PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[allexj]

i vote yes cepted no dps meters or anything like that. its going to be vary hard to crak the game rolls system and use it to our advantage without a combat log and the flying numbers are vary buggy. so yes to combat log only.

[nexusbob]

NO and NO - we dont need it - thes game is to easy as it is dont need the crap - and if u cant play wed out then go play PAC-MAN

[Valceanu]

I voted NO... for many of the resons previously discussed and while i get that they may be irrelevant to some, they are important to others. Some people just cant grasp that. What is the point of asking the people that are against them "what are you afraid of?" ... who says im afraid of anything?... its a matter of choice and id prefer it not be taken out of my hands. Let me make a simple analogy:

 

Would you like everyone knowing the size of your "instrument"? Would you like it to be plain to see and known by all?? ... probably not. Its a private matter. You may have a large "instrument" or a small one but that doesnt entitle anyone to know about it. If someone asks to see it and you show them...its your own choice. Its not a matter of being afraid of anything, its a matter of privacy.

 

Its the same with numbers in MMO's. For instance, my numbers belong and represent MY character just like my "instrument" belongs to me. Its my choice if i want everyone else to know about them or not just like its my choice if i want to tell people the size of my "instrument" or not. Some people like bragging, others dont.

 

Bottom line...if you want to know my numbers for a specific purpose like a raid group, ill tell/show you assuming i want to join. If i refuse just dont invite me. Its that easy. Nothing gives you the right to snoop on me though.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Valceanu

[mufutiz]

Yes combat logs have served primary purposes in games .. to divide gaming communities based on numbers, to take the fun out of learning to play for many, to exclude many and to put many off mmo gaming ...

 

the amount of ignorance you guys display is astounding.

 

a combat log is not a dps meter addon or whatever you immediately associate with the word 'combat log' .

 

But obviously, people who have no grasp about how valuable a combat log is, will just ramble on about how their egos got hurt when faced with some cold, hard, inconvenient strings of data.

 

maybe it will sink in if I repeat it a second time, I doubt it but worth a shot - a real time combat log displaying your characters combat actions is not a dps meter. It does not show you anything other than what your own character did and what was done to your own character.

 

It is just a run-of-the-mill combat log like the one supplied with every other mmo you guys might have possibly played before and will potentially play long after swtor is history.

Edited March 9, 2012 by mufutiz

[SorienHashan]

Decent player?? *** is that exactly? someone who takes on a toon the same way they would take on a second job?..study.. numbercrunch research via forums and utube? is that the definition of a decent player?

 

Or is it one who knows that they are undergeared or geaered enough, Knows they should stay out of things that hurt you , that they feel they have to work on XYZ just by seeing their own performance or talking to others about it etc etc etc

 

 

Yes combat logs have served primary purposes in games .. to divide gaming communities based on numbers, to take the fun out of learning to play for many, to exclude many and to put many off mmo gaming ...

 

This is what I don't get..

 

There's only so much you can improve without having more tools available to you. There have always been divides in gaming communities. In everquest before WoW damage meters didn't exist but hardcore guilds with strict recruitment policies did. There has always been a divide between casual and hardcore players and there always will be. It's just seen more prominently in MMO's because we all share the same space.

 

Everquest functioned differently from WoW or SWTOR. A hardcore player wasn't someone who had the best numbers it was someone who was always on at the drop of a dime because boss mobs could spawn at any time in a very large window. Games now don't work like that we get to choose when we raid now and now hardcore is defined by who plays their class the best. Even though hardcore is defined differently between the 2 games it's essentially the same thing, the people who can play 8-10 hours a day to work on their char and the people who can't.

 

Even back then the people who weren't hardcore had their own guilds and the people who were had theirs. They didn't all mix together, they could be best friends IRL but they understood that they weren't going to be doing the same content together or even be in the same guilds. Basically what I'm trying to say is this divide that you think happened because of DPS meters has actually always existed and it always will.

 

Casual or Hardcore we're all gaming in this little world and most likely you know which one you are. Regardless of what you are though everybody can gain from DPS Meters. It won't suddenly make it so you can't discover and grow with your character it will just give you another tool to help do it.

[Monfort]

This entire train wreck thread shows exactly why I like the way BW is giving us combat logs.

 

The OP is clearly unhappy the poll hasn't gone his way. He is consistently rude and denigrating to any one who doesn't agree with him. He and his supporters consistently say that anyone who doesn't want full combat logs are bad players, players who don't want to improve, are afraid of what the logs might show, are holding back the game, and are afraid of being exposed as leechers. He consistently states that anyone who doesn't play exactly as he does is a bad player. He constantly berates people who like the way BW is implementing combat logs.

