keeps on failing to see what is important, apparently, as you fail to understand most of the points. Math alone is useless in analysis. Logic is the cornerstone of all analytical results. I guess when I get home I'll just java up a simple heal rotation sim if your sheets don't have one for infinite <40 cycle. That is the only really problematic one not doable in a minute or two of spreadsheeting. And no matter what you think how complex the sim needs to be, the only answers really needed are regarding alacrity: How much overall max healing lost How much burst ability gained The crit/surge question, while a sim might "show something", can be boiled down to one thing: worst case scenario. The above poster showed the result from gaming experience, similar to my own (of nearly two decades of healing mmorpgs), of how to value big spiky heals... Simply increase the duration setting beyond 300 (I think the max was set at 600 for 10 minutes, but I don't remember. It was more of a concern for Scoundrels since they have RNG and need to be done numerous times and averaged) and set your RSc threshold at 40 and HSc in SCG threshold at 40. I believe there is also a burst button that assumes you start at 30 CSC with all cooldowns and has a max time of 30s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malleable Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 No, number two is incorrect which then makes number 3 incorrect and thus invalidates even point 4. The OP specifically says he redid his numbers as a result of plyaing his commando and he hasn't converted the numbers over to BH yet. Thus nothing that forum poster said made the OP change his mind. So I would add a (-100) to you for missing the obvious. There is no logical reason why "number two" must be incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewert Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 totally agree, but don't forget to add time consumed for same healing (which gives "free time" equivalent for moving out of aoe, cleansing etc) Those are already inherent in the two values. The bigger your burst ability, the more time you can allow for a dip in healing output to recover back to non-life-threatening situation. The final value is the single heal fired off value, which comes purely off alacrity (power surge and ES nonwithstanding), and thus requires zero statistical observation, merely the realization it exists (as in alacrity may double or triple your reaction window, or your "can I get this heal off first"-window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yazule Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Those are already inherent in the two values. The bigger your burst ability, the more time you can allow for a dip in healing output to recover back to non-life-threatening situation. The final value is the single heal fired off value, which comes purely off alacrity (power surge and ES nonwithstanding), and thus requires zero statistical observation, merely the realization it exists (as in alacrity may double or triple your reaction window, or your "can I get this heal off first"-window. I agree it is inherantly obvious when stated BUT if compairing crit/surge vs alacrity/power you have to quantify it or the comparison always skews to crit/surge i personally have always been a fan of consistancy and speed over unreliable bursting (ever since EQ where i was enough of a healer to have my click stick epic) Throughput>burst imo but from what i have read you and I are on the same plane with that one. end of the day both are viable, just the crit/surge camp sometimes look like a champ, sometimes look like a chump but the power/alacrity guys are just "stout" and tanks love consistency, esp after playing for a while, they know their limits very clearly and that my friend is priceless. I cant stand the "well if we get lucky we can heal through this boss fight" conversations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmaxuk Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I've healed all bosses, at all levels, and have tried crit/surge & alacrity/power. In the end I went with the latter. Why - power was a good overall heal increase and increased cast speed (at about 1.65 seconds for rapid scan) allowed me to use rapid shots more and more. Rapid shots are awesome to. Raid buffed crits for 400 at tick and is free. Allows me to manage heat and still output a average 600-1000 heal. Fact is no class can just constantly cast 100% of the time, so speed and controlled bursts I found are the way to go. You need a bit of experience to time your heals and know boss attacks though. With experience raw throughput wins over hoping for crit heals, most of which often over heal or another healer beats you to the heal and you end up cancelling it anyways. Jadenn Trying not to repeat my above post, the whole argument against alacrity is it's negative effect on resource management when bursting continuously. Whilst resource management is a large part of healing for mercs et al it in large part comes down to the player, boss fight and raiding roll. Now I'm no math geek and I'm not going to give you spread sheets and models. Arguably our rotation, mine at least, tends to be: - kolto shell (for healing buff) - kolto missile (for healing buff) - HS (for armour buff/RS buff/HOT) - then wait (fire a free rapid shot) .... YES WAIT ... Why you ask? Well the answer is so simple that I'm sure everyone knows already, the tank is almost certainly at 100% hp. The next bit, the whole fight in fact, is now reactionary and, for me personally, this is where alacrity and power shine above surge and crit Cast speed (alacrity) allows the caster to react to damage faster, on average 0.4 seconds faster because of increased cast speed. This reduces the chance another healer has picked up the heal in your absence, spike damage on the tank and allows you more chance to throw a free rapid shot in post HS, kolto shell/missile, or RS. Stable, quick reactionary healing mitigates the need for big burst heals or having to spam several abilities in quick succession and rapid shots become a top off ability that replaces RS/HS. Power allows a more sustained throughput over crit and surge, and if healers / dps are good the need for large 6k heals are vastly mitigated. It comes down to you at the end of the day. You can choose ignore my experiences over you own, try out alacrity / power and see how it goes or voice another opinion. I'm just giving you my experiences and not cleaver models based on simulated scenarios. N/b - I wasn't trying to be overly critical of modelling, it helps formulate a theoretical picture but often it's practical application can be different. Regards Jadenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Alacrity is the worst stat in the game, however if your talent template doesn't include the 4% alacrity bonus, having alacrity in earpiece and implants is enough to make up for it and a little more, I would only go as far as 5% to 7%, nothing higher than that or you'll start losing on other stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmaxuk Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Alacrity is the worst stat in the game, however if your talent template doesn't include the 4% alacrity bonus, having alacrity in earpiece and implants is enough to make up for it and a little more, I would only go as far as 5% to 7%, nothing higher than that or you'll start losing on other stats. Way I see it is the only stat I give up as healing merc is crit, as surge is basically useless at high levels and I'm yet to see a crit / power enhancement. Also regarding surge, I more than make up for it in additional power and heal as hard as crit/surge stackers.. Finally balancing both sets is is fine but I did this through the ear piece and implants (surge / crit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewert Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Alacrity is the worst stat in the game, however if your talent template doesn't include the 4% alacrity bonus, having alacrity in earpiece and implants is enough to make up for it and a little more, I would only go as far as 5% to 7%, nothing higher than that or you'll start losing on other stats. Actually pretty sure surge is the worst stat in the game, for bg... Even mathematically, if you compare high values, but especially when one accounts overhealing. Power is quite fast better than surge, relatively close or with high gear better than crit, so yeah as couple above have said, 100% certain increase trumps spiky overheals. Alacrity is the best burst stat, by far. By FAR. Power / alacrity is where it's at. I'm RE'ing for vehemence imps now to replace my crit heavy ones (power for crit swap worth 80 points), even though it will be nearly "worthless" overall, but it's one more thing less for rng to mess up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Actually pretty sure surge is the worst stat in the game, for bg... Even mathematically, if you compare high values, but especially when one accounts overhealing. Power is quite fast better than surge, relatively close or with high gear better than crit, so yeah as couple above have said, 100% certain increase trumps spiky overheals. Alacrity is the best burst stat, by far. By FAR. Power / alacrity is where it's at. I'm RE'ing for vehemence imps now to replace my crit heavy ones (power for crit swap worth 80 points), even though it will be nearly "worthless" overall, but it's one more thing less for rng to mess up.Stacking power on my assassin is a godsend even as a tank spec, I'm working on remodding my healing operative's suit which includes ~500 power although it could go higher than that I think. But if your crit % is high around 35% (my oper's sitting at around 40% after the IA buff) then increasing surge is ideal since you don't need that much anymore to hit 75% surge (around 240) and I can get big fat crit heals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewert Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Stacking power on my assassin is a godsend even as a tank spec, I'm working on remodding my healing operative's suit which includes ~500 power although it could go higher than that I think. But if your crit % is high around 35% (my oper's sitting at around 40% after the IA buff) then increasing surge is ideal since you don't need that much anymore to hit 75% surge (around 240) and I can get big fat crit heals. By your numbers it seems you have near zero alacrity and you are an agent, so can't say much about that as I only know BH healing well. Thus kinda besides the point of this discussion. I guess agents with their Hots get a bit more out of surge than BH, but Hots suck overall anyways