 

But at the same time he claims he isn't hard core or elitist. But yet it's play his way or be a bad player. Not everyone plays games to be L33t or uber. Not every player is a min/maxer intent on being the top 1% DPSer on his server. Not everyone cares about that, or showing of some epeen. Some play games for fun and relaxation.

 

That is exactly the elitist attitude that exists in WOW and other MMOs, fueled primarily by combat logs and gearscores. This is exactly the attitude I would rather not see in this game.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Monfort

[mufutiz]

This is what I don't get..

 

There's only so much you can improve without having more tools available to you. There have always been divides in gaming communities. In everquest before WoW damage meters didn't exist but hardcore guilds with strict recruitment policies did. There has always been a divide between casual and hardcore players and there always will be. It's just seen more prominently in MMO's because we all share the same space.

 

Bioware is approaching this in a really genius way actually.

 

The community will not be divided because before too long all the not-so-casual players that even stuck around until now will have been alienated and moved on to greener pastures. Easy!

Edited March 9, 2012 by mufutiz

[moowart]

the amount of ignorance you guys display is astounding.

 

a combat log is not a dps meter addon or whatever you immediately associate with the word 'combat log' .

 

But obviously, people who have no grasp about how valuable a combat log is, will just ramble on about how their egos got hurt when faced with some cold, hard, inconvenient strings of data.

 

maybe it will sink in if I repeat it a second time, I doubt it but worth a shot - a real time combat log displaying your characters combat actions is not a dps meter. It does not show you anything other than what your own character did and what was done to your own character.

 

It is just a run-of-the-mill combat log like the one supplied with every other mmo you guys might have possibly played before and will potentially play long after swtor is history.

 

Dont assume to know me or who I am .. your personal comments are unwarrented and unwanted. Combat logs have caused divide and arguments in places I have been ... they are not too unlike dps meters .. the kind of info you are asking for might be good for those who want a second job .. but not for all

 

if peeps are new at gaming or cannot see the green or red ooze in front of them then tell them what they are doing wrong .. chances are it prolly killed em ... If u are undergeared you will not clear the content you are trying to clear.. that simple

 

 

Problem is when grinders who see themselves as hard core use the info they have to put others down .. and like in every other mmo that uses either dps meters or combat logs .. these putdowns are a fact of life

[mufutiz]

This entire train wreck thread shows exactly why I like the way BW is giving us combat logs.

 

The OP is clearly unhappy the poll hasn't gone his way. He is consistently rude and denigrating to any one who doesn't agree with him. He and his supporters consistently say that anyone who doesn't want full combat logs are bad players, players who don't want to improve, are afraid of what the logs might show, are holding back the game, and are afraid of being exposed as leechers. He consistently states that anyone who doesn't play exactly as he does is a bad player. He constantly berates people who like the way BW is implementing combat logs.

 

 

and the naysayers call the supporters rude elitists, seeking combat logs in this game for the sole purpose of feeding on making the game experience of others miserable.

 

get over yourselves, seriously.

 

and again combat log DOES NOT EQUAL DPS METER

 

 

I know, on both sidews of the fence people seem to completely disregard the fact that at the very core of the problem there is the absence of a combat log in this game. And a combat log usually IS personal data only to begin with.

 

There must be a cleaner way to deny the data to be read out for parsers other than completely disabling the combat log alltogether.

 

But no combat log in a game like this is just mind-boggling to me...

Edited March 9, 2012 by mufutiz

[Valceanu]

Bioware is approaching this in a really genius way actually.

 

The community will not be divided because before too long all the not-so-casual players that even stuck around until now will have been alienated and moved on to greener pastures. Easy!

 

the grass is always seems greener on the other side. Dont kid yourself though... it will always taste like ***** anywhere you go.

 

What i dont understand is why people whine about how BW approached this. You get all the data you need about your own character so you can improve and all that. You can ask people for their data when you make a raid group or whatever. If they want to give it fine, if not, like i said before...dont invite them. What you cant do is spam chat with your ISOAWSOME dps meters that nobody cares about. You cant invade peoples privacy...etc. Just group with like minded people and stick with your prejudices if thats what makes you happy.

 

The little bit of inconvenience this system creates saves a lot of trouble down the road. Its win-win from where i stand.

[Matte_Black]

NO

 

BioWare got the level of compromise right on this one.

 

 

It's more about not forcing the statistcal discussion into the foreground of people's experience than it is "hiding" stats that aren't currently accessible. Many don't want to share their performance for a number of reasons but, many of us just don't want to play among ongoing discussions and arguments pertaining to that performance.

 

Yes, the game is supported by various formulas but, it's about in-game events in our characters' plotlines. I rather not tear away the it's intended facade so a small minority can do what they want quickly and conveniently.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Matte_Black

[mufutiz]

the grass is always seems greener on the other side. Dont kid yourself though... it will always taste like ***** anywhere you go.

 

What i dont understand is why people whine about how BW approached this. You get all the data you need about your own character so you can improve and all that. You can ask people for their data when you make a raid group or whatever. If they want to give it fine, if not, like i said before...dont invite them. What you cant do is spam chat with your ISOAWSOME dps meters that nobody cares about. You cant invade peoples privacy...etc. Just group with like minded people and stick with your prejudices if thats what makes you happy.

 

The little bit of inconvenience this system creates saves a lot of trouble down the road. Its win-win from where i stand.

 

comments like this really do make me want to cry.

 

I don't know how to explain it to you any more clearly than in what I wrote before.

 

You guys always claim in other games you played "combat logs destroyed the community".

Install that game client of one of those games. Log in. Look at your chat tab, click on the chat header titled "combat [log]" or similar. then you will understand what a combat log is.

 

It's not a dps meter. It's personal. Not about other players.

dps meters might have caused trouble with the community. combat logs are purely personal.

Edited March 9, 2012 by mufutiz

[Monfort]

and the naysayers call the supporters rude elitists, seeking combat logs in this game for the sole purpose of feeding on making the game experience of others miserable.

 

get over yourselves, seriously.

 

and again combat log DOES NOT EQUAL DPS METER

 

 

I know, on both sidews of the fence people seem to completely disregard the fact that at the very core of the problem there is the absence of a combat log in this game. And a combat log usually IS personal data only to begin with.

 

There must be a cleaner way to deny the data to be read out for parsers other than completely disabling the combat log alltogether.

 

But no combat log in a game like this is just mind-boggling to me...

 

 

 

You brand your self as elitist with your attitude towards any one who disagrees with you.

[Taroen]

NO

 

BioWare got the level of compromise right on this one.

 

 

It's more about not forcing the statistcal discussion into the foreground of people's experience than it is "hiding" stats that aren't currently accessible. Many don't want to share their performance for a number of reasons but, many of us just don't want to play among ongoing discussions and arguments pertaining to that performance.

 

Yes, the game is supported by various formulas but, it's about in-game events in our characters' plotlines. I rather not tear away the it's intended facade so a small minority can do what they want quickly and conveniently.

 

Only ONE possible reason for that one,...

[Taroen]

You brand your self as elitist with your attitude towards any one who disagrees with you.

 

And you have the nerve to cry that other people are rude..? You naysayers are the most rude of all.

[Beefyfeeb]

People who are against combat logs are bad, plain and simple.

[Tiddex]

When I go through all the arguments of the pro-combat-log side, there is only one I can not outweigh - that these people look at this picture and see a whole lot of fun:

 

http://www.chip.de/ii/7/6/3/9/4/8/2/a30d415a1197d17e.jpg

 

All I can see is a game stripped down to its core, the raw numbers. Maths that, though they are essential to the game´s concept, originally were carefully hidden to the user to make this a game and not a spread-sheet-driven pen and paper on steroids.

 

I know that you can argue that this is what it really is. But it is not what I would pay 15 bucks for.

 

I already have a job, and the numbers I have to deal with really MEAN something. I want to play a game, find the world it is set in compelling and not pretend it was science.

 

Some people seem to think it would be a more elaborate, professional and adult way to play the game. They are right in a strange kind of way but for the same reason the rest of us dislikes the feature. Because we look at the same screen and find it ridiculously overdone, boring in its professionality and childish in its ambition for significance.

 

We could call that a question of taste and leave it like that - as far as BW is concerned I would even argue that they as a developer do not need another argument.

 

If it is all about taste, why not let everyone have the freedom to play the game like he prefers it? Shall those who love to min/max have their fun, we can opt out if we don´t want to, right?

 

But there is another argument - you can not allow combat logs and the tools that would hit the game in consequence without changing the game for everybody.

 

Does anyone deny, that the existence of combat logs would affect the way ALL of us play the game? It would not happen instantly, but as soon as players have maxed their dps every new content rolled out would have to be hard enough to be a challenge for the members of the spread-sheet order.