tbh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) By your numbers it seems you have near zero alacrity and you are an agent, so can't say much about that as I only know BH healing well. Thus kinda besides the point of this discussion. I guess agents with their Hots get a bit more out of surge than BH, but Hots suck overall anyways tbh... It has 7% alacrity right now, I'm working on getting rid of those unneeded mods from the cent/champ field medic suit. I will be able to keep the ~4.5% alacrity from earpiece/implants once I'm done since I didn't pick up the 4% alacrity bonus talent. Edited March 15, 2012 by Sookster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crestlin Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Not to derail the healing train here, but over the past month as a arsenal merc I have revisited alacrity and found it to be managable heat wise. There are occasions that you spike heat rapidly due to poor lineup on procs, but otherwise it is quite nice. I am running 240 alacrity, 200 surge, 200 crit, ~500 power with the static 4% talent and 5% proc(pretty much static) with much success. My original idea on alacrity was that it would just be unsustainable due to heat and I have been happily proven wrong. I can't wait for logs to verify and get some concrete evidence that proves dps increase over 0 alacrity setup! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yazule Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Alacrity is the worst stat in the game, however if your talent template doesn't include the 4% alacrity bonus, having alacrity in earpiece and implants is enough to make up for it and a little more, I would only go as far as 5% to 7%, nothing higher than that or you'll start losing on other stats. i would think for a healer accuracy would be the most useless of the stats, and funny how it works out, accuracy and alacrity seem to be in the same locations on gear *shrug* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vimm Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I notice you omit, or are blind to, the word "constructive" that precedes criticism. "I was right all along! You are clearly an idiot!" is not particularly helpful to anyone, and doesn't really warrant a response. "Models are worthless!" is again not very useful, and someone of this opinion is unlikely to care about the results of any models, nor have anything useful to contribute to improving them. I can list the names from memory of the people I've had to respond to in this manner. One has apologized for his delivery and started providing useful feedback. The other, like you, thinks math is the worst thing ever and prefers to rely on "feelings" about what is best. I can't model your feelings. I also have better uses of my time than continuing to argue with people who never learned to express themselves in a mature fashion. I can give them the benefit of the doubt and reply a couple of times, but if they insist on useless, childish posts filled only with ramblings, insults, and feelings, then, frankly, there are better uses of my time. You want to provide criticism, then do so, but do it like an adult. The purpose here is to make something that is useful for the community. It takes a lot of time on my part, and I get nothing out of it. If you think that it produces a worthless result, then list something that would be useful. You say Alacrity was always clearly useful. What metric did you use for that? Any? Just your feelings? You don't like my model. What's wrong with it? Disagree with the rotation? The logic? The concept that such a thing could exist? Provide alternatives. Disagree with the math? Which equation? What's wrong with it? Doesn't match what you see in game? What doesn't? What factors influence that effect in game? List them so we can see if they are included in the model. Don't agree with my current choice of metric? What do you suggest instead? The above are just a small example of ways you can criticize my work while paving the way for it to improve. Anything else is just you trying to tear something down to build yourself up. It's petty, childish, and unworthy of a response. As such, any further responses from you that insist on being non-constructive will simply be ignored. Anytime you want to actually contribute, I'm open to the criticism. Are you sure you have better uses for your time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempestasSilva Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Are you sure you have better uses for your time? There are better uses for our oxygen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivaed Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) I dunno why all the hate and arguments are flying around here. As long as you have the Set Bonuses from the combat medic set and you are not a complete moron about managing your heat, you are going to succeed. Raiding in this game is ridiculously easy. It's much more casual than many other MMOs. You cant really go wrong. If you want to stack Crit/Power/Alacrity/Surge/Whatever go right ahead. It's not going to make or break your heals. Do which one appeals to you more and you can still win as long as you have your Aim high and your spec ironed out. Edited March 16, 2012 by Ivaed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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