 

So for those of you who love that screen above so much, who don´t feel that their toon is never as complete as when zoomed down to a 20-pixel-dwarf surrounded by the stunning beauty of pie charts, blooming in all colours of the rainbow: I can feel your passion. But I kindly ask you to admit, that we are talking about too different games.

 

Games that in my eyes and in the eyes of a vast majority of this community can not coexist.

[Drewser]

It really is this simple.

 

A lie the first time it was written and still a lie now.

[Valceanu]

comments like this really do make me want to cry.

 

I don't know how to explain it to you any more clearly than in what I wrote before.

 

You guys always claim in other games you played "combat logs destroyed the community".

Install that game client of one of those games. Log in. Look at your chat tab, click on the chat header titled "combat [log]" or similar. then you will understand what a combat log is.

 

It's not a dps meter. It's personal. Not about other players.

dps meters might have caused trouble with the community. combat logs are purely personal.

 

oh you know all too well that dps meters go hand in hand with combat logs. But lets just ignore that fact for a moment. Why does it bother you that you have to alt-tab in order to see it??? .. if its that much of a problem for ya im sorry.

 

Personally im interested in combat logs in the sense that it shows me stuff about my character only...not interested in anyone elses. If someone wants to share info and discuss fine, and if not, its all the same to me.

[mufutiz]

You brand your self as elitist with your attitude towards any one who disagrees with you.

 

I don't have a bad attitude towards anyone just because he disagrees with me. Which is not important to you of course because you obviously don't apply your own standards to yourself.

 

I just have a low tolerance for and tend to disagree with complete and utter ****** . I will admit to that.

 

so I guess between you and me we will just have to agree to disagree. no harm done.

Edited March 9, 2012 by mufutiz

[Valceanu]

Only ONE possible reason for that one,...

 

i agree... for me that ONE is that i dont want people to see my numbers because they are so awesome that im afraid others might think less of themselves after seeing them.

[mufutiz]

All I can see is a game stripped down to its core, the raw numbers. Maths that, though they are essential to the game´s concept, originally were carefully hidden to the user to make this a game and not a spread-sheet-driven pen and paper on steroids.

 

mmorpgs are ALL about the numbers as far as combat is concerned.

by the way - the simple, little combat log is not even visible in that screenshot.

 

If you just want to enjoy the game beyond - do it.

 

if you want to dig deeper into the combat, group up with like minded individuals and meet up week after week after week to beat that boss down, you WILL care about the numbers. Or why would you put yourself through weeks,months of repeating the same content over and over again?

 

Tell me exactly - if you don't care about the higher numbers on the gear pieces you will collect, why are you wasting so much of your time running the same content week after week after week, beating the same bosses to loot the same pieces of epic gear week after week?

 

Because repetition is fun or because you want to see your character grow? And by that we are talking about the numbers on the character sheet and the big numbers that pop up when you hit something, right?

 

I already have a job, and the numbers I have to deal with really MEAN something. I want to play a game, find the world it is set in compelling and not pretend it was science.

Who's stopping you again?

 

 

Some people seem to think it would be a more elaborate, professional and adult way to play the game. They are right in a strange kind of way but for the same reason the rest of us dislikes the feature. Because we look at the same screen and find it ridiculously overdone, boring in its professionality and childish in its ambition for significance.

 

easy. Disable all that junk and enjoy the game your way. You're free to do so.

Edited March 9, 2012 by mufutiz

[Taroen]

A lie the first time it was written and still a lie now.

 

So why do you keep doing it...?

[ferroz]

Actually I have a very good reason and I have exhibited very good reasoning skills. My statement stands.

actually, you posted a response that contains emotional language but no actual reasons...

 

The current planned implementation of a personal combat log will give those who require a comprehensive log the option, albeit with some difficulty, to combine those into a comprehensive log.

No, those combined logs have the potential to be tampered with, which makes them useless for some things. So it does not give those those people everything they need and want; it gives them some of what they need and want.

 

Thus, I feel the personal combat log implementation is the most optimal.

Certainly not. Giving one side what it wants and side giving the other not what it wants isn't optimal.

 

An open log where you have the ability to opt out (flag: make my data private) would actually give both sides what they want... while the personal one does not. So the former is a more optimal solution than the latter.

[ferroz]

It's not a dps meter. It's personal. Not about other players.

dps meters might have caused trouble with the community. combat logs are purely personal.

In most games, the combat logs aren't personal.